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ICU Easter Open

sodacat11

Good idea by the ICU to gauge interest in the tournament before committing itself to any large expenditure!
https://www.icu.ie/events/1067

Personally I would prefer a round robin event but I guess that it is easier to fund the invitation of titled players by having an open. Perhaps an accelerated draw would be a nice compromise and would facilitate the pursuit of norms as well as attracting more strong players?

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Joedryan

I presume IM's and FM's would not also have to pay 100 euro to enter?
Been a while since I have been asked to pay entry fee to a tournament. Last time was an ICU event in fact

So maybe some more details?

sodacat11

Joedryan wrote: »

I presume IM's and FM's would not also have to pay 100 euro to enter?
Been a while since I have been asked to pay entry fee to a tournament. Last time was an ICU event in fact
So maybe some more details?

I don't see why they should get in free when they are the ones who benefit most from there being norm chances.
100 euro is steep so there would want to be VERY generous grading prizes.
I'm playing in Malta next month. Fiight 88 Euro return, 7 nights B&B in a four star hotel 210, tournament entry 70 Euro. Now that's what I call good value!!

Joedryan

Good value indeed.
On the Irish open idea there might well be norm chances but the thing with opens is you are kind of obliged to get off to a good start or else it becomes almost impossible due to the Swiss pairing system.
I would have thought free entry for IM's and FM's would increase the over-all quality of the tournament for everybody else? 100 euro does seem a bit steep for an Open. What would the u-2300 grading prize be?

sodacat11

Joedryan wrote: »

Good value indeed.
On the Irish open idea there might well be norm chances but the thing with opens is you are kind of obliged to get off to a good start or else it becomes almost impossible due to the Swiss pairing system.
I would have thought free entry for IM's and FM's would increase the over-all quality of the tournament for everybody else? 100 euro does seem a bit steep for an Open. What would the u-2300 grading prize be?

That is why I suggested an accelerated start for a round or two,it would ensure that the norm hunters are playing higher rated opposition and us lesser lights wouldn't have to be paying 100 Euros to play 13 or 1400 rated players. You are right that IMs and FMs attract other players.
My 210 for the hotel is now in some doubt (long story) but accommodation is very good value nevertheless.

brilliantboy

sodacat11 wrote: »

That is why I suggested an accelerated start for a round or two,it would ensure that the norm hunters are playing higher rated opposition and us lesser lights wouldn't have to be paying 100 Euros to play 13 or 1400 rated players. You are right that IMs and FMs attract other players.

And what is in it for the 13 or 1400 players then? For a lot of people the highlight of their tournament is getting to mix it up with the big dogs in Round 1. Nobody is entering a tournament just so they can be in the same room as some random Eastern European or English title holder. They want to play them if at all possible.

Open should mean open, not "We'll take your 100 euro but stay the hell away from us".
If the sole purpose is norm chances then I agree all play all events are the better solution.

On the subject of higher ratings attracting more entries, I notice that the tournament page displays ICU ratings rather than their FIDE equivalents which are significantly higher in some instances. The same is the case for the Limerick Open which I believe is also FIDE rated(?)
If a taller number draws a bigger crowd then maybe this should be adjusted?
It might also serve to appease/forewarn players like sodacat who think they are playing 13 or 1400s but are actually playing players much closer to their own strength.

sodacat11

With an accelerated draw a 13 or 1400 would probably get a couple of 17 or 1800s in the first two rounds, if they can do well against them they they've earned the chance to catch a bigger fish,if not then they should accept their limitations and adjust their ambition accordingly.
There are other very attractive tournaments on over Easter, the Grenke Open for example where many of us have played before, so unless people feel that they are going to get good opposition in the ICU event they will simply play elsewhere.

Joedryan

brilliantboy wrote: »

And what is in it for the 13 or 1400 players then? For a lot of people the highlight of their tournament is getting to mix it up with the big dogs in Round 1. Nobody is entering a tournament just so they can be in the same room as some random Eastern European or English title holder. They want to play them if at all possible.

Open should mean open, not "We'll take your 100 euro but stay the hell away from us".
If the sole purpose is norm chances then I agree all play all events are the better solution.

On the subject of higher ratings attracting more entries, I notice that the tournament page displays ICU ratings rather than their FIDE equivalents which are significantly higher in some instances. The same is the case for the Limerick Open which I believe is also FIDE rated(?)
If a taller number draws a bigger crowd then maybe this should be adjusted?
It might also serve to appease/forewarn players like sodacat who think they are playing 13 or 1400s but are actually playing players much closer to their own strength.

I kind of agree with that actually. As a young player I was often lucky to be paired against the number one seed in a tournament in the first rd - Fedorowicz in Young Masters in England, Hodgson in British ch, and more I cant remember right now. Michael Adams maybe? Played him a few times so not sure. It kind of makes the tournament more special even though I think I lost all those games.

brilliantboy

sodacat11 wrote: »

There are other very attractive tournaments on over Easter, the Grenke Open for example where many of us have played before, so unless people feel that they are going to get good opposition in the ICU event they will simply play elsewhere.

Where they'll shamelessly subject much stronger players to the same kind of mismatches they're so opposed to here

Tim Harding

The last time an international Open was held in Dublin was 1991: the Telecom Eireann sponsored tournament principally organised by John Gibson, so I think it is not overdue to run another one, if the money and support is available.

I certainly hope it would be well supported by irish players of all strengths. Already over 40 people have expressed an interest on the ICU website and the range of ratings shows that accelerated pairings would be desirable for the first two (or three?) rounds to maximise opportunities for norm-seekers.

On the question of the ratings published on the ICU site, the players' current ICU ratings get displayed automatically. To change that to FIDE ratings would require human intervention on a daily basis as new names come in. If the tournament is actually going ahead, then a chess-results page can be generated by the ICU which would display the FIDE ratings of entrants, even months in advance, as the Reykjavik open usually does. Or it can just be done on an ordinary web page as Isle of Man and Gibraltar do it.

The proposed dates of 17-22 April (9 rounds in 6 days) look good, and fit in well with Reykjavik which will be running 8-16 April, so there is a prospect of attracting quite a few players who might fly directly to Dublin from Iceland, but to take advantage of this opportunity (as no doubt the ICU executive are aware) the sooner the plans can be firmed up the better.

Realistically it might possibly be too ambitious to set up an event where GM norms are realistically possible, as the financial outlay for conditions to GMs would make the budget much bigger.
Of course some GMs who often play in Ireland would perhaps be invited if they are not too expensive, but in an Open you would need a lot of GMs to give players a reasonable chance of meeting three, which makes a round-robin event (either alongside or at a separate time) the better option for a GM norm event.
Realistically we have two players at present looking for GM norms (Alex Lopez and David Fitzsimons) so they would probably need to be consulted privately about their preferences. Some assistance to send them abroad to, for example, Reykjavik or Gibraltar, would make more sense, I think.

So what we are trying to achieve - apart from generally raising interest and the profile of chess - is international experience for a fairly large pool of improving young players and of course IM norms for several candidates. Also we have at least two players in the hunt for WIM norms (Ioana Miller and Diana Mirza) who should not be forgotten. (Though I think Diana may be doing the Leaving next year and so an Easter event would not be at the right time for her?)

Clearly an entry fee scale related to titles, current FIDE rating and age (concessions for young juniors and 65+ senior) is necessary, and tournaments like Reykjavik can be looked at for that. Also for rating prize bands, junior and women's prizes. There does need to be some incentive for the lower rated players.

I think an €100 entry fee for a player who has an FM title is probably too high. FMs are trying to obtain an IM norm but they also do contribute to the pool of titled players which an IM-norm seeker requires. (For example, somebody trying to get an IM norm in a 9-round tournament needs to meet five titled players of whom three must be IM or GM; the other two can be FM or WIM or even I think WFM. They also cannot afford to meet low-rated opponents, though the lowest can be raised to 2050 for purposes of calculating their norm.)

Declaring an interest: personally I would not be playing but would be an assistant arbiter, having got my NA license recently and now working towards FIDE Arbiter. A tournament like this would be a norm towards it, and there are a couple of other newly-qualified NAs who are probably in the same position. As Ireland does not have many active arbiters, the ICU might have to budget for expenses for a couple of arbiters from abroad, if only to have some languages covered. A lot would depend on the size of entry.

sodacat11

brilliantboy wrote: »

Where they'll shamelessly subject much stronger players to the same kind of mismatches they're so opposed to here

As far as I remember tournaments like Grenke and Gibraltar use an accelerated draw to avoid mismatches as much as possible.
The Isle of Man has a completely open draw but you can't get in unless you are 2100

sodacat11

Joedryan wrote: »

I kind of agree with that actually. As a young player I was often lucky to be paired against the number one seed in a tournament in the first rd - Fedorowicz in Young Masters in England, Hodgson in British ch, and more I cant remember right now. Michael Adams maybe? Played him a few times so not sure. It kind of makes the tournament more special even though I think I lost all those games.

I am sure that when you got paired with those guys you were a lot higher rated than 13 or 1400.
The main reason that players rated below 2200 want to play GMs is because of a kind of chess snobbery.They just love dropping the names of titled or higher rated players they've played into every conversation particularly if they were lucky enough to have got a result with one of them. "I see you have a new car?" "CAR? Oh yes, funny that reminds me of my draw with Carlsen" "Your old car was knackered then?" " Yeah, actually I played Nakamura just last month, Fritz says I was .50 better after six moves but I couldn't drive home my advantage" bla bla bla.
I would much rather play someone within 200 points (up or down) of my rating where any result is possible than have to play a 1300 or 2600 player where the result is a foregone conclusion unless the better player has a hangover or bird flu.

sodacat11

Joedryan wrote: »

I kind of agree with that actually. As a young player I was often lucky to be paired against the number one seed in a tournament in the first rd - Fedorowicz in Young Masters in England, Hodgson in British ch, and more I cant remember right now. Michael Adams maybe? Played him a few times so not sure. It kind of makes the tournament more special even though I think I lost all those games.

brilliantboy

sodacat11 wrote: »

I would much rather play someone within 200 points (up or down) of my rating where any result is possible than have to play a 1300 or 2600 player where the result is a foregone conclusion unless the better player has a hangover or bird flu.

Or hasn't updated their openings since Fischer was strutting around the tournament halls and doesn't have as much time to study as those pesky kids

sodacat11

If someone can maintain a high rating without depending on memorizing copious amounts of opening theory then fair play to them, I'd have much more respect for them than those who just parrot the moves of others.

brilliantboy

sodacat11 wrote: »

If someone can maintain a high rating without depending on memorizing copious amounts of opening theory then fair play to them, I'd have much more respect for them than those who just parrot the moves of others.

What was that line about chess snobbery again?

Joedryan

I think chess is moving more and more away from forced lines personally, although obviously Najdorf and Dragon aficionados will not agree.
But Carlsen's main contribution as a World Ch for me is to show that people can simply get off the beaten track early and "play chess".
Also look at all these games in the Giuoco Piano now, it has almost taken over from the Spanish. Yes there is theory but more important is to understand the plans and have a deep understanding of the positions.
Even Kramnik started playing the Colle-Zukertort which I gave up because i assumed it was rubbish

sodacat11

brilliantboy wrote: »

What was that line about chess snobbery again?

Nothing to do with snobbery, some people have talent and others just copy them. It doesn't take any kind of skill to catch someone out in a prepared variation copied from someone else.

sodacat11

Joedryan wrote: »

I think chess is moving more and more away from forced lines personally, although obviously Najdorf and Dragon aficionados will not agree.
But Carlsen's main contribution as a World Ch for me is to show that people can simply get off the beaten track early and "play chess".
Also look at all these games in the Giuoco Piano now, it has almost taken over from the Spanish. Yes there is theory but more important is to understand the plans and have a deep understanding of the positions.
Even Kramnik started playing the Colle-Zukertort which I gave up because i assumed it was rubbish

Very true, great players trust themselves to outplay others from a level or even slightly worse position. I don't like Carlsen much but he does deserve a lot of credit for advancing this trend. Caruana is another very imaginative player so the title match should be fascinating.

brilliantboy

Chess is a funny business. Good players trust themselves to outplay others in complex positions requiring deep understanding yet they're falling over backwards to avoid the Berlin Endgame :rolleyes: A few years ago the Petroff was dismissed as a borefest leading to dead positions everywhere and now it's all the rage because Caruana is playing it. Players will do whatever they can to get a competitive edge. If that means memorizing reams of theory, they'll do it. If it means playing the Italian or d3 Spanish because that's the in vogue way to "get some play" then they'll do that.

sodacat11

brilliantboy wrote: »

Chess is a funny business. Good players trust themselves to outplay others in complex positions requiring deep understanding yet they're falling over backwards to avoid the Berlin Endgame :rolleyes: A few years ago the Petroff was dismissed as a borefest leading to dead positions everywhere and now it's all the rage because Caruana is playing it. Players will do whatever they can to get a competitive edge. If that means memorizing reams of theory, they'll do it. If it means playing the Italian or d3 Spanish because that's the in vogue way to "get some play" then they'll do that.

Chess is like cooking.Some chefs follow recipes and weigh, measure and time everything. Their dishes are very nice and nourishing and never fall below or rise above a certain good standard but they are all the same.
There are others who never use recipes or formula but can throw any assortment of ingredients into a pot and produce an outstanding meal most of the time.
The first is probably the guy you want working in your restaurant if you run a business but the second is the guy who you want cooking your meals.

Joedryan

Chess is like cooking eh?
Personally I always thought the closest thing to it was snooker.

sodacat11

Joedryan wrote: »

Chess is like cooking eh?
Personally I always thought the closest thing to it was snooker.

I used to play a lot of snooker and really the only similarity between the two games is the sheer bloody frustration. Golf is even worse, one day you think you are hitting the ball like Tiger Woods the next day you are more like Woody Woodpecker.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Hi All,

Having secured interest from around 80 players in the end (with 15 of those already entering), we have decided to go ahead with this event and have announced the initial details here: https://www.icu.ie/news/2412

We're very grateful to the MHL Hotel collection for coming on as our first sponsor and I expect to add another sponsor by the new year. Huge thanks also to Gonzaga for agreeing to host.

Information on 2 items (prize fund breakdown and accelerated pairings) aren't included in the initial details which I'll address in short order once I've the Phil Hogarty Memorial in January tidied away (need to secure the last of the titled players and work on getting the numbers out). It is likely that pairings will be accelerated for some of the initial rounds but I haven't had a chance to go over this with my arbiter. I've a draft of the prize fund but am not quite happy with the breakdown just yet and want to take another look once I've some free time. Its currently similar to the Reykjavik model but I'd prefer more of a trickle down.

Initial titled players entered:
GM (Ante) Saric
GM Ruck
GM Thorfinnsson
IM Thorfinnsson
IM Quinn
IM Krutti

I'm working with 5-6 more at the moment and will try to keep the ICU entry list up to date as more players confirm.

Would appreciate if you could spread the word to your club-mates, friends, family, mortal enemies and people you run into on the street - new events are quite stressful and its difficult to plan for every eventuality but having the membership's support would be a great first step.

Any further questions/suggestions to chairperson@icu.ie.

sodacat11

Sounds like a great event. I'm glad to hear that the prize money is going to filter down through the rating bands because 100 euro would be a bit steep if there was no chance of winning a prize.

Joedryan

IM Krutti - think I beat him 20 odd years back in York if it is the same person, and resigning he just said to me "You are a good poker player"

Took that as a compliment mind

Retd.LoyolaCpt

I've done a slight re-brand of the event in case anyone is searching for the event; essentially the names are interchangeable: Irish International Open vs Irish Easter Open.

1 2600 confirmed:
GM Seb Maze

5 2500s confirmed:
GM Vladimir Epishin
GM Ognjen Jovanic
GM Robert Ruck
GM Ante Saric
GM Nicholas Pert

3 2400 GMs Confirmed:
GM Aleksa Strikovic
GM David Larino
GM Bragi Thorfinnsson

8 IMs/FMs:
IM Valer Krutti
IM David Fitzsimons
IM Bjorn Thorfinnsson
IM Mark Quinn
FM Conor O'Donnell
FM Stephen Brady
FM Colm Daly
WFM Manuela Schmitz

7 Others:
Killian Delaney
John McMorrow
Peter Carroll
CM Andreas Arnold Schmitz
Julian Kersten
Yaakov Sokolinsky
Nadejda Reprun

Retd.LoyolaCpt

2 months to go - we now have 37 entries from 16 countries. Entries have been uploaded to chess-results (minus IM Mannion who just entered this evening):
http://chess-results.com/tnr414002.aspx?lan=1

Tim Harding

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

2 months to go - we now have 37 entries from 16 countries. Entries have been uploaded to chess-results (minus IM Mannion who just entered this evening):
http://chess-results.com/tnr414002.aspx?lan=1

What is rather noticeable about the pattern of entries so far, looking down that list, is the big gulf of nearly 300 FIDE rating points between Killian Delaney and the next highest rated Irish-based player.

Sub-2200 and Sub-1800 rating prizes might help?

Surely we are not leaving it to sodacat and a few juniors to fly the flag in that mid-range zone?

(In case anyone wonders why my own name is not on the list, I shall be on the arbiters team.)

Also, is our Irish Champion golng to enter?

pdemp

Tim Harding wrote: »

What is rather noticeable about the pattern of entries so far, looking down that list, is the big gulf of nearly 300 FIDE rating points between Killian Delaney and the next highest rated Irish-based player.

Sub-2200 and Sub-1800 rating prizes might help?

Surely we are not leaving it to sodacat and a few juniors to fly the flag in that mid-range zone?

(In case anyone wonders why my own name is not on the list, I shall be on the arbiters team.)

Also, is our Irish Champion golng to enter?

Maybe "grading" prizes, based on highest difference between actual score and expected score, rather than fixed rating bands.

Tim Harding

pdemp wrote: »

Maybe "grading" prizes, based on highest difference between actual score and expected score, rather than fixed rating bands.

The main thing is to offer something to attract more Irish entries, especially in the 1700-2199 rating zone.

These are players who typically play in the Armstrong and should welcome the opportunity to meet overseas master and expert opposition. It's rather surprising not to see many takers as yet.

As the ICU so far has been stressing the number of titled players who have entered, I wonder has that made the field look top-heavy and consequently been depressing home interest?

Whatever is offered, it needs to be clarified that it will be FIDE ratings that count because they are what applies in this event and of course lower-rated overseas entrants would have to be eligible.