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Child Item

Too many teachers in our schools are Irish nationals

RobertKK

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-teachers-disproportionately-white-irish-and-catholic-1.3642624

The majority of trainee primary school teachers are white, Irish and Catholic and do not reflect our diverse population, new research has found.

Dr Manuela Heinz and Dr Elaine Keane, from the school of education in NUI Galway, have carried out the first comprehensive and nationwide study in Ireland which explores the socio-demographic backgrounds of entrants to primary teacher education programmes.

Most people would expect teachers in Ireland to be nearly all Irish nationality as immigration from places like Poland for example hasn’t been going on for several decades. We have been a nation of emigrants for the most part.
This study is a bit silly in my opinion.
It states the obvious but jumps to conclusions as one couldn’t expect 11% of teachers to be from a foreign background when immigration has been so recent.
It doesn’t take research to know this...

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banie01

Surely whomever conducted this study laughed all the way to the Grant office?

Primary teaching in Ireland has particular requirements that 1st generation immigrants will be hard pushed to meet, namely Irish.

Now that should be much less of an issue for 2nd generation children of immigrants who were/are schooled in Ireland, but given that inward immigration in Ireland didn't really take hold until the late 90's and early 2000's, those children would only be hitting Uni around now.

So maybe a more balanced question would be, what percentage of current first teaching students are of immigrant stock?
One cannot expect a shift of 10% of a demographic in a tenured profession to occur with the immediacy it happens in the general population.

byhookorbycrook

seamus wrote: »

The Irish requirement disproportionately affects men.

Three-fifths of students who take honours Irish at the leaving cert level are female, and half of those women get a Grade 3 or higher, versus just 40% of men.

Someone with poor Irish is just going to write off primary teaching as a profession.

The Catholic issue is a barrier for gay people, men in particular. Gay women are subject to less scrutiny and suspicion than gay men in religious circles.

Irish isn't the issue for men, it's the lack of career progression that makes them look elsewhere/

"Catholic issue " isn't an issue.If it were, considering the majority of younger teachers are cohabiting with their partners (of any sexuality) wouldn't still be in jobs.And imagine if someone who wasn't married became pregnant? And teachers not going to mass every week ?No-one bats an eyelid at any of that.

Off the top of my head I can count 19 openly gay teachers that I know and again no-one has seen fit to burn them at the stake so far.

_Brian

Entrance to college places is 100% transparent, everyone from every background gets a chance to apply to train to be a teacher.

But if your not arsed to get sufficient education to apply and be successful then those that are get the places.

More focus on the most suitable for the positions and less focus on ensuring every skin colour and ethnic minority is represented.

Rodin

RayCun wrote: »

I'm not denigrating it. I'm saying that hardly anyone speaks it.

If I emigrated to Portugal, I would be surrounded by people speaking Portuguese. I could insist on speaking English very loudly, but if I wanted to learn Portuguese I could practice with everyone I met.

If someone from Portugal moved to Ireland they could learn English fairly easily, but if they asked for directions in Irish they would get a lot of blank looks.

Making Irish a requirement for primary school teachers makes it very, very difficult for people who didn't go to school in Ireland to become teachers.

I've no problem with that.

Badly Drunk Boy

seamus wrote: »

The Irish requirement disproportionately affects men.

Three-fifths of students who take honours Irish at the leaving cert level are female, and half of those women get a Grade 3 or higher, versus just 40% of men.

I doubt Irish has a big effect on the numbers of male primary school teachers. The latest figures have 13% male, 87% female in Ireland. That's a big difference but the EU average is 15.4% male, 84.6% female, so there isn't a huge difference from that average. Denmark has the biggest percentage of male primary school teachers in the EU but that figure is only 30.9%.

Check out the stats from 2014/2015 (section 4.7, and check 4.6 too):

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/education/

RayCun

Rodin wrote: »

I've no problem with that.

Why is leaving cert honours Irish necessary to teach primary school children?

Your Face

The proportions reflect the country this study is based in.
Ireland is predominantly white and Catholic.

What are they implying?

Sand

I don't see why the teaching population, or indeed trainee teachers, should reflect the general population. Teachers ought to be significantly better educated than the general population, including a command of Irish. There is no good reason to expect this skill/ability will be evenly distributed amongst the general population.

As for Irish teachers not reflecting our diverse population, this isnt a problem. Our diverse population is supposed to integrate with us. How else can they learn to integrate unless they are taught by Irish teachers?

RayCun

Sand wrote: »

Teachers ought to be significantly better educated than the general population, including a command of Irish.

So, teachers should be required to have honours English, and honours maths, and honours history, and honours geography, and honours in at least one science subject, because they teach all of these things too?

byhookorbycrook

Ideally, but at least taking those to a high level in college.

TCM

RayCun wrote:

So, teachers should be required to have honours English, and honours maths, and honours history, and honours geography, and honours in at least one science subject, because they teach all of these things too?

Perhaps you'd like to see anyone "rock on up" and let me teach. A prerequisite for teaching children is a requirement that teachers should have a high level of academic achievement. That's what I want for my children.

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Irish isn't the issue for men, it's the lack of career progression that makes them look elsewhere/

"Catholic issue " isn't an issue.If it were, considering the majority of younger teachers are cohabiting with their partners (of any sexuality) wouldn't still be in jobs.And imagine if someone who wasn't married became pregnant? And teachers not going to mass every week ?No-one bats an eyelid at any of that.

Off the top of my head I can count 19 openly gay teachers that I know and again no-one has seen fit to burn them at the stake so far.

Although there are proportionally more male primary principals than female.
So if anything the lack of career progression for women is greater than men in primary!

Stats mostly Taken from ..'Males into primary teaching' 2006

Rodin

RayCun wrote: »

So, teachers should be required to have honours English, and honours maths, and honours history, and honours geography, and honours in at least one science subject, because they teach all of these things too?

Sounds good.

evolving_doors

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I doubt Irish has a big effect on the numbers of male primary school teachers.

The latest figures have 13% male, 87% female in Ireland. That's a big difference but the EU average is 15.4% male, 84.6% female, so there isn't a huge difference from that average. Denmark has the biggest percentage of male primary school teachers in the EU but that figure is only 30.9%.

Check out the stats from 2014/2015 (section 4.7, and check 4.6 too):

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/education/

Actually it does... see page 17
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Policy-Reports/Males-into-Primary-Teaching-Report-of-the-Primary-Education-Committee-2006-.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjV5IqTs97dAhXIAcAKHdwGAmEQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0yCOQfAH_fjBXqfkxA-pSs

Comparing with the EU isn't exactly like for like as they don't have the Hons Irish requirement either. ... so if the Irish requirement were dropped who's to say we couldn't beat Denmark.

RayCun

TCM wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to see anyone "rock on up" and let me teach. A prerequisite for teaching children is a requirement that teachers should have a high level of academic achievement. That's what I want for my children.

At the moment, honours English and honours maths are not required, but honours Irish is.
Why that one?

pearcider

This is what happens when you fund sociology bs degrees. You get these “sky is blue” studies. All funded by the taxpayer of course. Two doctors. Doctors of what. Talking ****e is what.

Sand

RayCun wrote: »

At the moment, honours English and honours maths are not required, but honours Irish is.
Why that one?

If you're arguing that standards should be raised across the board, no one is going to argue with that.

If you're arguing that a command of Irish should not be a qualification, in the context of this thread that is irrelevant. It is, and those who can meet the requirement (and I cannot) are not evenly distributed across society. So the whole idea that teachers must be representative of the general population is based on a false premise.

RayCun

We can see that teaching a subject in secondary school requires expertise in that subject. It makes sense to require a degree in that subject, or at the very least a good leaving cert result in that subject.

Primary school teachers are generalists. It makes sense to require high grades across the board, or a generally high level of achievement, to be a primary level teacher.

It doesn't make sense to require primary level teachers to have expertise in one particular subject among the many they have to teach.

Sand

RayCun wrote: »

We can see that teaching a subject in secondary school requires expertise in that subject. It makes sense to require a degree in that subject, or at the very least a good leaving cert result in that subject.

Primary school teachers are generalists. It makes sense to require high grades across the board, or a generally high level of achievement, to be a primary level teacher.

It doesn't make sense to require primary level teachers to have expertise in one particular subject among the many they have to teach.

That's a different topic to the question raised in the OP. There's been many threads on the necessity of Irish, and I don't actually place huge priority on it. But the system does, arguably for good reasons.

But in any case if you're trying to argue that only Irish differentiates teachers from the general population, I believe you're mistaken. The points required for primary teaching in 2018 were 462. For comparison purposes, you could enter courses in Engineering (443) or Architecture (447) at UCC. 289 Points would get you into any course you wanted in Dublin Business School. Teachers aren't just getting by on Honours Irish. Primary teaching is in the upper echelons of points requirements and a single A in Honours Irish will not get you to the required points.

myshirt

delop wrote: »

Mafias tend to be homogeneous

You are a bit naive.

The mafia wouldn't get a look in with these f#ckers. They haven't a patch on them. Brass necks are a joke in the mafia, but these lads do brass necks up to a size 17. That swan who held up traffic on O'Connell bridge about 8 years ago couldn't compete with these fellas when it comes to having some neck. Smoking cigars, eating lobster, all on the back of the public and their younger colleagues. It'd sicken you.

RayCun

I'm not suggesting an A in honours Irish is sufficient.
I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary.

At the moment, if you have Irish and the points from other subjects, you only need pass maths, or pass English.
Why should Irish be the special requirement of those three subjects?

Sand

RayCun wrote: »

I'm not suggesting an A in honours Irish is sufficient.
I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary.

At the moment, if you have Irish and the points from other subjects, you only need pass maths, or pass English.
Why should Irish be the special requirement of those three subjects?

Well, because this is Ireland. Ireland and Irish. The clue is in the name. There are hints in the constitution.

It would be far more confusing if Honours Chinese was required to be a teacher in Ireland.

RayCun

Yeah, I specifically said "of those three subjects"

I'm guessing you would have been in favour of removing the requirement until you realized it disadvantaged immigrants.

Capt'n Midnight

irishgeo wrote: »

Tax payers money wasted on this. Why not have a survey that concludes the sky is disproportionately blue.

In Ireland ?

Most of the time it's cloudy. Our skies are grey.

The sunniest time in Ireland is summer and we only get about 6 hours of sunshine.

BTW Oktas are what you use to measure cloud cover.

[Deleted User]

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In Ireland ?

Most of the time it's cloudy. Our skies are grey.

The sunniest time in Ireland is summer and we only get about 6 hours of sunshine.

BTW Oktas are what you use to measure cloud cover.

And then you have night time, and red mornings and evenings..

JohnMc1

jacksie66 wrote: »

If it was up to the people who came up with this study every school in Ireland would have an on site mosque, synagogue and standard uniforms would be phased out in favour of gender neutral, multicultural garments and Irish culture would be regarded as racist..

For the love of God don't give them any ideas.

JohnMc1

pearcider wrote: »

This is what happens when you fund sociology bs degrees. You get these “sky is blue” studies. All funded by the taxpayer of course. Two doctors. Doctors of what. Talking ****e is what.

Shows you how good we have it now. The Left is actually trying to create problems in order to look like they're solving them.

Only a lunatic would think Irish teachers teaching in Ireland is a bad thing.

bigpink

Need more people from other backgrounds than country and gaa people and middle class

hatrickpatrick

zapitastas wrote: »

Drop into a pop up gaeltacht and you can speak as Gaeilge and have a few pints at the same time. Just because you have no interest in the national language there is no need to denigrate it.

Denigrating it and acknowledging that it's at most a recreational pastime for most Irish people are two very different things. You don't have to denigrate Irish to state that it's absolutely f*cking moronic for it to be a requirement for literally any profession for which it isn't directly relevant.

Schools should just employ one Gaeilgoir per school to teach Irish to all the different primary classes and then let people who don't speak Irish apply to teach all the other subjects if they so desire. Requiring fluency in a non-functional language for a job is completely mental.

evolving_doors

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In Ireland ?

Most of the time it's cloudy. Our skies are grey.

The sunniest time in Ireland is summer and we only get about 6 hours of sunshine.

BTW Oktas are what you use to measure cloud cover.

Naa he's right CapN , it is actually blue ...behind the clouds.
It's just you don't see it cos you're only out at night.