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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

kuro68k wrote: »

The British government is going to take it right to the cliff edge and hope that someone else compromises. Of course they have their excuses already lined up if no-one does, only real question is who they will blame.

1. The EU
2. Remainers
3. Ireland
4. Corbyn

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Capt'n Midnight

nc6000 wrote: »

First mention I've seen of The Falklands. Are they currently in the EU?

The UK Overseas Territories, including the Falkland Islands will cease to be covered by the OAD once the UK has left the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/countries/falkland-islands_en

Under the 11th EDF, Falkland Islands has been granted an indicative amount of €5.9 million for the period 2014-2020.Under the 11th EDF, Falkland Islands has been granted an indicative amount of €5.9 million for the period 2014-2020.

There would also be an impact on government finances with an annual loss of revenue of up to 16%,

Rhineshark

Firblog wrote: »

So how come it is more ridiculous than expecting the UK/NI to accept the same deal to be foisted on them?

Look at a map. That large section of blue is what makes it a different prospect. The sea is far more practical than a land border crossing people's farms, cutting through towns and occassionally businesses and houses. There is already more of a de facto sea border than there is a land border, given the all-island agricultural unit requiring checks at entrance to GB.

And far less people actively suffer from a sea border. Yes, it is a psychological issue in particular for the Unionists. The border towns will go back to dying out with a land border. But they are far more likely to be nationalist, hence the utter lack of the DUP giving a damn. It will also destroy NI's agriculture - and will hit ours fairly hard too.

So, yeah, there is a pretty big difference between the sea border and a land border south of Donegal, Leitrim etc. Besides, exactly how far should we press ourselves into the ground to help the UK through its self inflicted mess? Should we offer to rejoin to help out too?

charlie14

Firblog wrote: »

We most probably would ok, but won't UK have to check everything coming from NI if they accepted the offer on the table?

What I'm looking at is putting the shoe on the other foot to see how we would like the fit.. maybe have an idea then why the solution being offered to the UK / NI is not being grabbed by both hands by them as everyone seems to think its such a great offer by the EU

Well it was Britain that voted to leave the EU, not the EU that voted to leave Britain so I can see why the EU would wish to get the best deal possible for the remaining members.

Call me Al

Firblog wrote: »

So how come it is more ridiculous than expecting the UK/NI to accept the same deal to be foisted on them?

Because they've signed up to the Good Friday agreement.
And this whole project has been undertaken by them, without any regard to the other signatories who realise any change to the status quo will have catastrophic consequences for the peace process.
It would appear that eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Firblog

Rhineshark wrote: »

Look at a map. That large section of blue is what makes it a different prospect. The sea is far more practical than a land border crossing people's farms, cutting through towns and occassionally businesses and houses. There is already more of a de facto sea border than there is a land border, given the all-island agricultural unit requiring checks at entrance to GB.

And far less people actively suffer from a sea border. Yes, it is a psychological issue in particular for the Unionists. The border towns will go back to dying out with a land border. But they are far more likely to be nationalist, hence the utter lack of the DUP giving a damn. It will also destroy NI's agriculture - and will hit ours fairly hard too.

So, yeah, there is a pretty big difference between the sea border and a land border south of Donegal, Leitrim etc. Besides, exactly how far should we press ourselves into the ground to help the UK through its self inflicted mess? Should we offer to rejoin to help out too?

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

FrancieBrady

Firblog wrote: »

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

Is it not an excercise in saving the Unionist/UK bacon. Because that is what it sounds like.

charlie14

Firblog wrote: »

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

Sounds as if rather than move a border you are looking to move time back prior to 1st. January 1973

Call me Al

Firblog wrote: »

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

Well of course they're not happy with it. I think most of us realise that. It's not what they expected to be offered.
But they should realise that they're not going to be offered much better. And I think, if numbers permitted, that TM would have jumped at the current offer by now.
Your exercise of essentially removing ROI from the EU single market is, if i may be frank, quite nuts.

Firblog

charlie14 wrote: »

Well it was Britain that voted to leave the EU, not the EU that voted to leave Britain so I can see why the EU would wish to get the best deal possible for the remaining members.

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

Firblog

Call me Al wrote: »

now.
Your exercise of essentially removing ROI from the EU single market is, if i may be frank, quite nuts.

And the EU's attempt at removing NI from the UK & NI is a object lesson sanity and common sense? Politically what is the difference?

Nate--IRL--

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

It is the UK that will be jumping off a cliff without a thought that they drag us along as collateral damage.

Nate

Anthracite

Firblog wrote: »

So how come it is more ridiculous than expecting the UK/NI to accept the same deal to be foisted on them?

I'm no ra-ra republican, but the suggestion that it is 'ridiculous' is rather dependent on you pretending that NI is basically the same, historically, geographically and culturally, as Kent.

Once you admit that it's not, the ridiculousness tends to evaporate.

Firblog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is it not an excercise in saving the Unionist/UK bacon. Because that is what it sounds like.

How could it be? I'm not in a position of power in the UK or EU; Not using boards as a sounding board before launching a devious 11th hour plan to split ROI from rest of EU

Bigus

Firblog wrote: »

Was listening to Ivan on newstalk this eve on about Brexit, everyone was saying how EU was making concessions allowing such a good deal to NI, to stay in EU/Single Market and wasn't it terrible how such concessions were being thrown back in their face and how could DUP be as stupid as to continue blocking it etc.

Now I always like to look at things inversely when trying to figure out why people aren't agreeing with some seemingly great offer that is being made, and came up with this..

What if UK said, here's a way to get over the whole soft border thing.. We will allow Donegal, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth have a free trade area with UK, that way there'll be no hard border between NI and ROI, this will be the new backstop, and we'll allow it to go on forever.. Now of course there will have to be checks between these counties and the rest of the Republic but sure won't it be the best of both worlds for those counties (much like it's being claimed for NI in the present offer from EU) Do you think EU and Leo, FF, SF would think that was a good deal?

So your saying (I'm quoting Andrew maxwell )move the British border in Ireland even more into irish Territory ?

FrancieBrady

Firblog wrote: »

And the EU's attempt at removing NI from the UK & NI is a object lesson sanity and common sense? Politically what is the difference?

They aren't. A border is required and they are trying to mitigate the damage that requirement might cause.

Firblog

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It is the UK that will be jumping off a cliff without a thought that they drag us along as collateral damage.

Nate

No Nate, they may have actually believed that the negotiations couldn't have gone so badly

Firblog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They aren't. A border is required and they are trying to mitigate the damage that requirement might cause.

They aren't what? - Who's They?

FrancieBrady

Firblog wrote: »

They aren't what? - Who's They?

The EU...are not trying to separate NI from the Uk.

charlie14

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

I don`t see that on border issue that the EU are "trying to shaft UK". More a case of them trying to prevent a hard border on this island that would be, as you, say damn near catastrophic not just for the RoI but also NI.
Then again, it would not surprise me greatly if we come under pressure from the EU to accept a time-limited backstop "for the greater good"

Nate--IRL--

Firblog wrote: »

No Nate, they may have actually believed that the negotiations couldn't have gone so badly

I agree, a UK cabinet sized illustration of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Nate

Firblog

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

I agree, a UK cabinet sized illustration of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Nate

Good man, had to google that

Call me Al

Firblog wrote: »

And the EU's attempt at removing NI from the UK & NI is a object lesson sanity and common sense? Politically what is the difference?

How do you mean whats the difference? They're not being wrenched apart unless they want to do so.
It's the EU negotiating in the interests of it's member states. And upholding the Good Friday Agreement. That's right.. . Politically acting for us.
Ultimately i don't think anyone in Brussels could care less about the internal machinations of the UK. Those in government buildings in Dublin do when it comes to the 6 counties and direct consequences for us..

Firblog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The EU...are not trying to separate NI from the Uk.

Having the border in the sea between uk and ireland, would have the same effect on the polictical / economic union between UK and NI as having the border in the sea between France and Ireland would have on our political / economic union between us and the EU surely? and judging by the reaction to the suggestion is receiving here it's not something that we'd be too happy with but think those in the north and UK should suck up

Call me Al

Firblog wrote: »

Having the border in the sea between uk and ireland, would have the same effect on the polictical / economic union between UK and NI as having the border in the sea between France and Ireland would have on our political / economic union between us and the EU surely? and judging by the reaction to the suggestion is receiving here it's not something that we'd be too happy with but think those in the north and UK should suck up

But most in the North don't want to Brexit

Anthracite

Firblog wrote: »

No Nate, they may have actually believed that the negotiations couldn't have gone so badly

They (presumuming you mean the English and Welsh electorate who actually voted for this clownfest) never gave a second's thought to the border in Ireland.

Firblog

Call me Al wrote: »

But most in the North don't want to Brexit

Most didn't want it when the vote took place is true, but wouldn't be so sure that those unionist who voted to remain in the EU would still hold that view if they were going to be edged out of the union with the UK to stay in the EU.

FrancieBrady

Firblog wrote: »

Having the border in the sea between uk and ireland, would have the same effect on the polictical / economic union between UK and NI as having the border in the sea between France and Ireland would have on our political / economic union between us and the EU surely? and judging by the reaction to the suggestion is receiving here it's not something that we'd be too happy with but think those in the north and UK should suck up

There is already border requirements enacted in the Irish Sea. The 'relationship' only changes if they want it to.

If the EU wanted to break them up they would have walked away long ago in December for example, saying 'No Deal' because that will manifestly attempt to break them up and possibly the entire UK.

Imreoir2

VinLieger wrote: »

Nothing separating NI and the UK....... except for abortion and same sex marriage

And automatic rights to citizenship of another country, and the EU.

Firblog

Anthracite wrote: »

They (presumuming you mean the English and Welsh electorate who actually voted for this clownfest) never gave a second's thought to the border in Ireland.

Ah yes and the Irish border was at the forefront of the minds of the electorate in Scotland when they went to the polls

charlie14

Firblog wrote: »

Ah yes and the Irish border was at the forefront of the minds of the electorate in Scotland when they went to the polls

Very few of them I imagine. But then unlike NI they do not share a border with any country other than a nominal one with fellow members of the UK.

Something that from the NI Brexit referendum vote looked to be a major consideration by voters there when they considered the effects of leaving.