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The End for Youghal?

Isambard

and other lines

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/midleton-youghal-line-may-formally-shut/2572831/

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BonnieSituation

Isambard wrote: »

That's good, can I propose the Newmarket branch line, 45 minutes by congested road to Cork so got to be up there with Youghal when it comes to re-opening

You know what sentiment is being conveyed. There's no real need for the facetiousness.

tabbey

Isambard wrote: »

That's good, can I propose the Newmarket branch line, 45 minutes by congested road to Cork so got to be up there with Youghal when it comes to re-opening

While I would love to see a G class borrowed from the ITG pulling a couple of laminates full of enthusiasts and tourists from Banteer to Newmarket, it would not be a real resource for everyday transport needs. It might be busy for the Curran anniversary, but that is it.

Youghal, on the other hand, has an alignment capable of competing with the N25 road, a road which is congested once you leave the N25 and reach Dunkettle or Tivoli.

There is not yet enough traffic to justify immediate re-opening, but it is only a matter of time before it is desirable.

If the Youghal line was abandoned, the authorities would deserve the curses which would be showered on them, in a very short time.

marno21

In my opinion, the Youghal alignment is viable (by the time they actually get around to building it it will be anyway) for these reasons:

1. Youghal has quite a lot of tourist potential both from outside Cork and from within Cork. It's just outside the Wild Atlantic Way but I think it could be regenerated in its own right.
2. Youghal could complement the Waterford greenway by being used for its proximity. I don't think the Midleton-Youghal greenway would be quite as attractive as the Waterford one.

and the key ones:

3. Unlike the other cities in Ireland, there is a focus in Cork on dense development and making full use of newly available development land on both the north and south banks of the River Lee. There is (space for) 5,000 jobs coming online at the railway station itself, 3,000 at Navigation Square just along the river, and more coming along as Tivoli + south Docks are redeveloped. We can't have people driving in to these jobs, the capacity isn't there.
4. If Cork City centre is being developed based on sustainable transport, a railway connected Youghal could be a destination for these people that doesn't require a car.

It's a pity the N25 is so far offline from the railway line east of Midleton as it would create a fantastic opportunity for a "Parkway" type park and rail setup in the short/medium term. Midleton railway station is of no use for citybound commuters on the N25 as it's quite a distance from the Lakeview roundabout and requires transitting Midletown town (there is a relief road west of Midleton but that's a bit circuitous)

I have objected to this line in the past but I think the redevelopment of Cork city centre and the densification makes it a meritorious option, along with the direct routing. I think it would be imprudent to dispose of the alignment at this stage.

It's also a low hanging fruit in such a way as to the fact that of the national routes entering Cork (N8/N20/N22/N25/N27/N28/N71), both the N20 and N25 corridors are the only ones with railway alignments. The alignments along the N22, N28 and N71 corridors have been destroyed

Del.Monte

I was going to post this on the Train Porn thread but perhaps it belongs here.

tabbey

You could buy a tolerable house for £200 in 1861.

Was Dr Conquest an ancestor of yours?

Incidentally when was the C&Y taken over by the GS&WR, and did the shareholders get any return on their investment?

I posted too soon, I see the liquidator paid 10%.

marno21

In the paper again with the public consultation ending soon

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/former-town-councillor-rails-against-plans-to-convert-youghals-old-line-to-greenway-877249.html

Markcheese

marno21 wrote: »

In the paper again with the public consultation ending soon

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/former-town-councillor-rails-against-plans-to-convert-youghals-old-line-to-greenway-877249.html

He's not all wrong.. the terrain is flat, and relatively straight... But it is scenic....
A greenway will bring more economic activity to youghal than the line has for the last 30years.. Or for the next 30 for that matter...
He's quoting Ennis to Athenry as a success? I don't think it does much economically for any of
The towns and villages along the way..

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

He's not all wrong.. the terrain is flat, and relatively straight... But it is scenic....
A greenway will bring more economic activity to youghal than the line has for the last 30years.. Or for the next 30 for that matter...
He's quoting Ennis to Athenry as a success? I don't think it does much economically for any of
The towns and villages along the way..

a line that hasn't been operational can't bring anything, so it's unfair to compare it to a not yet built greenway of which the success can't really be gauged until it's built. also, we cannot say that a greenway would bring more, or even any economic activity over a non-existant line for the next 30 years given there is no operational line nor no greenway. realistically, the youghal line's case is about commuters and relieving congestion on the roads rather then economic activity from tourists.

Isambard

the thing is, if you listed all the railway projects that might be possible in order of benefits accruing, this line would be well down the list. If any investment becomes available for rail development , it needs to be directed first to the areas where it will be of the most benefit. What we don't need is projects to rebuild lines simply because they were there once. Yes, it would be great to see trains running into Youghal, but there are greater priorities.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

the thing is, if you listed all the railway projects that might be possible in order of benefits accruing, this line would be well down the list. If any investment becomes available for rail development , it needs to be directed first to the areas where it will be of the most benefit. What we don't need is projects to rebuild lines simply because they were there once. Yes, it would be great to see trains running into Youghal, but there are greater priorities.

yes there are greater priorities, however we aren't talking about reinstating youghal today or tomorrow but down the line. starting a campaign to reinstate it now puts the idea out there and hopefully on the government agenda. we aren't rebuilding lines because they were once there, we are looking to rebuild a couple of lines because they are infrastructure that will allow for the towns they once served to be developed and grown to help boost, and eventually relieve the pressure, of our cities. i believe that towns with road and rail infrastrcture are the ones to grow, as they will have the capacity to handle the people. i believe they would also allow for us to spend money more wisely on road infrastructure, hopefully delivering more and better infrastructure for more people, because we aren't just spending the money on specifically trying to handle the congestion issues of towns with road only access.

whisky_galore

Markcheese wrote: »

He's not all wrong.. the terrain is flat, and relatively straight... But it is scenic....
A greenway will bring more economic activity to youghal than the line has for the last 30years.. Or for the next 30 for that matter...
He's quoting Ennis to Athenry as a success? I don't think it does much economically for any of
The towns and villages along the way..

Some ho-hum farmland and boring as hell marshes and reeds.

Don't think the people of Youghal are that bothered either way, there was always the air of 'meh' about the place.
The greenway has garnered the usual shares and likes from slacktivists.

Markcheese

whisky_galore wrote: »

Some ho-hum farmland and boring as hell marshes and reeds.

Don't think the people of Youghal are that bothered either way, there was always the air of 'meh' about the place.
The greenway has garnered the usual shares and likes from slacktivists.

Oh well, I've always liked ho-hum farmland...
And am positively thrilled by marshes and reedbeds... But that's just me,
Youghal has always struck me as a bit... Lost...
Its not industrial or a service centre, its only kind of a dormitory town, and a bit half assed a tourist town, but if kinsale or clonakilty had its history, heritage,monuments, architecture or beaches we'd never hear the end of it..
And now there'll be a green way ending in the town, right next to their board walk...

Del.Monte

Markcheese wrote: »

Oh well, I've always liked ho-hum farmland...
And am positively thrilled by marshes and reedbeds... But that's just me,
Youghal has always struck me as a bit... Lost...
Its not industrial or a service centre, its only kind of a dormitory town, and a bit half assed a tourist town, but if kinsale or clonakilty had its history, heritage,monuments, architecture or beaches we'd never hear the end of it..
And now there'll be a green way ending in the town, right next to their board walk...

I imagine Kinsale would kill to have their railway back now - nothing like hindsight as will be the case in 10/20 years time in Youghal.

Markcheese

Del.Monte wrote: »

I imagine Kinsale would kill to have their railway back now - nothing like hindsight as will be the case in 10/20 years time in Youghal.

I didn't even realise kinsale had a rail line in the past? When did that disappear?
I know clonakilty did, I think it was a spur off the main west Cork line. (there's still a crossroad just past bandon with a big clonakilty junction sign.)
On the hindsight thing, how long should a poorly used, poorly performing line be kept going for, on the possibility of being resurrected at some distant future point

L1011

Earlier closure then most in 1931

Del.Monte

Markcheese wrote: »

I didn't even realise kinsale had a rail line in the past? When did that disappear?
I know clonakilty did, I think it was a spur off the main west Cork line. (there's still a crossroad just past bandon with a big clonakilty junction sign.)
On the hindsight thing, how long should a poorly used, poorly performing line be kept going for, on the possibility of being resurrected at some distant future point

The Kinsale branch closed as long ago as September 1931.

Losty Dublin

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Kinsale branch closed as long ago as September 1931.

What? We can't blame Todd or CIE??

Seanmk1

Kinsale closed in 1931

Check out GeoHive http://bit.ly/2RdlJ6I

Not much of the station left: http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20K/Kinsale/IrishRailwayStations.html#

Funny that GeoHive still shows the route today:http://bit.ly/2R86fkj

marno21

If this closure goes ahead it'll be a very depressing day. There is no shortage of more appropriate greenway alignments in Ireland.

A disused railway connecting into a recently opened commuter line with 30 minute frequency at peak times that goes directly into the city centre of the countries 2nd city, a city currently building vast amount of offices within walking distance of the train station. It's quite disappointing

Youghal could really do with this too seeing as it's a post industrial town that's now an outer commuter town for Cork.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

I imagine Kinsale would kill to have their railway back now - nothing like hindsight as will be the case in 10/20 years time in Youghal.

The Kinsale branch and the City end of the West Cork "main line" were so indirect and twisty (therefore slow) that it could not even compete with a bicycle, never mind motor vehicles.

Other than as a heritage line, it is useless.

Reputable Rog

marno21 wrote: »

If this closure goes ahead it'll be a very depressing day. There is no shortage of more appropriate greenway alignments in Ireland.

A disused railway connecting into a recently opened commuter line with 30 minute frequency at peak times that goes directly into the city centre of the countries 2nd city, a city currently building vast amount of offices within walking distance of the train station. It's quite disappointing

Youghal could really do with this too seeing as it's a post industrial town that's now an outer commuter town for Cork.

That's quite a Russian Doll you have going on there. You make some good points but you can seriously see someone cycling from Youghal to Midleton to get on a train to Cork?

Markcheese

Reputable Rog wrote: »

That's quite a Russian Doll you have going on there. You make some good points but you can seriously see someone cycling from Youghal to Midleton to get on a train to Cork?

Lads, I think ye're both arguing the same side...

. . . Realistically though , how far in the future could anyone see the youghal line reopening as a railway..? 20 30 years time?
And what advantage would there be for youghal? That couldn't be provided by 4 or 5 decent bus/coaches and a decent timetable at a fraction of the cost...

Reputable Rog

It's not going to reopen period, a lot of the way has been annexed by opportunist individuals.

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

Lads, I think ye're both arguing the same side...

. . . Realistically though , how far in the future could anyone see the youghal line reopening as a railway..? 20 30 years time?
And what advantage would there be for youghal? That couldn't be provided by 4 or 5 decent bus/coaches and a decent timetable at a fraction of the cost...

reopening the line will allow for lots of capacity which in turn can allow the road capacity within the area to last a lot longer before it needs expansion. in turn allowing the town to grow and be attractive to live in.
coaches don't allow for that. they will have to rely on the existing roads and all that brings. extra infrastructure to allow them to be any way attractive will cost, for which you may as well just bite the bullit and reopen the line.

Markcheese

There were just 3 stops on that line past Midleton, mogeely (a very small village), killeagh and youghal... (Eastern edge of town).
. . . Not a massive population...
The current line Cork Midleton line needs to be properly "finished" yet.
There's no station In carrigtohil's industrial estate, theres no transport (shuttle) from little island station to the industrial estates in little island, the park and ride stop at dunkettle(to serve glanmire) got scrapped, the idea of a through train to Mallow and reopening kilbarry station(blackpool) was scrapped.
Its not easy to get from Kent station to anywhere but the city centre, which isnt huge, you can't really link up easily with the south ring (n40), the airport, ucc, CUH,
So apart from a relatively small number of city centre office staff, school kids and some weekend shoppers every one else who lives in East Cork drives..
Maybe one day it'll be different...
There are a couple of new stations proposed, mainly for dormitory towns, (where everyone will have 2 car households), but no plans to try link up to where people actually work...
Sticking youghal on would make Feic all difference, now. But maybe in 20 or 30 years time...

Quackster

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It's not going to reopen period, a lot of the way has been annexed by opportunist individuals.

As far as I'm aware, it hasn't been abandoned so it's still protected from squatters rights by the Act of Parliament that established it.

Markcheese

I think someone posted a Google maps picture or a link of at least one piece that's been acquired (it may be an old railway house and yard that's been sold off).. And I'm sure there'll be other bits that have been used... But Largely it's still there...

Itssoeasy

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It's not going to reopen period, a lot of the way has been annexed by opportunist individuals.

As it's not been officially closed it's not their land to use. If it was to ever open again those Individuals would have their coughs rightly softened.

marno21

The Echo had an opinion piece up yesterday by a Councillor in Middleton advocating for the greenway

The comments on the post were about 10:1 in favour of a railway. I really hope these people are making their views known given there is a consultation ongoing

Reputable Rog

He's not a councillor, Labour have only 1 member and he's Cobh based. It is essentially the same as you or me or any other member of the public writing an opinion piece.
It's the NTA that will decide its future as a rail line in any event.