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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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loyatemu

Dublin Bus timetables and scrolls have always assumed local knowledge.

Shop River -> Enniskerry
Oldcourt -> Bray
Omnipark -> Santry

I always thought it was ridiculous that the old 45 left the City Centre displaying "Oldcourt" rather than "Bray" - I assume the modern digital scrolls can be programmed to change at certain point along the route? i.e. a bus could display "Enniskerry" until it actually got to the village and then change to "Shop River"?

Alun

Shop River is a small group of houses just after the bus stop on the left if you're heading away from Enniskerry. There is a small 'river', although unsure if that's actually Shop River, that originates in a small reservoir on the other side of the road that goes underground under the houses, reappears above ground and wends it's way towards Powerscourt, feeds another small reservoir close to the main car park, and ends up in the Dargle. You can see it all clearly on Google aerial photography if you look.

I agree though, it's a silly end destination to put on a bus serving Enniskerry.

Annasopra

CramCycle wrote: »

I know where the Health Centre is but no idea of Shop River, guessing the Upper Dargle Road? But no one has ever used that around here to me.

Yeah but who knows what health centre they are talking about? Bray? Delgany? Greystones? I had to try and figure out it was Delgany. "Health centre" is nonsense and assumes people know there is a health centre there

Annasopra

Alun wrote: »

Shop River is a small group of houses just after the bus stop on the left if you're heading away from Enniskerry. There is a small 'river', although unsure if that's actually Shop River, that originates in a small reservoir on the other side of the road that goes underground under the houses, reappears above ground and wends it's way towards Powerscourt, feeds another small reservoir close to the main car park, and ends up in the Dargle. You can see it all clearly on Google aerial photography if you look.

I agree though, it's a silly end destination to put on a bus serving Enniskerry.

Enniskerry Golf Club is worse! Google maps sends you somewhere near the N11 when you look for it. We still dont even know what golf club they are referring to. Powerscourt? The old pitch and putt that has been closed many years?

CramCycle

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yeah but who knows what health centre they are talking about? Bray? Delgany? Greystones? I had to try and figure out it was Delgany. "Health centre" is nonsense and assumes people know there is a health centre there

LOL, I was thinking of the Bray one, but only because i wasn't thinking of the bus route.

devnull

https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1050010737173762048

loyatemu

devnull wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1050010737173762048?s=19

bloody hell - 2 hours!

MJohnston

loyatemu wrote: »

bloody hell - 2 hours!

It's anywhere from a 30m to 60m trip in a car, which suggests they're building in a lot of leeway for traffic problems to the schedule. But yeah, that's what dwell times and frequent stops will do!

Stephen15

sugarman wrote: »

Joke of a decision to run it through Dundrum village to "serve" the Luas, its added an extra 15mins odd in heavy traffic to an already long route. It was less than a 5min walk to the either Dundrum or Balally Luas stops.

I can't see it lasting long fingers crossed it will be scrapped sooner rather than later.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Do you have pictures? They really should be using the same ones that went for the new stops for the 175 for the new services, since these are the best ones.

Sorry about the poor quality. I think its temporary. Btw route number can be seen at the top in this case its 63/63A . Even more misleading in some cases these appear alongside the outdated DB timetables.

http://imgur.com/gallery/xeWoHma

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

Sorry about the poor quality. I think its temporary. Btw route number can be seen at the top in this case its 63/63A . Even more misleading in some cases these appear alongside the outdated DB timetables.

http://imgur.com/gallery/xeWoHma

After all the good work that went into the guidelines and having a nice modern layout it's disappointing to see such poor layouts and presented information - why have they abandoned the principles and the layout they always planned to use and use with great success on the LUAS?

I certainly hope that they are temporary.

MJohnston

I see things are a bit slow in NBRU headquarters today again.

MJohnston

Tickityboo wrote: »

Do you honestly think someone in the NBRU is going to make that up?

Yes. Its very much on brand for them recently.

devnull

Tickityboo wrote: »

I'll just put this post back up as it was removed.

The post was removed because the user in question has been banned well into double figures for causing disruption on the C+T and other forums, trolling and continually re-registers to evade such ban, which is against the Boards Terms and Condition of use.

In addition I wouldn't go too much on that inside view of how things work on Go-Ahead since the exact same person has had well over a dozen other accounts where they claim they work for Dublin Bus so either they have swapped companies in the last few days or they are not being honest with folks.

It seems some moderator doesn't want people to know the truth!!

It's also against the rules to discuss moderation on-thread, which is clearly highlighted in the charter in this forum. No problem with people airing their views but it is standard practice for people who are banned, who re-register to evade that ban, to also have all further accounts banned.

If someone feels they have been wrongly banned they have the Dispute Resolution Process to argue against their ban, and also the Prison forum if it is a site-ban where appeals are independently heard. Unfortunately rather than avail of this system, the user in question has constantly re-registered and therefore the above process was invoked.

This shall be the last I say on the matter - all posters must read the charter at the top of the Commuting and Transport forum before posting again in reference to this.

- Moderator

Yer Da sells Avon

Tickityboo wrote: »

I'll just put this post back up as it was removed.
It seems some moderator doesn't want people to know the truth!!

It's not the truth though. The part about drivers quitting is completely untrue. As is the part about them having to pay €2,000 to leave. There is a training indemnity bond, whereby Go Ahead withholds €15 per week from drivers whom they trained. After two years with the company, that adds up to €2,000 and drivers - if they are still with the company - get it back in a lump sum. If they leave before the two years are up, the company holds onto that money. Fairly straightforward.

KC8

My quick assessment of Go-Ahead so far.

Go-Ahead rating 7/10:
Certain features of the timetable are positive (e.g. using a suffix to note journeys on the 75 through the industrial estate) and waiting for the last trains in Bray and Greystones each evening. But they get marked down for the lack of clockface timetable departures and the fact that there are still mistakes in their published timetables. For example, look at the evening Tallaght bound 75A services - the timetable makes no sense!! There are also different timetable versions within the GoAhead website and the NTA website. These should have been set and cross checked weeks ago but the sense is they were set at the last minute.

The other thing they fall down on is the fact that a driver might work a few routes on a shift - creating a knock on effect if one particular route is delayed. Such an approach needs extra turnaround times between services which don’t appear to be in place. Given their garages location I know why it’s needed. Perhaps the current problems will sort themselves out when all DunLaoghaire services transfer. Perhaps they are using a temporary setup until later this month.

The final positive for GoAhead is the flexibility to introduce extra services like on the 75 and 175 so quickly. I have never known Dublin Bus to introduce changes so quickly and that is to be welcomed.

NTA 1/10
The only reason they don’t get zero is that they actually achieved what many had tried and failed before - breaking the stranglehold of Dublin Bus. (This isn’t an inbuilt disliking for Dublin Bus - I think in the long term it will be great for them, they just don’t know it!). Beyond that, the NTA performance has been dreadful. Bus stops. Timetables. Publicity. RTPI etc. etc. Also the delays caused by the diversion of the 75 via Dundrum Luas is their fault. My solution would be that all peak time departures in both directions operate as 75As and go the old route through Dundrum and the other services divert along the new route when the traffic isn’t bad.

Livery 0/10 until I saw it in real life, now it’s just as good as the Dublin Bus one!

CatInABox

KC8 wrote: »

NTA 1/10
The only reason they don’t get zero is that they actually achieved what many had tried and failed before - breaking the stranglehold of Dublin Bus. (This isn’t an inbuilt disliking for Dublin Bus - I think in the long term it will be great for them, they just don’t know it!). Beyond that, the NTA performance has been dreadful. Bus stops. Timetables. Publicity. RTPI etc. etc. Also the delays caused by the diversion of the 75 via Dundrum Luas is their fault. My solution would be that all peak time departures in both directions operate as 75As and go the old route through Dundrum and the other services divert along the new route when the traffic isn’t bad.

I don't know, I have a little bit of sympathy for the NTA, mainly because some of the stuff that they're doing is quite simply brand new to them. Sure, they've screwed up on numerous fronts, but for me, the real test will come when they have to do something similar again. They need to show that they can learn from their mistakes.

In terms of work output from a government entity, I'd have them as one of the most productive over the last few years, even if I don't always agree with the results.

KC8 wrote: »

Livery 0/10 until I saw it in real life, now it’s just as good as the Dublin Bus one!

That's great, you're not the first to say that it looks good in person. I haven't seen it myself, so will hold off on judgement, but the views around it seem good to me.

Qrt

I remember hearing before that the NTA are suffering from chronic understaffing, is that true or was it just me hearing things?

punisher5112

KC8 what are you on about?

The NTA controls all routes so have go-ahead is no different at all as to how frequency has changed as of the same date of changes many many db routes have had their frequency increased given the go ahead by the NTA.

The NTA has given go ahead permission not that they just rock up take over and look at us we can increase the frequency.

The NTA has had this planned all along so no matter what go-ahead would look better as it looks like they are better.

Bus Connects is another thing that will make them also look better the more routes they get.

NTA amazingly stop db refund tickets on the day go ahead take over what were db routes.

Go ahead doesn't need to go to extra expenses of more staff, building, services etc etc for one to go collect their change.

All services could be improved over night if they brought in the travel 90 across the board and get people away from interaction with driver.

punisher5112

Qrt wrote: »

I remember hearing before that the NTA are suffering from chronic understaffing, is that true or was it just me hearing things?

The NTA I'm sure is well staffed as it's just a branch off of the department of transport.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

Qrt wrote: »

I remember hearing before that the NTA are suffering from chronic understaffing, is that true or was it just me hearing things?

The NTA I'm sure is well staffed as it's just a branch off of the department of transport.

The NTA were chronically understaffed and still are understaffed. They warned the department that if they were not able to recruit extra staff then it would effect their ability to deliver projects on time. The department has since allowed 12 extra staff but this only helped a small amount.

markpb

punisher5112 wrote: »

The NTA controls all routes so have go-ahead is no different at all as to how frequency has changed as of the same date of changes many many db routes have had their frequency increased given the go ahead by the NTA.

I'm very much an outsider here but my understanding is that whenever someone (NTA or DB management) want to change a route, it goes to the drivers/union for discussion. Several drafts of the timetable are debated and rejected, all taking time, until eventually a consensus exists and the new timetable can be published and made available to customers. This process might be quick sometimes but can be very slow other times and, in the case of Network Direct all those years ago, several changes were abandoned completely because of lack of agreement.

If GAI can implement a timetable change in a more efficient manner, I can understand why NTA would want to wait until GAI were running the routes before introducing the changes.

NTA amazingly stop db refund tickets on the day go ahead take over what were db routes.

It's not amazing at all. Trying to get rid of change facilities in the past would have been politically difficult because of the inevitable whinging. Trying to support change receipts with two different operators with two different settlement models would be expensive for NTA to implement or tricky for customers. Getting rid of it now is both efficient and easy to explain.

All services could be improved over night if they brought in the travel 90 across the board and get people away from interaction with driver.

Agreed.

punisher5112 wrote: »

The NTA I'm sure is well staffed as it's just a branch off of the department of transport.

They are very understaffed.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

The NTA controls all routes so have go-ahead is no different at all as to how frequency has changed as of the same date of changes many many db routes have had their frequency increased given the go ahead by the NTA.

True but DB keep their own fare revenue but fare revenue from GAI goes back to the NTA as GAI are paid a set fee so DB have more autonomy.

The NTA has given go ahead permission not that they just rock up take over and look at us we can increase the frequency.

The NTA has had this planned all along so no matter what go-ahead would look better as it looks like they are better.

You're sort of jumping to a conclusion there that after a slightly shakey start which can be expected Go-Ahead are bad bus service I will reserve my judgment for Go-Ahead after 6 months to a year not after less than week of operating DB routes. The NTA recently announced one the largest route expansion plans for DB routes too so they're hardly just trying to make Go-Ahead look good.

Bus Connects is another thing that will make them also look better the more routes they get.

Bus Connects has nothing to do with Go-Ahead. DB recently had their direct award contract renewed so their operation will remain the same in size as it is now and as it was before GAI started operating. If GAI get more routes after Bus Connects it will be a result of increased levels of service. DB is also one of the agencies involved in drawing up the bus connects plan GAI are not.

NTA amazingly stop db refund tickets on the day go ahead take over what were db routes.

Well considering DB still keep their fares I would imagine they had some input into that decison

Go ahead doesn't need to go to extra expenses of more staff, building, services etc etc for one to go collect their change.

That would be the NTAs responsibility not GAIs as it's their fare revenue not GAIs. GAI are only responsible for the day to day operation the services

All services could be improved over night if they brought in the travel 90 across the board and get people away from interaction with driver.

True but to that you would also need to replace all the outdated wayfarers from DB buses. Not sure what ticketing equipment GAI buses are using.

Crazyrr1

Hi all dont post here ever. Just want to clarify some information here.
NTA decide the timetables for all routes. No changes can be made to posted tinetables without NTA approval. That goes for all pso contracts. DB ,go ahead etc. Db cant even put an extra bus on a peck times with the nod from the NTA.
Drivers are never involved in this process. DB Drivers do vote on duty timetables but they are an internal issue and dont affect customer timetables. GAI are in the same boat in regards to customer timetables but im sure the NTA is bending over a little to make the transition a little easier.
Union votes are done on the drivers / workers issues and not what the Nta want done..

KD345

Lots of problems with the 75 and 75A over the last few days. Twitter has many annoyed passengers late for work and school.

At times, the real time and journey planner apps show different arrival times, and the new TFI timetable is very confusing with a lot of errors. Look at the departures in the evening.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/TFI-Go-Ahead-Route-75a-Timetable-1.pdf

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

Lots of problems with the 75 and 75A over the last few days. Twitter has many annoyed passengers late for work and school.

The real time and journey planner apps seem to be showing different arrival times, and the new TFI timetable is very confusing to read with a lot of errors. Look at the departures in the afternoon.

That's because the journey planner shows scheduled times, unless otherwise indicated whilst the real time application, shows real time information, although it wasn't helped by the NTA suggesting people use the Journey Planner for real time information earlier in the week (which it can provide through the departures tab) which has confused people.

The PDF's are dreadful though, I'll give you that, in dire need of a proof read. They appear to have remove the 75 one though from the TFI and Go-Ahead site and gone back to older ones of a different layout.

At this stage I wouldn't be surprised if the next phase was delayed by a week at least, so they can sort these issues out, because honestly this first phase hasn't been a total disaster, but it's been very near and they need to sort these issues out before transfering anymore.

Stephen15

KD345 wrote: »

Lots of problems with the 75 and 75A over the last few days. Twitter has many annoyed passengers late for work and school.

At times, the real time and journey planner apps show different arrival times, and the new TFI timetable is very confusing with a lot of errors. Look at the departures in the evening.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/TFI-Go-Ahead-Route-75a-Timetable-1.pdf

I'm not surprised due to the crazy decision to reroute through Dundrum Village. I can see this being decision reversed in time if the NTA see sense and realise it serves little purpose other than adding time onto the journey. My guess a lot of the issues are due to this diversion and I am not one bit surprised.

The 75 has always had problems route due to it's lengthy running time and traffic delays as there are few bus priority measures along this route. An idea would be running a certain number of extra departures around peak times as short runnings going only to Dundrum.

Stephen15

I had a read of the GAI customer charter and one oddity I noticed was that it said lost property is held in Ballymount for two days and is then moved to the DB lost property office. I wonder what the story is with that.

Qrt

In an ideal world, Dundrum village would be essential access only. They have a bypass like!

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

I'm very much an outsider here but my understanding is that whenever someone (NTA or DB management) want to change a route, it goes to the drivers/union for discussion. Several drafts of the timetable are debated and rejected, all taking time, until eventually a consensus exists and the new timetable can be published and made available to customers. This process might be quick sometimes but can be very slow other times and, in the case of Network Direct all those years ago, several changes were abandoned completely because of lack of agreement.

If GAI can implement a timetable change in a more efficient manner, I can understand why NTA would want to wait until GAI were running the routes before introducing the changes.

It's not amazing at all. Trying to get rid of change facilities in the past would have been politically difficult because of the inevitable whinging. Trying to support change receipts with two different operators with two different settlement models would be expensive for NTA to implement or tricky for customers. Getting rid of it now is both efficient and easy to explain.

Agreed.

They are very understaffed.

The schedule process is now totally different.Maximum of two drafts,the second is implimented regardless of agreement,with one single independent referal tribunal to ultimately decide.

Process is now taking less than 2 weeks beginning to end.