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Child Item

Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

jjmcclure

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/homeless-mumofseven-margaret-cash-appears-in-court-over-stealing-300-worth-of-clothes-from-penneys-37434491.html

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tuxy

Calhoun wrote: »

Well what do you do with them? If the law has no meaning then why even bother?

I wish I had an answer for that but the most intelligent people in the most advanced countries have yet to find a solution to criminals that have this pattern of behavior.
I'm not saying to give up as that would send a terrible message, it's just that I personally have no idea where we should begin to make changes.

end of the road

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I do agree with you both sides need to work.
One thing tough in my experience. In school for example the traveller kids were always threaded the same. They were given resource hours, SNA 's, etc everything was done for them as would be a settled person. There was none of this exclusion or being sent to corner as John Connors makes out but all the lads just left school early for some reason and people were friendly with them.
Primary school was fine but secondary they just stopped going and didn't do their junior cert.
There were given exception from languages if required as were the settled kids and you could do ordinary or foundation level subject and tip along for the junior cert and then you'd go into LCA if you found the more traditional route was hard. They are plenty of lads who skipped school and hated it but they didn't drop out.
I don't really know what else the government of teachers could have done.

oh i'm in agreement. absolutely. many of us will know traveler children who left during secondary school. i don't know what the answer is or have the answer as to how that issue should be dealt with though, all i know is it should be and must be dealt with.

wexie

tuxy wrote: »

I wish I had an answer for that but the most intelligent people in the most advanced countries have yet to find a solution to criminals that have this pattern of behavior.
I'm not saying to give up as that would send a terrible message, it's just that I personally have no idea where we should begin to make changes.

Snake knows

On a more serious note I'd have to say I don't know either and rather than trying to spend effort and resources on figuring that out I think we should focus those on making sure that the current generation of incurable criminals doesn't get to raise another generation of them.

Course I don't really know how to do that either

just seems that impressing societal norms and values seems easier to do on younguns than hardened criminals. You know, simple stuff like thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not drive ponies to death and leave them by the side of the road, thou shalt not shite in thy neighbours school bag.

wexie

end of the road wrote: »

i don't know what the answer is or have the answer as to how that issue should be dealt with though, all i know is it should be and must be dealt with.

Well I'm glad we can agree on that at least.

I do truly think the answer to this is education somehow.

yosser hughes

end of the road wrote: »

oh i'm in agreement. absolutely. many of us will know traveler children who left during secondary school. i don't know what the answer is or have the answer as to how that issue should be dealt with though, all i know is it should be and must be dealt with.

Infantilising segments of society with special treatment and benefits keeps those same people where they are. It disincentives them and creates a culture of dependency. The same goes for long term social welfare dependants.
Big government getting involved and trying to 'help' is counter productive in the end.

Treat them the same as everyone else. Go after them if they don't pay tax or don't actively seek work.. Punish criminality.

There is a blind eye mentality going on in this country much like the Rotherham case in England and there is a similar case here that will be made public very soon.

Effects

wexie wrote: »

he did.....

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108428787&postcount=833

I literally quoted his post. I just removed the image so people didn't have to see it repeated. And then you just link to the post I've already quoted. How stupid are you?

He didn't post them initially, just his anecdote. Which is what I was referring to.

tretorn

There is no incentive to work while you can have an income of 50,000 euros transferred into your bank account via child benefit and a myriad selection of social welfare payments.

The travellers can get up out of bed at midday and steal a weeks work of valuables in a few hours. Why would they do a low paid job for ten euros an hour which will involve having to put in a full days work. It doesnt make sense to them, they think the rest of us are insane.

They cant see any purpose to education because at the end of it is a working life and financially the average traveller would be no better off working than he is staying on the dole for life.

Travellers dont want to live as functioning members of society, they want to live outside it but yet qualify for every benefit other citizens are entitled to. Even the ones that cant read or write seem to be able to qualify for every assistance going, I presume that is what the Pavee Point workers do, make sure the travellers get every assistance going but never try and impress on travellers that other people have genuine grievances about their behaviour.

wexie

Effects wrote: »

I literally quoted his post. I just removed the image so people didn't have to see it repeated. And then you just link to the post I've already quoted. How stupid are you?

He didn't post them initially, just his anecdote. Which is what I was referring to.

We're all terribly curious to know if you've anything else to say, but I guess you missed all those posts....

Effects

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

He did - so, your thoughts now you've seen it ?

Yeah actually. Why is he blanking out the link to the facebook page/user selling the stolen clothes. Why is he protecting the thief?

Effects

wexie wrote: »

We're all terribly curious to know if you've anything else to say, but I guess you missed all those posts....

See post above.

wexie

Effects wrote: »

See post above.

So nothing of any kind of substance then?

And if you really want to know why he's blanked out the name I doubt it's you that needs to be questioning my intellect

Will I Am Not

Effects wrote: »

I literally quoted his post. I just removed the image so people didn't have to see it repeated. And then you just link to the post I've already quoted. How stupid are you?

He didn't post them initially, just his anecdote. Which is what I was referring to.

You’re unnecessarily angry...
Do you accompany your anecdotal stories with pictorial evidence? They’re not really anecdotes then though.

Will I Am Not

Effects wrote: »

Yeah actually. Why is he blanking out the link to the facebook page/user selling the stolen clothes. Why is he protecting the thief?

So some do gooder can’t report it and have it taken down for privacy infringement or some other bullsh*t.

freshpopcorn

end of the road wrote: »

oh i'm in agreement. absolutely. many of us will know traveler children who left during secondary school. i don't know what the answer is or have the answer as to how that issue should be dealt with though, all i know is it should be and must be dealt with.

I do think there is room for improvement with the amount of subjects being offered in secondary school especially in the senior end. Maybe more trade or practical stuff could be offered that is currently being offered in college of further education.
Now I do think it's important that the subjects are realistic and you have some hope of getting work from them. There's no point of having over wishy washy thing.

Effects

wexie wrote: »

So nothing of any kind of substance then?

And if you really want to know why he's blanked out the name I doubt it's you that needs to be questioning my intellect

Ok, without questioning your intellect, why is he protecting the identity of the thief?

Effects

Will I Am Not wrote: »

You’re unnecessarily angry...
Do you accompany your anecdotal stories with pictorial evidence? They’re not really anecdotes then though.

I'm not angry at all, where are you getting that idea from?
I just pointed out that posters stupidity in not recognising what they were quoting.
And what's the point in pointing out what an anecdote is? I asked for more evidence than an anecdote and I got half what I was expecting.

Paddy Cow

Effects wrote: »

Yeah actually. Why is he blanking out the link to the facebook page/user selling the stolen clothes. Why is he protecting the thief?

Effects wrote: »

Ok, without questioning your intellect, why is he protecting the identity of the thief?

Doxxing on boards will earn you a site wide perma ban.

Effects

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Doxxing on boards will earn you a site wide perma ban.

Thanks for the information. I don't keep up to date with a lot of the rules here.

Calhoun

tuxy wrote: »

I wish I had an answer for that but the most intelligent people in the most advanced countries have yet to find a solution to criminals that have this pattern of behavior.
I'm not saying to give up as that would send a terrible message, it's just that I personally have no idea where we should begin to make changes.

Sure we may as well just give up on this society ****, no more gaurds because obviously if we aren't going to jail people why bother even paying someone to enforce the law?

[Deleted User]

tuxy wrote: »

But we can't afford to jail them as the cost of prison far exceeds the cost of social welfare and damage by fraud/theft combined.
It may be a worthwhile investment if it changed their outlook but if anything they come out of prison much worse and more of a threat to society. Why would the country spend money on this?

Don’t be daft. Can’t afford to jail them my bollocks. The country’s just too fcuking soft on these little pricks and/or too afraid of them. If we can afford to give her 50 grand a year we can afford to put her in prison. I can tell you fairly lively if I stole 300 pound worth of clothes from penny’s I’d be in prison right now, but them and their ethnic group or clowns get away with it. It’s total bollox. They want equality? Like **** they do.

CrankyHaus

end of the road wrote: »

oh i'm in agreement. absolutely. many of us will know traveler children who left during secondary school. i don't know what the answer is or have the answer as to how that issue should be dealt with though, all i know is it should be and must be dealt with.

Actually it's not that complex: make certain welfare payments contingent on meeting reasonable expectations (looking for work for JSA, children attending school for child benefit, working poor at top of housing list etc) and impose proportionate punishments for criminality, particularly repeat offenders.

Within a generation you'd disincentize a large amount of the traveling community (and many others) from the lifestyle that keeps them less educated, less healthy, more suicidal, more incarcerated, more violent and less employed than the settled community.

Of course this would require hard work from the state and cost political capital (in sustained attack from the quango sector) for any government. So it's easier to keep things going as a taxpayer funded free for all that fails both communities. Easier that is until voters demand better.

[Deleted User]

The people given the highest priority on social housing are the disabled and homeless. That’s how it should remain imo

tuxy

RaichuMGS wrote: »

Don’t be daft. Can’t afford to jail them my bollocks. The country’s just too fcuking soft on these little pricks and/or too afraid of them. If we can afford to give her 50 grand a year we can afford to put her in prison.

€50k to imprison someone for a year? Are you for real? That figure is no where near it.
Average cost is €97,700 btw. Then add the cost of finding somewhere for her 7 children for the year and we are at an outrageous sum.

[Deleted User]

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Actually it's not that complex: make certain welfare payments contingent on meeting reasonable expectations (looking for work for JSA, children attending school for child benefit, working poor at top of housing list etc) and impose proportionate punishments for criminality, particularly repeat offenders.

Within a generation you'd disincentize a large amount of the traveling community (and many others) from the lifestyle that keeps them less educated, less healthy, more suicidal, more incarcerated, more violent and less employed than the settled community.

Of course this would require hard work from the state and cost political capital (in sustained attack from the quango sector) for any government. So it's easier to keep things going as a taxpayer funded free for all that fails both communities. Easier that is until voters demand better.

I would happily have free places in after school clubs too so the kids could get their homework done. Within a generation it would be sorted and these kids might also help their parents with illiteracy.

feartuath

end of the road wrote: »

corks finest wrote: »

What he said was what the vast vast majority of Irish people think

according to?

corks finest wrote: »

There speaks one who has never dealt with travellers,in pubs,discos,shops etc

i have had my own issues with the odd traveler. i also have travelers who are very good friends of mine. there are good and bad travelers. the bad ones should be dealt with and the good ones should be able to go about their business.

Good ones go about their business.
what business is that !!!!

Robbing the people who are out at work or scamming the elderly and the welfare system.

Calhoun

tuxy wrote: »

€50k to imprison someone for a year? Are you for real? That figure is no where near it.
Average cost is €97,700 btw. Then add the cost of finding somewhere for her 7 children for the year and we are at an outrageous sum.

There has to be crime and punishment, if we don't have a mechanism to repay society we are in some trouble.

Why should any individual play by the rules if they know there is zero consequences for doing what you like?

I would start by turning the source of money off for one.

[Deleted User]

tuxy wrote: »

€50k to imprison someone for a year? Are you for real? That figure is no where near it.
Average cost is €97,700 btw. Then add the cost of finding somewhere for her 7 children for the year and we are at an outrageous sum.

Did you read what I said? She gets 50k a year benefits (of which she would not be entitled to in prison). And irrespective of whether or not it costs an extra 50 grand to house her in prison she (and any other criminal) should be put in prison. You realise also the council is paying for her to stay in hotels/B&B’s every night? I’d average that’s about €100 p/n give or take, over a year that’s about 37k. So to give her benefits and pay for hotels and B&B’s we’re at about 80k. Not too far off what it would cost to imprison her but she gets to go rob penny’s and get off Scot free. As for her children they should be removed from her custody yesterday.

tuxy

Calhoun wrote: »

There has to be crime and punishment, if we don't have a mechanism to repay society we are in some trouble.

Without doubt but if you go to any district court and see what goes on I'm not sure we have yet approach anything close to an answer.

People out of prison for the day up on further charges. Laughing and joking with with their friends and family during proceedings then smirking after the judge adds a few extra months to the sentence. Nice day out for them.....

wexie

RaichuMGS wrote: »

Did you read what I said? She gets 50k a year benefits (of which she would not be entitled to in prison). And irrespective of whether or not it costs an extra 50 grand to house her in prison she (and any other criminal) should be put in prison. You realise also the council is paying for her to stay in hotels/B&B’s every night? I’d average that’s about €100 p/n give or take, over a year that’s about 37k. So to give her benefits and pay for hotels and B&B’s we’re at about 80k. Not too far off what it would cost to imprison her but she gets to go rob penny’s and get off Scot free. As for her children they should be removed from her custody yesterday.

So stick her in the klink for a few years (at higher or fairly similar costs) then let her out and send her back to her 50k a year?

How's that going to solve anything?

Btw don't think that I'm saying she and people like her don't need to be addressed, I just don't think that sticking them in prison for a few years and sending her on her way is going to achieve anything.

If anything you then all of a sudden have 7 kids who now have a disturbed attachment to one (or more likely both) parents, further complicating their issues (and believe me when I say this kids will already have issues) a mother with even more of a grudge against the system (and she's not exactly well adjusted to start with) and you've still achieved nothing....

Do you think a few years in jail will teach her not to go right back to her lifestyle?

[Deleted User]

wexie wrote: »

So stick her in the klink for a few years (at higher or fairly similar costs) then let her out and send her back to her 50k a year?

How's that going to solve anything?

Btw don't think that I'm saying she and people like her don't need to be addressed, I just don't think that sticking them in prison for a few years and sending her on her way is going to achieve anything.

If anything you then all of a sudden have 7 kids who now have a disturbed attachment to one (or more likely both) parents, further complicating their issues (and believe me when I say this kids will already have issues) a mother with even more of a grudge against the system (and she's not exactly well adjusted to start with) and you've still achieved nothing....

Do you think a few years in jail will teach her not to go right back to her lifestyle?

I don’t know because she hasn’t been put in prison. But I can tell you from spending some time in a cell for mental illness reasons if someone locked me in there for years I wouldn’t be begging to go back.

Besides that whether or not she goes back to being a criminal or not does not mean she just be left to do as she wants. How does that even make any sense to you? We’re not talking about whether to ground a rebellious teenager here, incarceration of a criminal should not be debated. It should be done. This kind of attitude is why there’s little ****s with hundreds of convictions and nary a day spent in a prison.