The Academies

Anyway...

Best halfbacks; Ben Murphy and David Fitzgibbon?

Heymans wrote: »

You get the feeling that there is a buffer put in place for Club players. They don't play to the same level as schools players for the first 14 years of their rugby playing life and therefore are not tried and tested under pressure. I can't help but feel they are molly coddled to "spread" the game further. Kind of like socialism. They are allowed to develop better than schools players who lose conditioning due to overplay.

That isnt true at all.
And where are you getting 14 years from? Majority of kids in rugby schools start their rugby in mini rugby and even first year of youths rugby in rugby clubs.
And not playing the schools cup doesnt at all mean theyre not tried or tested. That is a load of nonsense to suggest that.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That isnt true at all.
And where are you getting 14 years from? Majority of kids in rugby schools start their rugby in mini rugby and even first year of youths rugby in rugby clubs.
And not playing the schools cup doesnt at all mean theyre not tried or tested. That is a load of nonsense to suggest that.

He is a troll, why bother?

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That isnt true at all.
And where are you getting 14 years from? Majority of kids in rugby schools start their rugby in mini rugby and even first year of youths rugby in rugby clubs.
And not playing the schools cup doesnt at all mean theyre not tried or tested. That is a load of nonsense to suggest that.

Of course it's not nonsense. It is in fact very true to say that. Point to me a club competition that equals the Leinster senior or Junior Cups. There is so much prestige associated with the Cups that schools literally do everything in their power to win it. That involves much larger populations than are associated at one man and his dog clubs.

The level to which schools players are coached is close to professional - you don't see that with clubs and you can't see it with clubs who only coach in the evening times. For those who start their minis in clubs there is a gaping hole in the gap between lining out for your club on the weekend to training day in and day out with your school to fight for representing them in the Cup.

All in all there is a wide chasm between the two and the club players are molly coddled by the big wigs in Leinster Rugby to make themselves feel they are reaching outside the main catchment areas and are doing more for the game. It's nonsense and players should be picked on meritocracy.

Heymans wrote: »

Of course it's not nonsense. It is in fact very true to say that. Point to me a club competition that equals the Leinster senior or Junior Cups. There is so much prestige associated with the Cups that schools literally do everything in their power to win it. That involves much larger populations than are associated at one man and his dog clubs.

The level to which schools players are coached is close to professional - you don't see that with clubs and you can't see it with clubs who only coach in the evening times. For those who start their minis in clubs there is a gaping hole in the gap between lining out for your club on the weekend to training day in and day out with your school to fight for representing them in the Cup.

All in all there is a wide chasm between the two and the club players are molly coddled by the big wigs in Leinster Rugby to make themselves feel they are reaching outside the main catchment areas and are doing more for the game. It's nonsense and players should be picked on meritocracy.

You said there is a buffer. There isnt.
You said kids from youths rugby arent playing to same standard for first 14 years that is completely untrue. Overwhelming majority of kids start playing rugby in rugby clubs playing mini rugby there
We are seeing more and more progress from youths rugby and the top players between their clubs and leinster squads are getting as much/as good training as the schools..
And players are certainly picked on a meritocratic basis.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You said there is a buffer. There isnt.
You said kids from youths rugby arent playing to same standard for first 14 years that is completely untrue. Overwhelming majority of kids start playing rugby in rugby clubs playing mini rugby there
We are seeing more and more progress from youths rugby and the top players between their clubs and leinster squads are getting as much/as good training as the schools..
And players are certainly picked on a meritocratic basis.

Rubbish. Clubs are far behind schools in coaching standards. Certainly the consistency a schools players gets coaching is far more frequent than club players. And then there's all the analysis that goes along with schools rugby - this doesn't happen at club level. On top of that there is the S & C that goes on in schools that deosn't happen in clubs. There is no comaparrisson of the workload a schools player does versus club.

Heymans wrote: »

Rubbish. Clubs are far behind schools in coaching standards. Certainly the consistency a schools players gets coaching is far more frequent than club players. And then there's all the analysis that goes along with schools rugby - this doesn't happen at club level. On top of that there is the S & C that goes on in schools that deosn't happen in clubs. There is no comaparrisson of the workload a schools player does versus club.

In many clubs kids between their club, their school and the top players in regional/provincial squads are getting as much training as any schools player and if theyve turned 18 while still in secondary school and in a stronger club they can play adult rugby well above school standards.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

In many clubs kids between their club, their school and the top players in regional/provincial squads are getting as much training as any schools player and if theyve turned 18 while still in secondary school and in a stronger club they can play adult rugby well above school standards.

If that's case how do you explain the Michael's SCT hockeying the Belvo U20's last season 56 -0. I doubt the standard at AIL level is as good as schools. Certainly there's not the commitment there from players as there would be in school training every day. Going on to play adult rugby is a hobby - playing schools is a vocation.

Heymans wrote: »

If that's case how do you explain the Michael's SCT hockeying the Belvo U20's last season 56 -0. I doubt the standard at AIL level is as good as schools. Certainly there's not the commitment there from players as there would be in school training every day. Going on to play adult rugby is a hobby - playing schools is a vocation.

Michaels SCT side had several future pros, Belvo 20s had none.

Tarf1234

iminterestd0 wrote: »

Heymans wrote: »

If that's case how do you explain the Michael's SCT hockeying the Belvo U20's last season 56 -0. I doubt the standard at AIL level is as good as schools. Certainly there's not the commitment there from players as there would be in school training every day. Going on to play adult rugby is a hobby - playing schools is a vocation.

Michaels SCT side had several future pros, Belvo 20s had none.

Belvo were prem 2 also... silly argument/idiot to get involved with but so be it. 20s are not going to take a friendly anywhere near as seriously as a schools team.

Quin_Dub

Heymans wrote: »

If that's case how do you explain the Michael's SCT hockeying the Belvo U20's last season 56 -0. I doubt the standard at AIL level is as good as schools. Certainly there's not the commitment there from players as there would be in school training every day. Going on to play adult rugby is a hobby - playing schools is a vocation.

iminterestd0 wrote: »

Michaels SCT side had several future pros, Belvo 20s had none.

I'd also be fairly confident that the overwhelming majority of that Belvo U20's were "schools" players..which sort of defeats the point being made

If there were more than 1 or 2 "Club only" players on that Belvo side I'd be shocked..

shaungil

You could argue that club players that get to that level are almost a better bet because they haven't had the semi professional environment for 6 years and so their potential ability to improve is far higher as they enter the professional environment.

Heymans wrote: »

Whats Barrons and Kellehers throwing like?

Good enough, but room for improvement like most at their age.

shaungil wrote: »

You could argue that club players that get to that level are almost a better bet because they haven't had the semi professional environment for 6 years and so their potential ability to improve is far higher as they enter the professional environment.

The problem is they don't get to that level. They are noticeably below their peers from schools background. At least that's what the results say when the youths take on the schools teams.

Quin_Dub

Heymans wrote: »

The problem is they don't get to that level. They are noticeably below their peers from schools background. At least that's what the results say when the youths take on the schools teams.

Holistically , perhaps..

But when you talk about players that make it past U17/U18 Provincial squads and are making academies/sub academies etc. there is no difference.

It's "training mileage" for the want of a better term that's the difference..

You are correct , Schools players have more training hours on board than a club player of the same age - I'd strongly dispute that's it's "better" coaching , but it's definitely a lot more..

That's why the provinces bring Club players into the Cadet programs a year earlier than Schools players - to bridge that training hours delta..

But for those who make the cut for the academies 3/4 years later they are no different in skill level and development regardless of where they come from.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Holistically , perhaps..

But when you talk about players that make it past U17/U18 Provincial squads and are making academies/sub academies etc. there is no difference.

It's "training mileage" for the want of a better term that's the difference..

You are correct , Schools players have more training hours on board than a club player of the same age - I'd strongly dispute that's it's "better" coaching , but it's definitely a lot more..

That's why the provinces bring Club players into the Cadet programs a year earlier than Schools players - to bridge that training hours delta..

But for those who make the cut for the academies 3/4 years later they are no different in skill level and development regardless of where they come from.

there may be a difference in skill level, but that can very player to player as is the case with any player comparison.

Still not sure why people are engaging with this clear troll.

jmn51927

iminterestd0 wrote: »

Anyway...

Best halfbacks; Ben Murphy and David Fitzgibbon?

Question marks over Murphy’s defensive ability and game control. Adam McEvoy (St. Marys) started think all but 1 of the 19s interpros and was a solid force throughout. Has a great control element to his game.

jmn51927 wrote: »

Question marks over Murphy’s defensive ability and game control. Adam McEvoy (St. Marys) started think all but 1 of the 19s interpros and was a solid force throughout. Has a great control element to his game.

certainly an argument could be made for McEvoy.

Purist98

Will there be a schools thread?

Purist98 wrote: »

Will there be a schools thread?

Been asked a few times. No. Causes too much hassle

Potential Leinster U21 team

1. Michael Milne(U20/Roscrea/UCD)
2. Ronan Kelleher(U21/St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
3. Jack Aungier(U21/Suttonians RFC/Terenure)
4. Ryan Baird(U20/St. Michaels/DUFC)
5. Jack Dunne(U21/St. Michaels/DUFC)
6. Ronan Watter(U20/St. Marys/St. Marys)
7. Scott Penny(U20/St. Michaels/UCD)
8. Caelan Doris(U20/Blackrock/St. Marys)
9. Hugh O'Sullivan(U21/Belvedere/Clontarf)
10. Harry Byrne(U20/St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
11. Aaron O'Sullivan(U20/Exile/Lansdowne)
12. David Hawkshaw(U20/Belvedere/Clontarf)
13. Tommy O'Brien(U21/Blackrock/UCD)
14. Liam Turner(U20/Blackrock/DUFC)
15. Michael Silvester(U21/Clongowes/DUFC)

Potential Leinster U19 team

1. Sam Ilo(U18/Wesley)
2. Lee Barron(U18/St. Michaels)
3. Thomas Clarkson(U19/Blackrock/DUFC)
4. Alex Soroka(U18/Belvedere)
5. Brian Deeney(U19/Wexford RFC/Clontarf)
6. Anthony Ryan(U19/Clongowes/DUFC)
7. Will Hickey(U18/St. Michaels)
8. Ed Brennan(U19/Blackrock)
9. Ben Murphy(U18/Pres Bray)
10. Paddy McKenzie(U19/Wicklow/Old Wesley)
11. Tom Maher(U19/Blackrock/UCD)
12. Karl Martin(U17/Boyne RFC)
13. Chris Cosgrave(U18/St. Michaels)
14. Andrew Smith(U19/St. Michaels)
15. Sam Dardis(U19/Terenure/Terenure)

Leinster Schools League

SCT Results:
Castleknock College 60 V 0 St Andrews College
Newbridge College 24 V 13 Cistercian College Roscrea
Presentation College Bray 50 V 15 The Kings Hospital
Kilkenny College 36 V 14 CBC Monkstown
Wesley College 24 V 21 St Gerards School

JCT results:
Castleknock College 31 V 17 Temple Carrig
Cistercian College Roscrea 5 V 10 Newbridge College
The Kings Hospital 0 V 66 Presentation College Bray
CBC Monkstown 17 V 15 Kilkenny College
Gonzaga College 62 V 5 CUS
St Gerards School 7 V 12 Wesley College

Imhof Tank

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Been asked a few times. No. Causes too much hassle

Well now, is that your opinion, or has it been decreed by a mod?

Its the trolls and regulars engaging with them that leads to the trouble year on year, not the subject matter of schools rugby per se. The junior and senior leagues are up and running this week with round 1 scores on the leinster website. I'd like to keep up to date on who is going well etc as the cups approach, and there are certain posters on here who seem to know literally everything that moves not just on the schools scene but on all the age grades including youths, stuff you would never pick up anywhere else that I'm aware of. Would a restricted thread with access requests be a possibility?