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Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

TheFitz13

Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

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trellheim

DAA has it's faults but it provides infrastructure within it's realm to a high standard that gives a nice experience and good impression of the country.

I must have missed this. This is by far the biggest hyperbole on this board for years. DAA is a complete joke that care more for their airlines than their passengers. IT IS A KIP. As someone who has to travel through once or twice a week ( not by choice) its awful and does not show Ireland well at all to inbounds.

Any metaphor you care to use - a car park that happens to have an airport, a pension plan with a runway , DAA has deservedly got them all.

A privately owned terminal would break up this monopoly and allow for some competition at least.

orionm_73

80m seems too short to connect the South Gates to the main terminal building. Reading the planning application it says “leading from the bus drop off point to the transfer facility”.
It seems to me that the buses will still run and they are just building a covered walkway along the south east side of pier 4 (400 Gates)

Locker10a

Stephen Strange wrote: »

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Is this connecting the bus gates to the main terminal via a walkway? (Those planning notices are notoriously tricky to read) Our flight from LGW last night landed in them despite almost all regular T2 gates being empty and parked at the absolute furthest gate too! Thats life, but I don't know of anywhere else where they walk you into the terminal and then make you do a U-turn to wait for the buses, which of course we had to wait for and there was much huffing and puffing from the queue.

Now, we were the only flight, and it was all really quite efficient, but I can't conceive why they don't have buses to meet every flight like they do at other airports. I can only imagine the fun if 4 or 5 flights dropped people off simultaneously. Did Dublin airport just want to pay for the minimum amount of buses? You could get away with less doing it they way they are doing it rather than the 'proper' way?

Yep, it's permission for an 80m covered walkway from thd gates to main terminal building.

So essentially making it a proper actual pier !? Makes sense, I hope it’s a decent walkway with travelators etc

Stephen Strange

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Is this connecting the bus gates to the main terminal via a walkway? (Those planning notices are notoriously tricky to read) Our flight from LGW last night landed in them despite almost all regular T2 gates being empty and parked at the absolute furthest gate too! Thats life, but I don't know of anywhere else where they walk you into the terminal and then make you do a U-turn to wait for the buses, which of course we had to wait for and there was much huffing and puffing from the queue.

Now, we were the only flight, and it was all really quite efficient, but I can't conceive why they don't have buses to meet every flight like they do at other airports. I can only imagine the fun if 4 or 5 flights dropped people off simultaneously. Did Dublin airport just want to pay for the minimum amount of buses? You could get away with less doing it they way they are doing it rather than the 'proper' way?

Yep, it's permission for an 80m covered walkway from thd gates to main terminal building.

Chris_5339762

Is this connecting the bus gates to the main terminal via a walkway? (Those planning notices are notoriously tricky to read) Our flight from LGW last night landed in them despite almost all regular T2 gates being empty and parked at the absolute furthest gate too! Thats life, but I don't know of anywhere else where they walk you into the terminal and then make you do a U-turn to wait for the buses, which of course we had to wait for and there was much huffing and puffing from the queue.

Now, we were the only flight, and it was all really quite efficient, but I can't conceive why they don't have buses to meet every flight like they do at other airports. I can only imagine the fun if 4 or 5 flights dropped people off simultaneously. Did Dublin airport just want to pay for the minimum amount of buses? You could get away with less doing it they way they are doing it rather than the 'proper' way?

JCX BXC

Would fully agree. There would simply be no real benefits from privatisation in this case, the DAA are an example of a semi-state body that actually functions properly and arguably (definitely in my book) serves the public much better than a private body ever would/could.

Kermit.de.frog

I would be against a privately owned terminal at Dublin Airport.

DAA has it's faults but it provides infrastructure within it's realm to a high standard that gives a nice experience and good impression of the country.

I'd be worried a private operator would construct a cow shed, lowering standards. The DAA would be forced to compete by being cheaper and lowering it's standards. Thus the passenger experience will be diminished.

I think the DAA should just be instructed to build a world class 3rd terminal and get on with it.

I'm generally in favor of more competition and private enterprise but here a 3rd privately owned terminal can only be detrimental in my view.

Phen2206

The tower is coming along very nicely now with the lower tier outer cladding in place and looking very swish indeed. I also noticed BAILE ATHA CLIATH lettering vertically along one of the black strips on the side of the shaft. Should be very snazzy when complete. (Sorry no pics!)

Nibs05

What are John Paul construction doing, I see they set up a new compound/site last week oposite hanger 6.

s14driftking

roadmaster wrote: »

I seen the other day in the indo that Mulcairs and FCC are preferred bidders for the new runway

Howley civil contracts meant to be a very strong contender to I’ve heard.

roadmaster

I seen the other day in the indo that Mulcairs and FCC are preferred bidders for the new runway

The link below to the article

https://amp.independent.ie/business/irish/roadbridge-and-fcc-close-in-on-dublin-airport-runway-contract-37362437.html

Jack1985

For a temporary solution to traffic waves, it surprises me Dublin ATC doesn't allow for a RWY28 (or even RWY34 during dual operations) hold at B3 short of RWY16/34 taxiing via M2, leaving RWY28 arrivals come in via H2.

In doing that they allow the Foxes clear for RWY28 departures and arrivals taxiing in, better aligning Shamrocks etc from the 300's hold from F3 through to F1 keeping the Links to F1 clear to allow arrivals into the cul-de-sac and 400's.

For better CTOT critical management they could use A, B2 or E2 as a holds and by using B3 as a hold point, they keep access to RWY28 clear for immediate departures.

I've never seen such a disorganized system, a lot of the delays stem from the early first wave. With the midday and evening waves the arrivals are blocked in between departures on the foxes causing headaches for everyone.

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Locker10a wrote:

All the above points are really interesting, and all are basically the type of complaints Iâ€™d heard snippets of previously. Now, my question is, when they procedures in Dublin are so piss poor, and delays are getting worse than ever, why the hell arenâ€™t the airlines hounding the IAA to sort themselves out? They are their clients or â€œcustomersâ€ of you want to think about it like that. Why are the home airlines especially, who run their operations out of DUB, saying to the IAA, look why canâ€™t we improve this situation?

They are and have been for a long time but the IAA couldn't give a flying fock. Pardon the pun!

notharrypotter

trellheim wrote: »

'Land after' is clearance for a second airplane to land before the plane on the runway that has just landed, has exited the runway, as far as I know ?

Land over is expert level ATC.

Locker10a

All the above points are really interesting, and all are basically the type of complaints I’d heard snippets of previously.
Now, my question is, when they procedures in Dublin are so piss poor, and delays are getting worse than ever, why the hell aren’t the airlines hounding the IAA to sort themselves out? They are their clients or “customers” of you want to think about it like that. Why are the home airlines especially, who run their operations out of DUB, saying to the IAA, look why can’t we improve this situation?

Jamie2k9

Flybe at LHR is Little Red slots. LHR will want them gone as soon as possible!

Irish Steve

To comment on some of the previous responses.

I wasn't aware that Flybe were operating Dash 8's into Heathrow, that actually surprises me, as I was under the impression that they were discouraging smaller turbo props until such time as they eventually get their third runway, a bit like Istanbul, Attaturk won't accept aircraft smaller than a 737/A320 any more, they have to go to the alternate airport. That will change when the "new" Istanbul opens later this year.

Land After, the point about the length and suitability of the Dublin runway is noted, both Heathrow and Gatwick are longer, maybe DAA should have learnt something from that, but DAA are not known for being ahead of the game, they seem to be constantly playing catch up for longer than I can remember, and I was flying into Dublin when it still had 05/23, and there was no SSR in use, so it was all procedural levels and separation.

I can't understand why "flight A line up behind the landing XXXXX and wait" can't be used, it seems to be pretty much standard in a lot of other places.

Maybe Dublin could learn something from Istanbul, their arrival system there uses 2 parallel tracks either side of the inbound track,separated by the required distance, so they put arrivals outbound, and descend them accordingly, with appropriate speed reductions to get the separations right, and then turn them on to final approach to get the right separation, and having spent more than a few hours watching it on Flightradar, it works very well, with significant volumes, and very few go arounds. It would be more difficult at the moment with departures on the same runway, but going forward, it would make for massive improvements in separation, which is the critical factor for getting high volume movements.

Time will tell, a lot will depend on how DAA deal with some of the well know issues that have been mentioned in several threads here, but I am not optimistic, given their track record, and ATC can only work with what's on the ground, and if that's bad, for whatever reason, their ability to deliver the service suffers.

[Deleted User]

You hear it at Heathrow when aircraft (heavies) are slow rolling to N6 and A10E which are about 2300m from the threshold or at gatwick when aircraft vacate FR which is 2400m from the threshold. The U.K. rule was amended to 2000m to facilitate this.

E6 is only 1850m from the threshold so wouldn’t even meet the U.K. criteria.

[Deleted User]

“3) a succeeding landing aircraft may cross the runway threshold when a preceding Category 3 aircraft:
i) has landed and has passed a point at least 2 400 m from the threshold of the runway, is in motion and will vacate the runway without backtracking; or
ii) is airborne and has passed a point at least 2 400 m from the threshold of the runway”

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Publications/ICAO-Doc-4444-EN.pdf Page 110 for reference.

Runway 28 is 2637 so you can’t apply the landing bit to Dublin unless aircraft vacate at B7 which they don’t. The difference between standard separation which is runway length and land after departing is 237m, hardly worth crying over is it.

CoisFharraige

You can hear a land after clearance at Gatwick in this video from back in the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-sfIPS2Jqk

The arrival gets so close to the runway (or the controller predicts that they will be very close at an early stage and anticipates it) that they issue the land after clearance as the departure is on the runway.

Phen2206 wrote: »

Indeed at LGW you get these all time. Not so much at LHR as one runway is for departures and one for arrivals, usually.

So at LGW you'll hear something like this:

"Easy 123, behind the landing Airbus A319, via M1 line up runway 26L behind"

These are used in essentially every country in the world with any level of movements on a single runway except for Ireland.

Phen2206 wrote: »

Someone said the red stop bar system at DUB prevents such conditional line up clearances because it automatically comes back on 45 seconds (?) or so after it is turned off, thus I gather its too easy for the stop bar to come back on while someone is lining up and then alarms start going off. I'd have thought from a technological point of view this should be an easy enough issue to fix but I imagine there are all sorts of IAA issues preventing this.

LHR recently started using stop bars at the line up points again but it doesn't interfere with conditional clearances, I think because the controllers have much more control over them unlike DUB.

Dublin's stopbar system is one which is standard and to ICAO regs, so it's a simple push of the button - no difference to LHR's. The stopbar does come on again relatively quickly (60 seconds is ICAO recommendation) and when you get a long aircraft (EK 773 comes to mind) the RIMCAS alert goes off in the tower. You can hear it in the transmissions sometimes ''RUNWAY, RUNWAY, RUNWAY'' and an alarm with it.

LHR also has a timer, so I'm not sure why this would affect Dublin specifically. The stopbar must be manually switched off by all ATCOs in every tower position only once the landing aircraft passes, regardless of airport and systems.

Phen2206

goingnowhere wrote: »

"After the landing xxx, Enter 28 at E1, line up and wait"

Indeed at LGW you get these all time. Not so much at LHR as one runway is for departures and one for arrivals, usually.

So at LGW you'll hear something like this:

"Easy 123, behind the landing Airbus A319, via M1 line up runway 26L behind"

and the pilot on radio would respond "behind the landing Airbus A319, via M1 line up runway 26L behind, Easy 123".

Someone said the red stop bar system at DUB prevents such conditional line up clearances because it automatically comes back on 45 seconds (?) or so after it is turned off, thus I gather its too easy for the stop bar to come back on while someone is lining up and then alarms start going off. I'd have thought from a technological point of view this should be an easy enough issue to fix but I imagine there are all sorts of IAA issues preventing this.

LHR recently started using stop bars at the line up points again but it doesn't interfere with conditional clearances, I think because the controllers have much more control over them unlike DUB.

goingnowhere

Its a landing clearance, if visual with the aircraft in front, land and maintain separation, so only land if the guy ahead has cleared the runway or is so far down the runway that you are assured you can stop before him.
"Land after the company 737"

The conditional line up
"After the landing xxx, Enter 28 at E1, line up and wait"

trellheim

'Land after' is clearance for a second airplane to land before the plane on the runway that has just landed, has exited the runway, as far as I know ?

[Deleted User]

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Land after is where the departing aircraft would be instructed to line up the runway after the landing aircraft on final. Once the aircraft on final lands down on the runway, the departing aircraft would line up immediately and await for take off clearance.

That’s incorrect.

jamo2oo9

Shedite27 wrote: »

What's this to us lay people?

Do they issue stats on the number of go arounds? Is Dublin really that bad? I live close to the airport and while not a planespotter, have never seen a go-around. Are we talking on a day?

Land after is where the departing aircraft would be instructed to line up the runway after the landing aircraft on final. Once the aircraft on final lands down on the runway, the departing aircraft would line up immediately and await for take off clearance.

Shedite27

CoisFharraige wrote: »

The procedures employed in a Dublin may have suited it a decade ago, but not now.

Heathrow and Gatwick issue ‘land after’ clearances to arriving aircraft during daylight hours. The criteria are easily met by Dublin’s operations.

What's this to us lay people?

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Instead what Dublin has is controllers (some extremely notably better than others) literally shouting a takeoff clearance down the frequency, whilst they twiddle their thumbs wondering if the arrival is too close or not. Some will then panic and issue a go around instruction, AND abort the departure - in Gatwick land after clearances make this problem non-existent for controllers. This is the biggest stress faced by TWR controllers in Dublin.

Do they issue stats on the number of go arounds? Is Dublin really that bad? I live close to the airport and while not a planespotter, have never seen a go-around. Are we talking on a day?

CoisFharraige

Locker10a wrote: »

Yeah, I’m sorry to say, I’ve close personal relationships with some people involved in ATC and in particular NATS in the U.K. and the Irish approach to ATC appears to be inefficient and seems to leave a lot of room for improvements that would benefit all parties

The procedures employed in a Dublin may have suited it a decade ago, but not now.

Heathrow and Gatwick issue ‘land after’ clearances to arriving aircraft during daylight hours. The criteria are easily met by Dublin’s operations.

Line up after clearances are still non-existent. This stems from a recommendation made in a report by the AAIU about a Turkish 738 which made a runway incursion. As a result Dublin doesn’t use them.

Instead what Dublin has is controllers (some extremely notably better than others) literally shouting a takeoff clearance down the frequency, whilst they twiddle their thumbs wondering if the arrival is too close or not. Some will then panic and issue a go around instruction, AND abort the departure - in Gatwick land after clearances make this problem non-existent for controllers. This is the biggest stress faced by TWR controllers in Dublin.

Ground on the other hand is just a mess in general when busy due to taxiway layouts. Dublin is unlucky in this sense. However, Dublin and Gatwick both have one runway, with similar sized aircraft, yet Gatwick does it better (in terms of runway movements) - simple as.

It’s no fun for anybody - pilots on the approach reading back landing clearances with the “50” callout in the background, pilots anxiously wondering if they’re next to go at the hold and cleared for an “IMMEDIATE!!!” line up by ATC. Bit of a mess all in all - they have the systems, but the procedures just don’t work, and I have no idea why they don’t change them to make it a little less of a problem for everyone involved.

Let me add to that - time based separation that we see in Heathrow would also help Dublin with the winds we often have, but no sign of that. NATS are so far ahead of the IAA in terms of innovation it’s ridiculous. Instead we get these useless reports from the CAR saying that we are upping movements by +1 per hour with no change

Idbatterim

The amount of times in sitting on a plane in Dublin waiting to take off. airport, one lands, one takes off, one lands, one takes off. The amount of time between each action seems a joke, you can see the spacing between the planes, both visually and time wise and it seems excessive ...

Locker10a

Bsal wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

While I'm no fan of the IAA's ATC management, it's a little unfair to compare Heathrow with Dublin at the moment, in that Heathrow is a dual runway operation, and more significantly, does not have the variety of aircraft sizes that are in use at Dublin, it's been a very long time now since things like ATR's and the like were part of their mix, so they don't get the problems with separation that happen at Dublin. Another huge advantage they have at Heathrow is their "land after" system, which could in theory be applied at Dublin when there's no depature in between.

Yes, Dublin need to up their game some, and DAA also have to share some of the blame for very poor design decisions in relation to the layout of stands and access routes.

I would like to hope that IAA will indeed up their game when the second runway comes into use, it will certainly make operations simpler in terms of the way the slots are allocated, and should make it easier to get the throughput that is needed.

There is another problem to be addressed in relation to the close proximity of the UK air space boundary, if London impose flow control restrictions, that immediately makes problems for Dublin to dispatch at the speed they could acheive.

Flybe have been operating Dash 8's at Heathrow for a while now so they have a good mix there too and doesn't cause any problems.

Yeah, I’m sorry to say, I’ve close personal relationships with some people involved in ATC and in particular NATS in the U.K. and the Irish approach to ATC appears to be inefficient and seems to leave a lot of room for improvements that would benefit all parties

Bsal

Irish Steve wrote: »

While I'm no fan of the IAA's ATC management, it's a little unfair to compare Heathrow with Dublin at the moment, in that Heathrow is a dual runway operation, and more significantly, does not have the variety of aircraft sizes that are in use at Dublin, it's been a very long time now since things like ATR's and the like were part of their mix, so they don't get the problems with separation that happen at Dublin. Another huge advantage they have at Heathrow is their "land after" system, which could in theory be applied at Dublin when there's no depature in between.

Yes, Dublin need to up their game some, and DAA also have to share some of the blame for very poor design decisions in relation to the layout of stands and access routes.

I would like to hope that IAA will indeed up their game when the second runway comes into use, it will certainly make operations simpler in terms of the way the slots are allocated, and should make it easier to get the throughput that is needed.

There is another problem to be addressed in relation to the close proximity of the UK air space boundary, if London impose flow control restrictions, that immediately makes problems for Dublin to dispatch at the speed they could acheive.

Flybe have been operating Dash 8's at Heathrow for a while now so they have a good mix there too and doesn't cause any problems.