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Nvidia RTX Discussion

K.O.Kiki

A new era in 3D graphics stands before us.

First-gen Raytracing GPUs:

Nvidia "Turing" - Quadro RTX 5000 / 6000 / 8000 (US$ 2'300 / 6'300 / 10'000)

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13214/nvidia-reveals-next-gen-turing-gpu-architecture
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13217/nvidia-announces-turing-powered-quadro-rtx-family

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tuxy

Sure but the 20xx label has value for some people until the next gen is released. Why else would people order 2080 and 2070 cards?

cursai

tuxy wrote: »

Sure but the 20xx label has value for some people until the next gen is released. Why else would people order 2080 and 2070 cards?

Sheep?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

tuxy wrote: »

Sure but the 20xx label has value for some people until the next gen is released. Why else would people order 2080 and 2070 cards?

Cause they are faster.

Cause the have more features.

Cause the run cool and low noise.

Cause they have USB C controllers on board.

Cause the have faster memory. Better HDR support.

Cause they 4k.

Cause Nvlink seems to scale well.

Cause the cost the same as the previous generation with more performance.

Cause your not thick enough to buy a last gen card for the same money. Like why would you? 1080 = 2070, 1080ti = 2080, 2080ti = Titan V. The 2080ti is actually the value king compared to the titan but that another story.

Cause you realise that getting flogged all the old stock and making you think your the smartest tech person ever is the sheep being herded. I am really beginning to think people are being mind controlled at this stage, logic has gone, and the weird maths around the prices. Why dont you guys want the new features, there is no downside. The next series of cards wont make any appearance until at least Q4 2019 and more likely Q2 2020. At that time your new 1080ti's will be 4 year old tech...dinosaur stuff.

As for the 181 plate car, the actual analogy is that your neighbour bought a 161 car...brand new, for the same price as the equivalent model 181 car thats the new model, with more features, faster, and better technology. He insists on constantly telling you that his was the better purchase, cause yours is only a little faster, or his was a tiny bit cheaper, and all you are interested in is the number plate and having a new car, despite the fact he got his after you, just decided the old model was more his style and the dealership had a ton of these "desirable" old models motors in stock.

TerrorFirmer

You own shares in Nvidia or something?

Someone literally posted about getting an RTX2070 at £599. It was pointed out that you can get a 1080Ti new also for that price, and frankly you'd be mad to pick a 2070 over a 1080Ti.

And, prices are now dropping, but let's not forget the original launch prices of the RTX2080 either? So you can talk all about sheep and lack of logic as you want, but you were back defending these cards as a great deal even when they were significantly more expensive than the previous gen, and despite barely being faster at higher price points for a new generation (RTX2070 v 1080, 2080 v 1080Ti).

RTX2080, a new generation card, is still £100 more than the 1080ti....and there's no point banging on about Ray Tracing because a) not available and b) unproven if the card can even delivered anyway decent RT performance.

But what about the tensor cores on the 2070, Shadow of the Tomb raider patch could be out this side of Christmas!

Of course - move over RDR2, this is the game people will be returning to pour 100s of hours into over the holiday season when that patch drops! (God willing, it's not delayed)

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Cause your not thick enough

Fitz, don't be calling people who disagree with you idiots. It's not necessary, and it sucks some of the fun out of talking about this stuff.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

As for the 181 plate car, the actual analogy is that your neighbour bought a 161 car...brand new, for the same price as the equivalent model 181 car thats the new model, with more features, faster, and better technology. He insists on constantly telling you that his was the better purchase, cause yours is only a little faster, or his was a tiny bit cheaper, and all you are interested in is the number plate and having a new car, despite the fact he got his after you, just decided the old model was more his style and the dealership had a ton of these "desirable" old models motors in stock.

It's a lot more like your neighbour bought a new BMW that includes a Nespresso style coffee-maker. You've yet to see him make a coffee with it because nobody is selling the pods. You can't even understand why he wants a car that makes coffee, let alone pay a premium for one. You'll wait and see if coffee-making catches on, then buy a dedicated coffee maker when you need one.

Your neighbour then never shuts up about how he can't understand why you bought a coffee-maker-less car for 3/4 the price of the exciting new equivalent. I mean, you're missing out on the new features

btkm8unsl0w5r4

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

You own shares in Nvidia or something?

Actually I do have a few in Nvidia, but I have a few in AMD too. The way to make money from the mining craze was in Nvidia stock.

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Someone literally posted about getting an RTX2070 at £599. It was pointed out that you can get a 1080Ti new also for that price,

Ya see this is the problem on the thread that has everyone confused. The figures are being chosen to represent peoples views not the average pricing. 2070 are 459 gbp at the moment. Chap posts link to worlds most expensive 2070 and that a reason to recommend worlds cheapest 1080ti. Thats the reason the RTX is not good value?

At its proper price the 2070 makes a lot of sense, and to be honest at 600 gbb shelling out the 90 extra pounds is probably worth it to get the 2080 and have access to the new tech and a average 7% performance improvement over the 1080ti, irregardless....I am hoping that repetition is they way explain my point.

Regarding a car with a coffee maker, if I could get that I would buy it. However if its was also faster than the old model, more efficient and with a chance that it can make icecream in the future I would be quids in. Hell I might even pay a little more. People buy track cars all the time, that are great on the road. Just because they never bring it on the track does not negate all the other good things, and if and when the person decides its track time they can do that too.

L wrote: »

Fitz, don't be calling people who disagree with you idiots. It's not necessary, and it sucks some of the fun out of talking about this stuff.

I didnt say that you did....straw man much?..I mearly suggested that people are too smart to fall for the obvious echo chamber stuff that has people clambering to clear out the last gen tailings from Nvidia stockroom.I am having great fun, are you not? Unfortunatly nobody want to take about RTX here, on the RTX thread, they only want to reccomend good old pascal.

Shlippery

Lads, yer doing nothing for making my purchase easier :P I'm so conflicted!

my pros for RTX2070 were based on the fact that I'll be getting a 1440p GSYSNC monitor closer to xmas & BFV will be my game of choice so it'd be nice to be able to dabble with the RTX features without blowing the bank (even if we have no idea how the performance will be just yet) & I've an Oculus rift so DHL or whatever that supersampling is will be there too. :pac:

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Regarding a car with a coffee maker, if I could get that I would buy it. However if its was also faster than the old model, more efficient and with a chance that it can make icecream in the future I would be quids in. Hell I might even pay a little more. People buy track cars all the time, that are great on the road. Just because they never bring it on the track does not negate all the other good things, and if and when the person decides its track time they can do that too.

That made me smile. Well, good for you - we've very different concerns and views on tech but that's not a hanging offense.

I've some comments about the track car stuff, but the depth of that is for when I've a bit more time. Track cars are stripped down and souped up with very focused design - RTX is almost exactly the opposite of that. It's a big ass chip with low transistor density and as many bells and whistles as they could jam onto it.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

I didnt say that you did....straw man much?..I mearly suggested that people are too smart to fall for the obvious echo chamber stuff that has people clambering to clear out the last gen tailings from Nvidia stockroom.

I'm not straw manning you, so lets not split hairs on it. You said "Cause your not thick enough to buy a last gen card for the same money." - I'm telling you how that read to me and asking you not to come out with that stuff as it makes it less enjoyable to read a thread I'm interested in.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

I am having great fun, are you not?

Mostly I'm enjoying myself or I wouldn't be here but I didn't enjoy reading that Thicko comment. Don't harsh my buzz man.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Unfortunatly nobody want to take about RTX here, on the RTX thread, they only want to reccomend good old pascal.

I'll put some detail on this later, but that is kind of a comment on RTX in itself. I don't want to harsh your own buzz (and in terms of power, the RTX 2080 Ti is a big powerful chip), but my opinion on the RTX line isn't great.

RTX is a halo tech brand released, I suspect, primarily as marketing because Nvidia didn't have much to show on the conventional side of GPU dev (see the quote from their CEO last year).

Thinking about it as an engineer rather than from a consumer frame, it's an ugly wasteful design with a lower transistor density than the chipsets it's replacing *despite* having a half node process shrink which should have given it ~50% more transistor density.

In other words, the yield rate is absolutely rubbish which indicates the technology in RTX was not ready to transition, and there's little to no room for Nvidia to reduce their prices on it - they're already one of the cheaper chips given their die size. Price drops will have to come from Nvidia's partners taking a bath on their cut, or potentially a chip refresh.

I'll I've now put some proper figures on this later[\s] below, but there's a strong reason people aren't hopeful for RTX any longer.

Since I promised some figures to illustrate my point:

Table of die sizes by Nvidia series (and the corresponding Dies per wafer - an important predictor of variable cost).

Series| |Die size (mm2) |Ballpark Dies to wafer (corrected)
600 Series| |470 |120
700 Series| |561 |98
900 Series| |601 |90
10 Series| |601 |90
20 Series| |754 |69

Wafer size is a constant @300MM diameter since the early 2000s, so you can easily duplicate this (I used a simple correction factor calc, but you can see the same trends more roughly with just wafer area/die size). These figures are before die yield rates (so I'd expect to get maybe a third of these dies as sell-able product).

I used the largest dies for each series for illustration - the 20 series are pretty clearly a ridiculous outlier.

The attached graph shows average transistor density by node - again, the 20 series are a ridiculous outlier with their transistor density actually decreasing from the prior series.

The same trends show up if you exclude everything but the first released cards at each node (to give the 20 series the benefit of the doubt as an immature card).

Since transistor density is a fundamentally useful measure of a chip's production quality as well as cost/performance, and the die size is a strong predictor of price, I feel pretty comfortable saying that the 20 Series was pushed out of the nest before it could fly.

Adding to this is that if you took the 2080 Ti die size, and gave it the expected 50% boost in transistor density for the half node step (16mm to 12mm), you'd be looking at a die size almost the same size as the 1080 Ti (471mm for the 1080 Ti vs 503mm for the 'correct' 2080 Ti).

So, yeah...

BloodBath

Some people just won't let go of the negativity with these cards.

You can get 2070's for €520. that's euro, not pound, and they knock the crap out of 1080's even without the extra hardware. Show me a 1080ti for that price. 1080ti's are still €700-800+

If you're going to criticise the cards pricing at least get your numbers right.

I understand 10 series owners are disappointed in the lacklustre upgrade options but for someone who skipped that gen like me the 2070 is a very appealing card. Over 2x the performance and memory of a 970 + some new features/cores to play with.

That's how I upgrade. If it's not at least double the performance of my last I'm not interested. Just skip a gen. Would it be even nicer €120 cheaper without the RT and Tensor cores. Probably, but at the same time I look forward to playing with them. There's lot's of software utilising them for hardware acceleration of processes now especially in game dev programs.

It's about €100 more for the same card compared to the previous gen but the die size is also a lot bigger. You're paying the extra for RT and Tensor cores whether you want them or not.

Blazer

It reminds me of the 8800GTX launch...the first dx10 card and it was going to be amazing.
Except it wasn't. It had awful fps in dx10 games.
But in DX9...it was the king of them all and ripped other cards to shreds.
People look fondly back on this card thinking it was fantastic...and it bloody was...but not for what it was designed for which was dx10 games. It sucked in them.
You can dress up the 20 series anyway you like..but its the first card for ray tracing and its really **** performance.
You're asking people to do down from 4k gaming to 1080p and get barely 60fps. No serious fps gamer will do that..they'll all disable that feature once they tire of it.
The next 30 series will be a lot better.

Revoker88

No one is comparing the 2070 to the 1080 ti though.

The 2080 is the card being compared to the 1080 ti.

People have said that if you in the market for 1080 performance you should grab the 2070.

People have also said a 1080 ti looks better value that the 2080,which i agree with.

The negativity is around the price point not the cards themselves.

BloodBath wrote: »

You can get 2070's for €520. that's euro, not pound, and they knock the crap out of 1080's even without the extra hardware.

There's two versions of the chipset being sold as the 2070. I'm skeptical about how well the lower binned version performs, but if you can find a review of that particular card model outperforming the 1080, then there's a strong case for it but it's a bit dodgy at the moment until we know which binned chips are in which card.

BloodBath wrote: »

Show me a 1080ti for that price. 1080ti's are still €700-800+

Mine cost me ~€630 new, Terror linked one @€;670 new a few posts back and I know there's ones available second hand for €550 or under. Given the choice between a second hand 1080 Ti and a new non-A-bin 2070 at close to the same price, I reckon I'd take the 1080 Ti.

BloodBath wrote: »

It's about €100 more for the same card compared to the previous gen but the die size is also a lot bigger. You're paying the extra for RT and Tensor cores whether you want them or not.

I think that's the issue though - it really feels like a design that was pushed out the door way too early before they got their design refined (a "do something" halo release in other words). If they'd been able to keep the same die size (and price points) of the 10 series, you wouldn't be hearing a peep about ray tracing being a wasteful tacked on add-on.

So, my gut on it is next year we'll see a full revision of the line up. Probably around the time AMD do something in the GPU space again.

TerrorFirmer

Where do people have facts and figures wrong?

What was suggested by a user was the literal purchase of a £599 RTX2070, and it pointed out that you can get a new 1080Ti for that price, and it’s significantly faster.

At no point did anyone suggest or recommend buying a GTX1080 over an RTX2070.....or that the 1080Ti and the RTX2070 are the same price?

It was literally one example where the cards happened to be the same price so the suggestion was made that you’d be better off buying a 1080Ti, if you’re going to be spending £600 on a 2070.

BloodBath wrote:

I understand 10 series owners are disappointed in the lacklustre upgrade options but for someone who skipped that gen like me the 2070 is a very appealing card. Over 2x the performance and memory of a
970 + some new features/cores to play with.

It’s not so much about the actual performance of the card, just people are still annoyed at pricing that exists solely because of a monopoly.

If healthy competition existed outside the GTX1060/RX580 class, the simple fact is that the RTX2070 and 2080 would be a considerably cheaper card, no matter what new features or tech it involved.

Now that the mining craze is a distant memory, cards in the lower class are back to normal for the most part....we now have RX570’s at £170 and RX580’s at £200, etc. The next class up is artificially kept high by lack of real competition in the space.

It is what it is, and if the card is value for money for the individual, that’s fine, but I hardly think it’s fair to say it’s ‘people refusing to let go of the negativity’, as if there were no logical or rational
reasoning behind the opinion on pricing for RTX cards.

Dcully

LOL Bloodbath a bit editing gone in there from ie the first line of your post :P

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Blazer wrote: »

It reminds me of the 8800GTX launch...the first dx10 card and it was going to be amazing.
Except it wasn't. It had awful fps in dx10 games.
But in DX9...it was the king of them all and ripped other cards to shreds.

Totally agree...I still have a old 8800gtx and it couldn't play crysis at all, Its now hailed as a landmark GPU. As for RTX dropping down 4k gamers to 1080p there are two issues with that statement. First very few game at 4k mostly because the 4k desktop experiance sucks and its not worth it. And secondly thats what DLSS is for, to upscale to 4k your ray traced frame without using the cuda cores or the rtx cores, they are complementary technologies. The initial reviews are suggesting that DLSS does a very good job of upscaling 1080p or 1440p to 4k and its hard to tell the difference from native 4k.

I cannot find a 630 euro 1080ti anywhere online that sounds like a one off bargain, but again I would argue if you spending that much you would be better off not getting last gen. The double performance or skip a gen is a good way to upgrade, and if you have any interest in dlss or rtx then RTX will offer around 6 times the performance at these tasks as the equivalent pascal.

I get that people dont share my view on all this NOS pascal stuff. I just could not recommend an old card to anyone looking for a new card. Price for price rtx offers more performance and features. Now there is going to be special offers that discount whats not desirable and whats desirable will remain above MSPR....but on average, IMHO if you desire high end and want a new card RTX is the way to go.

Nvidia stock was at a YTD high at the start of October thanks to RTX and the "miraculous" shifting of all the excess pascal dies. Stock is down now thanks to fecking AMD's piss poor results and the market is spooked about the sector in general. Time to buy chaps, Nvidia's hugely profitable deep learning for automotive is worth the stock price alone.

Shlippery

Cool, i'll keep intervening with my little comments as an outsider - I've dropped the Strix cos of it's high expense.

Someone talk me out of this now ; https://www.scan.co.uk/products/msi-geforce-rtx-2070-armor-8gb-gddr6-vr-ready-graphics-card-2304-core-1410mhz-gpu-1620mhz-boost

that'll be about €540 delivered, and i'll be coming from an RX 480 4GB, so I think i'm safe enough once I offload my old card. (a justifiable leap in performance

)

Eh, surely I won't be tarred and feathered for that one.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

MSI is a good brand, cooling solution looks robust. Has a backplate and most importantly has RG..flipping B. I see nothing wrong at all. A big improvement over a rx 480 no doubt.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

MSI is a good brand, cooling solution looks robust. Has a backplate and most importantly has RG..flipping B. I see nothing wrong at all. A big improvement over a rx 480 no doubt.

I think that specific model was one of the one's taken apart and tested out in that video I linked. Might be of interest.

tuxy

The cheap MSI and EVGA are probably the best options if you want a 2070. You won't get the better binned core but that's not worth the extra €100 anyway.

Cuddlesworth

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Totally agree...I still have a old 8800gtx and it couldn't play crysis at all, Its now hailed as a landmark GPU. As for RTX dropping down 4k gamers to 1080p there are two issues with that statement. First very few game at 4k mostly because the 4k desktop experiance sucks and its not worth it. And secondly thats what DLSS is for, to upscale to 4k your ray traced frame without using the cuda cores or the rtx cores, they are complementary technologies. The initial reviews are suggesting that DLSS does a very good job of upscaling 1080p or 1440p to 4k and its hard to tell the difference from native 4k.

You don't buy cards at those prices while running a 60hz 1080p screen. And if you do, ray tracing and DLSS are not things you are even aware of.

I agree with every reviewer I have seen up to now because of past "new tech" cards. Until we see actual independent benchmarks of this hardware in action, across a variety of titles, you judge the cards on what you do know, not what they might be.

And the 2070 right now seems like a decent buy for Christmas around the 500 quid bracket.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Nvidia stock was at a YTD high at the start of October thanks to RTX and the "miraculous" shifting of all the excess pascal dies. Stock is down now thanks to fecking AMD's piss poor results and the market is spooked about the sector in general. Time to buy chaps, Nvidia's hugely profitable deep learning for automotive is worth the stock price alone.

Taking a rough guess at the future.

Nvidia are currently in a die size war with themselves. This is giving them advantages and disadvantages. It seems unlikely AMD are going to bother getting into the size war with Nvidia in the near future but the next few years should be interesting because they are free to work with TSMC now. So they will be on the same process node as Nvidia going forward. Architecture is going to have a huge impact, in terms of performance per watt and price/profit margin. Being able to make a smaller cheaper chip that competes against your competitors larger die, means better profits for one company.

Meaning the main problem with RTX type features is Nvidia can't ever sell them at the mid range, they make the die size too large and can't compete on price. And that pisses off consumers, limits the numbers that can actually use the features and places far less incentive for game developers to bother(if only a small percentage of gamers have RTX cards, why bother?). Right now, a disproportionate amount of people have high end cards because of the mining craze driving prices so high that the high end seemed reasonable. I think its likely the market will return to normal over the next 2-3 years, with the vast majority of cards bought being low to mid range cards, which represent the best value for money.

Car automation is going to be heading into mass produced low power, low heat devices(not a stack of Titanesqe cards in the boot). And the industry is wary of being locked into proprietary code like Cuda. If they can jump ship, they will consider it. It seems unlikey that only Nvidia will compete in that field.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You don't buy cards at those prices while running a 60hz 1080p screen. And if you do, ray tracing and DLSS are not things you are even aware of.

Think you missed my point there, DLSS is for playing at 4k with RTX on. It internally renders at 1080p and upscales. According to the reviews the upscaling is very convincing without any performance hit. I posted the time per frame figures previously and rtx.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Car automation is going to be heading into mass produced low power, low heat devices(not a stack of Titanesqe cards in the boot). And the industry is wary of being locked into proprietary code like Cuda. If they can jump ship, they will consider it. It seems unlikey that only Nvidia will compete in that field.

Think you missed the point here too, deep learning is done centrally on Nvidias supercomputers, the cars themselves have small low power card with Turing like cores that decode the deep learning data. You dont put a actual graphics card in a car but many of the technologies are similar Its the technology of image processing and pattern recognition. Nvidia are signed with Mercedes and Audi so they are the big players in the market at the moment. Its not a area that AMD have the funds to enter, they are leveraged beyond reasonable limits at the moment. The R&D needed is not something a competitor can simply jump on and compete. Google are big players in the deep learning area but they do not produce their own chips yet.

The obsession with die size is interesting...do we really care in gaming chips so long as its works, its fast and its available. RTX is a big die but TDP is not really increased. Nobody is going on about threadrippers die size that thing is enormous. Every reviewer has become a electrical engineer and suddenly cares about die size, and process size. Seems people cant make up their minds what they care about.

RTX is sold at the mid range....the 2070. A good mid-range machine at the moment would be a ryzen CPU, mobo, 16gb ram, 500w PSU, case, SSD and a 2070 around the 1k mark....no bad power for the price.PC gaming has always had these price points...the 600 euro entry machine, the 400 euro ultra budget, the 1000 euro midrange and the 2k+ high and ultra high end. They have not really changed albeit the proportion of money on the individual components shifts around.

Subcomandante Marcos

The 20 series is a generation of cards that doesn't really need to exist and from what we've seen so far doesn't do the thing it's suposed to do all that well anyway. It's purely been rushed out to occupy mindshare amongst people with more money than sense and to give Nvedia bragging rights for another year. It comes after one of the longest running generations of modern GPU's with negligable performance increases on that generation and will, most likely, be one of the shortest running generations of mordern GPU's from Nvedia. They are cards that noboy needed, that do something that won't be implemented in the vast majority of tripple A games for another year, and don't do it very well at that.

If you're just an Nvedia lemming and willing to jump off whatever cliff they tell you to, go for it, waste your money. If not just hold on to your 10 series and skip this generation. If you're buying new just wait for the overstocked 10 series cards to drop in price in the near term as Nvedia are sitting on so much stock they'll be forced to stop doing stupid crap like underclocking 1080 cores and rebranding them as 1060's and just slash prices soon enough.

Cuddlesworth

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Think you missed my point there, DLSS is for playing at 4k with RTX on. It internally renders at 1080p and upscales. According to the reviews the upscaling is very convincing without any performance hit. I posted the time per frame figures previously and rtx.

Performance figures and analysis from independent reviewers in released games that are not tech demos?

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

Think you missed the point here too, deep learning is done centrally on Nvidias supercomputers, the cars themselves have small low power card with Turing like cores that decode the deep learning data. You dont put a actual graphics card in a car but many of the technologies are similar Its the technology of image processing and pattern recognition. Nvidia are signed with Mercedes and Audi so they are the big players in the market at the moment. Its not a area that AMD have the funds to enter, they are leveraged beyond reasonable limits at the moment. The R&D needed is not something a competitor can simply jump on and compete. Google are big players in the deep learning area but they do not produce their own chips yet.

I'll take your word for it, what I had seen is cars driving around with a rack of GPU's in the boot.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

The obsession with die size is interesting...do we really care in gaming chips so long as its works, its fast and its available. RTX is a big die but TDP is not really increased. Nobody is going on about threadrippers die size that thing is enormous. Every reviewer has become a electrical engineer and suddenly cares about die size, and process size. Seems people cant make up their minds what they care about.

Threadripper is a 32 core x86 cpu and your using Whataboutism.

We are approaching limits in terms of process node shrinks, so die size is going to be important. Larger dies costs more, pull more power and the cost doesn't scale linearly.

Genevieve Disgusting Self-improvement wrote: »

RTX is sold at the mid range....the 2070. A good mid-range machine at the moment would be a ryzen CPU, mobo, 16gb ram, 500w PSU, case, SSD and a 2070 around the 1k mark....no bad power for the price.PC gaming has always had these price points...the 600 euro entry machine, the 400 euro ultra budget, the 1000 euro midrange and the 2k+ high and ultra high end. They have not really changed albeit the proportion of money on the individual components shifts around.

Just because mining and Nvidia have made 500 Euros pricing mid range does not mean it is or will continue to be. 2019 will see 7nm Polaris and a return of mid spec 250-350 quid cards on small dies.

The only reason you can still keep those PC price ranges, is because AMD have driven down the prices of CPU's while the price of GPU's have shot up. 2 years ago, a mid range 6600k(4/4) was around 300 quid. A processor that really struggles in modern game engines and workloads today.

BloodBath

Dude there are no 1080ti's for that price. You might have got 1 at some point in a sale or something but there's none now. You can get decent 2070's for €520. The cheapest 1080ti is €700-750. You could get a second hand 1 for around the price of a 2070 for sure though and no doubt it's a much better card.

The 2070 is definitely overpriced like the rest of the line up but some of the €520 models are not bad. Just a cheap cooler and not great overclocking. Steve covered 1 of them here. I haven't seen 1080's come down in price much as a result. At the moment it's still priced around the same as the 2070. Kinda strange from Nvidia. I'd expect the last stock of these to be flogged off this black friday as the card makes no sense at all now. The 1070ti is in a similar situation but at least it's cheaper.

LOL Bloodbath a bit editing gone in there from ie the first line of your post

Yes I get enough warnings on this site. Shouldn't post until I get a coffee into me in the morning

TerrorFirmer

I'm still confused though. Still no 1080Ti's at what price? OCUK have them for £599 with plenty stock, and it's an OK model....they've had them at that price a few times.

Of course the 2070 now makes sense at that price point, but no-one was disputing that at all....the conversation was more on the crap state of mid-range pricing as a result of the current market situation.

2 years ago, a mid range 6600k(4/4) was around 300 quid. A processor that really struggles in modern game engines and workloads today.

It's really mad the pace at which change came into the CPU market in such a short period of time, after a huge, lengthy span of little change. It was late 2016 and around the time of BF1 that the i5 very abruptly started to show massive chinks in previously pretty impenetrable armor.

It's also very interesting to see how games finally shifting towards true multi-core utilisation has somewhat breathed fresh life into ancient processors from a gaming perspective - I've a first gen i7 here from 2009 and it's incredible how relatively well it handles multi-core stuff considering its age. I mostly use it for Overwatch and its good at about an avg 120fps at stock speeds (i7-920).

A CPU that costs €10 2nd hand and almost a decade old. If we back-dated that to when it was released, it would be the equivalent of attempting to use a Pentium II to play Crysis in 2008.

Also runs Fallout 4 at about 50-60fps, which is impressive when you compare it to the 20-30fps limit of the consoles.

Ryzen is a god send for the consumer. I got my 1700X for £150 new on Amazon, obviously it's no i5-8600K/i7-8700 (in games) but I'll take it, and keep it, at that price versus the alternative.

BArra

Scan and OCUK have had 1080ti's recently for 579.99GBP, and 599.99GBP

MSI, Gigabyte, Aorus models

I got a 1080ti Aorus from scan for 599 on the 25th of Sept, today's xe.com rate makes that 674euro.

So indeed a bit more than 2070s, but for me it was the decision I was happy with

Do-more

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/nvidia-rtx-2080-ti-graphics-cards-dying/

The perils of being an early adopter.

Do-more wrote: »

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/nvidia-rtx-2080-ti-graphics-cards-dying/

The perils of being an early adopter.

It'd fit the unusual die size/transistor density, but I really hope it's wrong (or at least something more limited like a bad batch of memory).

TitianGerm

There's a Palit 2080 available on Laptops Direct for £699. Think that's the cheapest I've seen one so far.