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Dublin 15 is going to get a lot more congested.

Phil.x

Man when will all this building in D15 stop.
Roads, rail, bus, amenities are at breaking point and in some cases broken.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/barnhill-local-area-plan-2017-2023-strategic-issues-paper

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beauf

Its all pointless discussing it anyway. The planners and/or local authorities basically allow all developments these days. Then act surprised when problems like gridlock, no school places, happen inevitability. They use the excuse of shortage of housing to allow developers free reign. They build on all the green area around schools, playing fields, parks. In the country its now like a measles all the one off housing all over.

Its a free for all.

blanch152

beauf wrote: »

See you are talking about European design guidelines, where they build infrastructure like public transport, and schools, often before they build the housing. They build family sized apartments with integrated facilities for children etc.

In Ireland we do the opposite. We build the housing (in this case high density) in a location where there already already decades of shortages of schools and capacity on the public transport specifically in this case the rail link.

Most old people don't want to live beside young people in apartments and we don't build apartments complexes suitable for families. Single people don't want to live beside babies, and young families don't want to live beside a bunch of students. We don't even have enforcement of antisocial activity, that would force people to act with respect of their neighbours. So while what you say its true in theory and in practice in Europe. It are incapable of doing this in Ireland. We build to make a fast buck. That is why its shambles. We will not build a mix that is suitable for all types. Which is why people get trapped in unstable housing. The banks won't let them move, the govt sits on their hands.

We have inadvertently addressed one of these issues in the city centre by allowing the building of large amounts of purpose-built student accommodation. It has been driven more by lower building standards which allowed developers to make better profits rather than good planning, but it has helped.

PhoenixParker

beauf wrote: »

See you are talking about European design guidelines, where they build infrastructure like public transport, and schools, often before they build the housing. They build family sized apartments with integrated facilities for children etc.

In Ireland we do the opposite. We build the housing (in this case high density) in a location where there already already decades of shortages of schools and capacity on the public transport specifically in this case the rail link.

Most old people don't want to live beside young people in apartments and we don't build apartments complexes suitable for families. Single people don't want to live beside babies, and young families don't want to live beside a bunch of students. We don't even have enforcement of antisocial activity, that would force people to act with respect of their neighbours. So while what you say its true in theory and in practice in Europe. It are incapable of doing this in Ireland. We build to make a fast buck. That is why its shambles. We will not build a mix that is suitable for all types. Which is why people get trapped in unstable housing. The banks won't let them move, the govt sits on their hands.

The design guidelines that came in at the very tail end of the boom address many if the issues you raise. There's a master plan for Hansfield which plans for the aspects you mention. Political pressure by citizens will be needed to make sure it happens.

I disagree with many of the presumption about where people want to live.

Old people want to be able to downsize but don't want to be leave their neighbours and the services their familiar with. A mix of house types facilitates that. Single people aren't all early 20s partiers. Plenty in their 30s and upwards want to live near their jobs, near friends with families etc. Lots of single people have babies and kids but can't afford a 3/4 bed house.

Former Former

d15ude wrote: »

Weren't it mostly 3/4 bed semi d being build in the last boom?

What's wrong about building apartments close to a train line (so people can walk to the station)?

People do not want apartments that far out. They just don't. There is literally nothing there.

What happened during the previous boom was that people bought apartments in places like Ongar or Tyrrelstown just to get on the property ladder because that's all they could afford, and with the intention of moving on in a couple of years.

So then in a couple of years you end with very low rates of owner-occupiers and the place goes to sh*t. Take a walk around some of the blocks in Ongar and then imagine what they'll be like in 10/20 years. Would Hansfield be different?

People have been talking about "downsizing" for years, it is never going to happen in any significant volume. I'm in my late 30s, my parents and all my friends' parents in D15 are in their 60s/early 70s and not one of them has downsized or has any intention to do so.

These apartments will end up being rented to low-income tenants, it's just a question of when.

beauf

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The design guidelines that came in at the very tail end of the boom address many if the issues you raise. There's a master plan for Hansfield which plans for the aspects you mention. Political pressure by citizens will be needed to make sure it happens.

Maybe in Ireland. In Europe they've been doing it for decades. In japan they plan new rail capacity to cater for new development.

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I disagree with many of the presumption about where people want to live.

Old people want to be able to downsize but don't want to be leave their neighbours and the services their familiar with. A mix of house types facilitates that. Single people aren't all early 20s partiers. Plenty in their 30s and upwards want to live near their jobs, near friends with families etc. Lots of single people have babies and kids but can't afford a 3/4 bed house.

I won't disagree with you, I was painting in very broad strokes.

But having tried to downsize quite a few elderly relatives and family members. I couldn't find anything suitable at all. Anything close to suitable were asking insane prices. Was cheaper to keep a larger property can convert it with stair lifts and baths. Spare room for over night carers etc. Any single people I know don't want to be in the suburbs miles away from everything. Maybe they are not typical. I don't know. A few bought houses and apartments as investments, and that was the driving motivation.

ongarboy

Glenveagh buys land capable of delivering over 1,200 homes

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/glenveagh-buys-land-capable-of-delivering-over-1200-homes-37170632.html

Potential for 1200 new homes in Tyrellstown! While there's plenty of space in that section of D15, I wonder how much public transport improvements would follow suit.

Hurrache

Public transport improvements should proceed planning permission being granted not following it.

AlanG

Former Former wrote: »

People have been talking about "downsizing" for years, it is never going to happen in any significant volume. I'm in my late 30s, my parents and all my friends' parents in D15 are in their 60s/early 70s and not one of them has downsized or has any intention to do so.

These apartments will end up being rented to low-income tenants, it's just a question of when.

A huge barrier to downsizing is the Fair deal scheme for nursing homes which takes all of your saings but only a small percentage of your family home. If you sell up your 600,000 family home and move in to a 200,000 apartment and then go to a home up to five years later the Gov will quite quickly take all of the 400,000 you had released plus about 22.5% of your 200k apartment (445,000). if you stay in your 4 bed home they will only take 22.5% of the 600k (135,000). Not too many people like to see the government taking the inheritance they saved for to build up for their kids and not too many kids would encourage their parents to downsize.

[Deleted User]

Just wanted to give a heads up for anybody who commutes to the city centre every day. There are 1000+ people moving onto this bus route in the next 2 years with new apartments. NTA have no intention to add new busses to route.

misspola

There is a whole new bus system to be implemented.

Nijmegen

Deleted User wrote: »

Just wanted to give a heads up for anybody who commutes to the city centre every day. There are 1000+ people moving onto this bus route in the next 2 years with new apartments. NTA have no intention to add new busses to route.

In fairness that might be a broad statement. The 39 has been a staple route since I was a nipper, and despite massive expansion in housing along the route over the years we do not find ourselves hanging out the windows Calcutta style. I'd suggest that where population grows, transport capacity does tend to follow. And it seems that in recent years there has been more joined up thinking around development generally (in relation to schools, amenities, and transport links - see Hansfield as a prime example).

beauf

Nijmegen wrote: »

...despite massive expansion in housing along the route over the years we do not find ourselves hanging out the windows Calcutta style....

That pretty much describes the trains at peak.

Nijmegen wrote: »

...I'd suggest that where population grows, transport capacity does tend to follow. And it seems that in recent years there has been more joined up thinking around development generally (in relation to schools, amenities, and transport links - see Hansfield as a prime example).

My trains are vastly busier but now shorter at peak times.
Local car Journeys are a nightmare at peak. Far worse than before.
Huge issue's with capacity with schools, catchments, and admission policies.
Peak now extends a lot longer than before.

So I'd have to disagree you on pretty much everything. Except about buses. Stopped using them years ago. Take too long, too unpleasant. Maybe they are fantastic these days.

I get into town on train in 30 mins (used to be 20mins) or about a 30 min cycling, 40 home. Regardless of traffic.

Nijmegen

beauf wrote: »

That pretty much describes the trains at peak.

My trains are vastly busier but now shorter at peak times.
Local car Journeys are a nightmare at peak. Far worse than before.
Huge issue's with capacity with schools, catchments, and admission policies.
Peak now extends a lot longer than before.

So I'd have to disagree you on pretty much everything. Except about buses. Stopped using them years ago. Take too long, too unpleasant. Maybe they are fantastic these days.

I get into town on train in 30 mins (used to be 20mins) or about a 30 min cycling, 40 home. Regardless of traffic.

I'd agree with you re trains and re road congestion; but re buses and OPs point I think bus capacity has quietly and consistently increased; and the number of unobstructed bus lanes is significantly improved over the years meaning this platform has adapted (probably best of all of them) to the changes.

Rail capacity is frustratingly slow to expand for a number of reasons. But I don't think, again to OPs point, that buses have lagged behind or that they're likely to do so again if more demand is added. Indeed, I would remark that congestion would fall a lot if only more people would use them.

[Deleted User]

Nijmegen wrote: »

In fairness that might be a broad statement. The 39 has been a staple route since I was a nipper, and despite massive expansion in housing along the route over the years we do not find ourselves hanging out the windows Calcutta style. I'd suggest that where population grows, transport capacity does tend to follow. And it seems that in recent years there has been more joined up thinking around development generally (in relation to schools, amenities, and transport links - see Hansfield as a prime example).

It actually is that bad at the moment. If you live anywhere between James Joyce bridge and the Navan Road, there is little to no chance of you getting a bus at peak times. We have recorded the 6am 39a full at 6am and unable to pick up passengers until after the luas line.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

It actually is that bad at the moment. If you live anywhere between James Joyce bridge and the Navan Road, there is little to no chance of you getting a bus at peak times. We have recorded the 6am 39a full at 6am and unable to pick up passengers until after the luas line.

It can be worse coming out of the city in the evening, where if you don't get on at Aston Quay, you might see five or six pass you by. As for getting on at Blackhall Place, count the number getting off, as that is the number who will get on.

thomasj

New 39A timetable on the way apparently that will change to every 15 minutes off peak.

Also heard a rumour that the first 39/A in the new timetable will be at 4.30

Phil.x

What is a sustainable community.

beauf

I think its time to surrender the train ticket and get back driving. Will never get on it once that is built.

Phil.x

beauf wrote: »

I think its time to surrender the train ticket and get back driving. Will never get on it once that is built.

When the rest of the park and hansfield is finished you won't be able to get on the train nevermind this new development.

beauf

True it's pretty hard now.

I've switched back to using the car a lot now.

Dr_Colossus

What are the chances of getting electrified double decker trains like they have in Europe since they can't extend the already 8 carriage long trains. Double decker would increase capacity and electrification would enable increased frequencies as well as a quicker journey.

Nijmegen

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

What are the chances of getting electrified double decker trains like they have in Europe since they can't extend the already 8 carriage long trains. Double decker would increase capacity and electrification would enable increased frequencies as well as a quicker journey.

The capital outlays for the rolling stock and electrification in the context of a lossmaking CIE would require major government investment. Also from a practical point of view, I wonder how many bridges etc would need to be moved to accommodate.

Phil.x

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

What are the chances of getting electrified double decker trains like they have in Europe since they can't extend the already 8 carriage long trains. Double decker would increase capacity and electrification would enable increased frequencies as well as a quicker journey.

Well they could easily double the 4 carriage trains on the m3/docklands line as the hansfield station will serve this new development, there is a new station planned for the maynooth line just after the clonsilla station, outbound.

cython

Phil.x wrote: »

Well they could easily double the 4 carriage trains on the m3/docklands line as the hansfield station will serve this new development, there is a new station planned for the maynooth line just after the clonsilla station, outbound.

Between that and Pelletstown they're determined to cripple the line speeds out this way, aren't they? Line electrification must precede any new stations, IMHO, as the current diesel stock is ill suited to the current gaps (acceleration and braking), never mind even closer stations.

lucernarian

cython wrote: »

Between that and Pelletstown they're determined to cripple the line speeds out this way, aren't they? Line electrification must precede any new stations, IMHO, as the current diesel stock is ill suited to the current gaps (acceleration and braking), never mind even closer stations.

There's some pretty low speed limits too on the stretch from Clonsilla-Maynooth that I wish they'd address quickly. And the level crossing closures too.

Zaph

Phil.x wrote: »

Well they could easily double the 4 carriage trains on the m3/docklands line as the hansfield station will serve this new development, there is a new station planned for the maynooth line just after the clonsilla station, outbound.

I'd be delighted if the Docklands train I get every morning was actually a 4 carriage one. 3 carriages at 7.25 used to be enough, and I'd frequently get a seat, even getting on at Coolmine. Now when the train pulls in there are already quite a few people standing. In the last few weeks I've seen people unable to get on at Ashtown and, in one case, unable to get off at Broombridge because the train is so crowded. No consideration has been given to how much busier the service has gotten since they opened the Luas at Broombridge, and the trains they use (22000 class) simply aren't suited for commuter traffic. They need to either lengthen the trains or replace them with the proper 29000 class commuter trains.

hotmail.com

Zaph wrote: »

I'd be delighted if the Docklands train I get every morning was actually a 4 carriage one. 3 carriages at 7.25 used to be enough, and I'd frequently get a seat, even getting on at Coolmine. Now when the train pulls in there are already quite a few people standing. In the last few weeks I've seen people unable to get on at Ashtown and, in one case, unable to get off at Broombridge because the train is so crowded. No consideration has been given to how much busier the service has gotten since they opened the Luas at Broombridge, and the trains they use (22000 class) simply aren't suited for commuter traffic. They need to either lengthen the trains or replace them with the proper 29000 class commuter trains.

The trains should reduce the seating and make more room for standing.

Standing up on a commuter train going into a city centre is a normal part of commuting life. Some Irish cling to the idea of getting a seat.

Zaph

hotmail.com wrote: »

The trains should reduce the seating and make more room for standing.

Standing up on a commuter train going into a city centre is a normal part of commuting life. Some Irish cling to the idea of getting a seat.

Just for clarity, that's the point I was making, I wasn't bemoaning the fact that I have to stand for a short 20 minute train trip. The trains currently being used are inter-city trains, not commuter trains, with very little standing capacity, and most of that is down a narrow centre aisle with single doors at each end of the carriage. I know Irish Rail are looking at leasing new rolling stock as an interim measure, but even then upgrades will be necessary to make them suitable for Irish tracks, while in the meantime they're operating a service that is possibly beyond normal 100% capacity at times and it's only going to get worse. On top of that there's the whole electrification of the Maynooth line debacle. I moved to D15 in 2004, and it was mentioned then that it would be happening in "a few years". It currently looks about as likely as me winning Miss World, and all we're hearing about now is new stations coming on-stream over the next while. Are they going to start allowing people on the roofs of the trains like in India?

Nijmegen

More carriages tends to lead to union disruption over pay.

Zaph

Nijmegen wrote: »

More carriages tends to lead to union disruption over pay.

Why? It's not like they're pulling the feckin' things themselves!