Shoulder to Shoulder - BT Sport Documentary

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-10-2018 11:17pm #1

Anyone watching this on BT Sport 2 at the moment? Brian O'Driscoll presenting this as it describes the political backdrop of rugby throughout the Troubles.

I'm enjoying it. Amusing to hear the chain of events leading to the Rose of Tralee being used as the anthem.

Peregrine · 12-10-2018 11:21pm

Yep. I heard him mention it on Off the Ball a few weeks ago. Only saw the ad for it as I was turning off the Leinster match so I nearly missed it.

I liked it. I knew a lot of the history but I still learned a few things and it was great to get the perspective of the players.

techdiver · 12-10-2018 11:24pm

Excellent documentary. Really enjoyed it.

Cosmo Kramer · 12-10-2018 11:41pm

Really good documentary. Although I was a bit surprised at BOD's lack of understanding of the unionist viewpoint before going up there. Would have thought it would have come up more for him given how many unionist players he would have toured with during his career.

Squidgy Black · 13-10-2018 12:17am

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Really good documentary. Although I was a bit surprised at BOD's lack of understanding of the unionist viewpoint before going up there. Would have thought it would have come up more for him given how many unionist players he would have toured with during his career.

I'd imagine it was something that was never really spoken about. As a united Irish team I would say it was more than likely an out of bounds discussion point given how it could lead to contention.

Neil3030 · 13-10-2018 12:22am

Goes a very long way toward highlighting the nuance and complexity of Ireland (North and South) and it would be lovely if a Brexiteer or two might consider giving it a squiz.

bilston · 13-10-2018 12:58am

There are probably aspects of the programme we can't really talk about here.

However watching it made me realise just how important a figure to Irish rugby Willie John McBride was and is. Without him it's possible England may not have come over in 1973 and maybe then we wouldn't have an all island team now.

One very tiny political point to make...I'm a Northern Prod...I'm also a Unionist (albeit very liberal compared to some!) but for my situation I don't see a contradiction in being Irish, Northern Irish/Ulsterman and British. That is probably difficult for people south of the border to get their head around. So I can relate to the Orangemen that BOD spoke to in Loughall. I suppose it shows there are different definitions to Irishness.

Hopefully that's not too political MODs, if it is delete away!

A-Train · 13-10-2018 9:00am

I watched this after I got home from the match last night, I thought it was great.

prawnsambo · 13-10-2018 9:10am

bilston wrote: »

There are probably aspects of the programme we can't really talk about here.

However watching it made me realise just how important a figure to Irish rugby Willie John McBride was and is. Without him it's possible England may not have come over in 1973 and maybe then we wouldn't have an all island team now.

One very tiny political point to make...I'm a Northern Prod...I'm also a Unionist (albeit very liberal compared to some!) but for my situation I don't see a contradiction in being Irish, Northern Irish/Ulsterman and British. That is probably difficult for people south of the border to get their head around. So I can relate to the Orangemen that BOD spoke to in Loughall. I suppose it shows there are different definitions to Irishness.

Hopefully that's not too political MODs, if it is delete away!

Having spent a lot of time in my younger days across the border, I can fully understand your position. Great to have you express it here and it's always been my experience that people of your background can be open about your loyalties, yet at the same time be able to take and give monumental slagging about it.

Remember being at a business meeting in Armagh years ago and the MD asking "why are we dealing with the free state?". And I replied "because we're cheaper". He laughed at that and gave me the order.

Paul Smeenus · 13-10-2018 9:53am

I think folk from other places find it hard to get their heads around the fact that we can be cheerfully British and Irish. A lot of people have a much simpler, more straightforward sense of identity, and consider it a binary thing. I don't. It took me a long time to get to the stage of being comfortable telling people, and dealing gracefully when they were often quite dismissive- "you can't be both!!"

Yeah, I can. Ironically, what brought me to that conclusion is that fact that one of my best mates is a second generation British Indian. I always considered his sense of Inidain/British identity as much more complicated and nuanced than mine, and then realised that maybe that sense of not having one "off the shelf" identity was valid for me too. I grew up with him and it literally took years until I thought maybe there was a similar duality there.

Haven't seen the doc. Not sure I'll bother. BOD is obviously the biggest name in recent Irish history, which is why he's presenting it. But I don't know why you wouldn't get an Ulster player who knows firsthand about how complicated those loyalties are that pull you in different directions. He's kind of an everyman for the audience "I don't understand this any more than you, so you'll learn as I learn". It's the standard approach (he's the IRFU's Stacey Dooley!) But a more personal take would have been interesting. Tommy Bowen wants to do TV - a Northern Catholic Nationalist, playing for Ulster, and then Ireland. He must have some thoughts on it. Or Andy Trimble, who is very open and naturally funny.

prawnsambo · 13-10-2018 9:57am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Haven't seen the doc. Not sure I'll bother. BOD is obviously the biggest name in recent Irish history, which is why he's presenting it. But I don't know why you wouldn't get an Ulster player who knows firsthand about how complicated those loyalties are that pull you in different directions. He's kind of an everyman for the audience "I don't understand this any more than you, so you'll learn as I learn". It's the standard approach (he's the IRFU's Stacey Dooley!) But a more personal take would have been interesting. Tommy Bowen wants to do TV - a Northern Catholic Nationalist, playing for Ulster, and then Ireland. He must have some thoughts on it. Or Andy Trimble, who is very open and naturally funny.

I think Tommy is still learning his trade, but when he gets more confortable, himself and Andy Trimble would be brilliant. Really like Andy's understated sense of humour and infectious laugh. Actually surprised me because he often struck me as being quite withdrawn. He seems a natural for broadcasting.

Neil3030 · 13-10-2018 10:08am

I don't struggle with the Irish/British identity thing. What I can't get my head around is the antipathy toward England amongst Unionists.

bilston · 13-10-2018 10:18am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I think folk from other places find it hard to get their heads around the fact that we can be cheerfully British and Irish. A lot of people have a much simpler, more straightforward sense of identity, and consider it a binary thing. I don't. It took me a long time to get to the stage of being comfortable telling people, and dealing gracefully when they were often quite dismissive- "you can't be both!!"

Yeah, I can. Ironically, what brought me to that conclusion is that fact that one of my best mates is a second generation British Indian. I always considered his sense of Inidain/British identity as much more complicated and nuanced than mine, and then realised that maybe that sense of not having one "off the shelf" identity was valid for me too. I grew up with him and it literally took years until I thought maybe there was a similar duality there.

Haven't seen the doc. Not sure I'll bother. BOD is obviously the biggest name in recent Irish history, which is why he's presenting it. But I don't know why you wouldn't get an Ulster player who knows firsthand about how complicated those loyalties are that pull you in different directions. He's kind of an everyman for the audience "I don't understand this any more than you, so you'll learn as I learn". It's the standard approach (he's the IRFU's Stacey Dooley!) But a more personal take would have been interesting. Tommy Bowen wants to do TV - a Northern Catholic Nationalist, playing for Ulster, and then Ireland. He must have some thoughts on it. Or Andy Trimble, who is very open and naturally funny.

Tommy is in the documentary...albeit relatively briefly.

To be honestI think it's the interviews with the likes of Willie John, Davy Irwin, Nigel Carr, Trevor Ringland and Donal Lenihan, who is very interesting, that are the most interesting part of it.

Mrcaramelchoc · 13-10-2018 10:23am

Any idea where this can be watched?

Going mad i missed it.

OldRio · 13-10-2018 10:26am

People complain about BT and Sky TV coverage playing to its audience. Unfortunately this did the same. A hell of a lot of history unsaid.

Paul Smeenus · 13-10-2018 10:33am

Well, most would see themselves as closer to Scottish. And their attitude to a lot of the English would be similar to the attitude of those from the People's Republic of Cork to D4. Or Mancs to Londoners. Or Derry wans to Belfastians. You can resent those you feel are part of your national family, as it were.

markc1184 · 13-10-2018 10:33am

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Any idea where this can be watched?

Going mad i missed it.

Repeated tonight after the Ulster game. BT Sports 2 at 7.45. I missed it myself.

Paul Smeenus · 13-10-2018 10:35am

That was to Neil, by the way.

razorblunt · 13-10-2018 11:28am

It was good, I thought the contributors were excellent, particularly Lenihan who always speaks very well.
I think the fact the players don't seem to talk about the issues anyway shows how far the situation has come, back in the 80s they seem to have lots of chat with each other about it. Or maybe they spend too long on their phones nowadays!!!

CatFromHue · 13-10-2018 12:47pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Haven't seen the doc. Not sure I'll bother. BOD is obviously the biggest name in recent Irish history, which is why he's presenting it. But I don't know why you wouldn't get an Ulster player who knows firsthand about how complicated those loyalties are that pull you in different directions. He's kind of an everyman for the audience "I don't understand this any more than you, so you'll learn as I learn". It's the standard approach (he's the IRFU's Stacey Dooley!) But a more personal take would have been interesting. Tommy Bowen wants to do TV - a Northern Catholic Nationalist, playing for Ulster, and then Ireland. He must have some thoughts on it. Or Andy Trimble, who is very open and naturally funny.

I haven't seen it but I do know it was BOD's and Craig Doyle's idea to do the doc. They set up a production company to make it.

Paul Smeenus · 13-10-2018 1:22pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Haven't seen the doc. Not sure I'll bother. BOD is obviously the biggest name in recent Irish history, which is why he's presenting it. But I don't know why you wouldn't get an Ulster player who knows firsthand about how complicated those loyalties are that pull you in different directions. He's kind of an everyman for the audience "I don't understand this any more than you, so you'll learn as I learn". It's the standard approach (he's the IRFU's Stacey Dooley!) But a more personal take would have been interesting. Tommy Bowen wants to do TV - a Northern Catholic Nationalist, playing for Ulster, and then Ireland. He must have some thoughts on it. Or Andy Trimble, who is very open and naturally funny.

I haven't seen it but I do know it was BOD's and Craig Doyle's idea to do the doc. They set up a production company to make it.

Doesn't mean BOD had to present it. Suppose it means they didn't have to pay for a presenter.

But I haven't seen it, so I'll reserve comment til I do.

Heres Johnny · 13-10-2018 1:42pm

It was very good. One of my earliest rugby memories was the peace international in 1997. And croke park 10 years later was unbelievable. Good to see some earlier stuff. My dad told me about 73 and the ovation for England so good to see footage which I never had before. And the lovely phrase
'We might not be any good but at least we turn up'

Mrcaramelchoc · 13-10-2018 7:56pm

Its just started on bt2 now

Elvisjuice · 13-10-2018 8:46pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Doesn't mean BOD had to present it. Suppose it means they didn't have to pay for a presenter.

But I haven't seen it, so I'll reserve comment til I do.

maybe watch it , the whole idea of it is someone from the south looking north so why have trimble or bowe

Peregrine · 13-10-2018 9:00pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Doesn't mean BOD had to present it. Suppose it means they didn't have to pay for a presenter.

But I haven't seen it, so I'll reserve comment til I do.

It's supposed to be from the perspective of someone from the outside looking in. I think it resonates with most British and Irish viewers who don't really know much about life in Northern Ireland during The Troubles.

Paul Smeenus · 13-10-2018 10:18pm

Yeah, look at my first post, I know exactly why it was done that way. I just don't think that always gives the best insights in documentary - it can lead to conclusions that lack nuance.

The doc may well be made exactly as they intended it. Do BOD and Craig Doyle know the best way to deal with the issue?

I'm no more interested in hearing BOD examine the Northern Unionist meaning of playing for Ireland than I am seeing a man interview women about what childbirth is like. Just give the authorship to the ones with the experience of the unusual.

Neil3030 · 13-10-2018 11:00pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, most would see themselves as closer to Scottish. And their attitude to a lot of the English would be similar to the attitude of those from the People's Republic of Cork to D4. Or Mancs to Londoners. Or Derry wans to Belfastians. You can resent those you feel are part of your national family, as it were.

Tbh I find Scotish Unionist antipathy to England equally puzzling. Cities forced to coexist within a country is one thing, but nations voluntarily existing within a union with a clear main player (England), and a portion of each nation feeling so passionately in support of the union, but deeply disliking said main player? Just don't get it!

its_phil · 13-10-2018 11:06pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, look at my first post, I know exactly why it was done that way. I just don't think that always gives the best insights in documentary - it can lead to conclusions that lack nuance.

The doc may well be made exactly as they intended it. Do BOD and Craig Doyle know the best way to deal with the issue?

I'm no more interested in hearing BOD examine the Northern Unionist meaning of playing for Ireland than I am seeing a man interview women about what childbirth is like. Just give the authorship to the ones with the experience of the unusual.

In the entire time you’ve spent debating about who’s presented it, you probably could have watched it.

Book and cover metaphor never more apt.

Squidgy Black · 13-10-2018 11:52pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, look at my first post, I know exactly why it was done that way. I just don't think that always gives the best insights in documentary - it can lead to conclusions that lack nuance.

The doc may well be made exactly as they intended it. Do BOD and Craig Doyle know the best way to deal with the issue?

I'm no more interested in hearing BOD examine the Northern Unionist meaning of playing for Ireland than I am seeing a man interview women about what childbirth is like. Just give the authorship to the ones with the experience of the unusual.

It's a fluff piece for a sports channel. It's not an in-depth study into the political relations, more a broad overview of it to anyone who doesn't know the background.

If it was on the History channel then yes, but it's literally just there for a few views and give an overlook of the history.

PTH2009 · 14-10-2018 12:16am

Anywhere to watch this for non BT Sport customers ?

Paul Smeenus · 14-10-2018 12:36am

its_phil wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, look at my first post, I know exactly why it was done that way. I just don't think that always gives the best insights in documentary - it can lead to conclusions that lack nuance.

The doc may well be made exactly as they intended it. Do BOD and Craig Doyle know the best way to deal with the issue?

I'm no more interested in hearing BOD examine the Northern Unionist meaning of playing for Ireland than I am seeing a man interview women about what childbirth is like. Just give the authorship to the ones with the experience of the unusual.

In the entire time you’ve spent debating about who’s presented it, you probably could have watched it.

Book and cover metaphor never more apt.

Sorry, amigo, I don't have access to it. I'm not sitting around in the house this weekend.

If I watch it and feel underwhelmed, does this debate rumble onward? Or can we put it to bed? Because for my part, I'm not interested. I do, however, feel compelled to reply when people ask questions of me (which is why I'm still posting), or correct someone when I think they've made a lazy assumption.

Shoulder to Shoulder - BT Sport Documentary

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