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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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Murph_D

Have never followed a plan to the letter myself. The phrase ‘stick to the plan’ is a good one though, if advised to someone who doesn’t have a lot of experience or understanding of the various elements. If you don’t understand what you are doing (and many runners don’t), you probably ARE better off sticking (mainly) to the plan.

I am not a sub-3 runner, nor a realistic aspirant, but I’ve had good results with Hanson HM (modified with some racing) and subsequent curtailed M version (modified for HM recovery).

I asked the question about deviation because the runner concerned missed the goal and I wondered was there a clue there. Obviously if we are talking about a few extra easy/recovery miles here and there there’s no issue.

rooneyjm

Murph_D wrote: »

Have never followed a plan to the letter myself. The phrase ‘stick to the plan’ is a good one though, if advised to someone who doesn’t have a lot of experience or understanding of the various elements. If you don’t understand what you are doing (and many runners don’t), you probably ARE better off sticking (mainly) to the plan.

I am not a sub-3 runner, nor a realistic aspirant, but I’ve had good results with Hanson HM (modified with some racing) and subsequent curtailed M version (modified for HM recovery).

I asked the question about deviation because the runner concerned missed the goal and I wondered was there a clue there. Obviously if we are talking about a few extra easy/recovery miles here and there there’s no issue.

Pre plan I was running 70k with a bit of speed and MP work so rather than knock my mileage back to match the plan I just stayed steady until the plan ramped up. I do think 92k is a bit aggressive the week before a marathon so I knocked a few miles off the weekend. Seeing that we are on annoying running sayings, “there is no more fitness to be gained in the last 10 days to help your marathon only hinder it”, so I took it handy to be fully rested and refueled. I had to resist the chance to run into the Olympic stadium on the Saturday.

One thing that definitely didn’t help were the missed miles in week 12 as you are in the business end of the plan where the cumulative fatigue is key( according to the book anyway).

thomas anderson.

Dumping the plans was the best thing i ever did, got 2 sub 3's 4 weeks apart this year.

Murph_D

rooneyjm wrote: »

Pre plan I was running 70k with a bit of speed and MP work so rather than knock my mileage back to match the plan I just stayed steady until the plan ramped up. I do think 92k is a bit aggressive the week before a marathon so I knocked a few miles off the weekend. Seeing that we are on annoying running sayings, “there is no more fitness to be gained in the last 10 days to help your marathon only hinder it”, so I took it handy to be fully rested and refueled. I had to resist the chance to run into the Olympic stadium on the Saturday.

One thing that definitely didn’t help were the missed miles in week 12 as you are in the business end of the plan where the cumulative fatigue is key( according to the book anyway).

How did you find the SOS sessions, including the 3x 16m LRs?

and still ricky villa

Just on the sticking to the plan thing,
Personality plays a lot into it. My best results have come from keeping my gob shut and doing what I'm told.
My biggest blow ups have come from thinking I knew better and tinkering with a rigid plan.
There's a lot of middle ground between the two, granted, but setting a goal, deciding on the plan to get to that goal and making only microscopic adjustments has always worked best for me.

Try and tell me to do that outside running though and you're in for a row

sideswipe

thomas anderson. wrote: »

Dumping the plans was the best thing i ever did, got 2 sub 3's 4 weeks apart this year.

Can I ask what approach you took to training in the lead up to those races?

rooneyjm

Murph_D wrote: »

How did you find the SOS sessions, including the 3x 16m LRs?

Speed and strength sessions were ok, able to hit the paces and short enough to grind it out if I was feeling tired.
MP sessions were grand early on, didn’t try to do them faster than MP as advised, kept it @ 6.50. As the plan went on they got a bit tougher especially with the warm weather we had. When I followed the plan ie speed Tuesday, rest Wednesday, MP Thursday I found the MP sessions easier than when I had to move the week around and run the day before the MP session. Second last 10@MP I cut at 7 miles as I was really struggling after running 8 the day before and it was humid, HR was way to high.
14/16 milers were fine, some around 8 min pace and some a bit faster up to 7.30.
Are you training for 3 yourself?

Murph_D

"rooneyjm wrote:

Are you training for 3 yourself?

No - 3:20 is my current MP. Running NYC but will probably back off somewhat, haven’t got the full cycle in due to concentrating on track this summer. Jumping into second half of Hanson - so far so good, as base mileage was decent coming in. 16m last w/e at MP+ 40s went well.

thomas anderson.

sideswipe wrote: »

Can I ask what approach you took to training in the lead up to those races?

Did 5 core sessions every week ; hill repeats, v02, intervals, miles at MP and the long rung.

Made sure I was hitting 60-70 miles a week.

Threw in some pilates as well to strengthen the core

OOnegative

thomas anderson. wrote: »

Threw in some plates as well to strengthen the core

Plates of chips, pasta, spuds.....

Whatever your doing certainly is working, fair play.

healy1835

Many on here looking to go sub 3 or better for DCM? How's training going etc.....?

Peterx

It's all good, I think.
The last few weeks with the loooong Sunday run have been heavy enough but with the release of this week's training by the club coach I can see light at the end of the tunnel as the long run is 50 minutes shorter. Looks like we're about a week away from the start of....................................................................TAPER MADNESS :P

paul471966

healy1835 wrote: »

Many on here looking to go sub 3 or better for DCM? How's training going etc.....?

iv ideas about doing sub 3 .but I'm thinking it's just out of my reach.prob won't make up my mind in till the day.ðŸ˜

BlacknWhite86

I am also considering and hoping to attempt it, raced a 1/2 marathon just over 3 weeks ago with a time of 1:22.18 and have worked up my longer runs as far as 34k now at a decent steady pace, with one more long one to go this weekend before starting to taper...

What kind of pace are people using on there longer runs in training that are aiming for the sub 3 out of interest?

RayCun

I usually do the long runs at easy pace, with a section at marathon pace. A tempo run the day before so my legs are a bit tired at the start. Midweek medium long run is more of a steady pace.
Looking forward to it now...

AuldManKing

I'm very interested to see how this marathon training cycle ends up.

Previously I would have done about 6-7 20+ mile runs and some solid sessions (14-15m midweek).

This cycle with a new coach is an eye opener - I've just 1x20m done and 1 more to come - Both of those 20m runs will be with a lot of it at 'Steady Effort' e.g. last sunday was 7 Steady / 2E/ 6Steady/2E / 4 Steady - so 17 miles at 7-7.10/mile pace.

Weekly mileage is about 70 miles - so the volume is high enough and spread out over the week. I add on a couple of miles to the midweek sessions just to bring them up past 10m in an effort to make it look like I'm marathon training

.

I don't have that permanent fatigued state that I was in for previous marathon cycles and I actually quizzed my coach recently about this

But I'm feeling very confident due to the recent HM I done (a comfortable 1.24) and the good session last weekend on the 2nd half of the DCM route.

healy1835

BlacknWhite86 wrote: »

What kind of pace are people using on there longer runs in training that are aiming for the sub 3 out of interest?

This would be the first training block that I've pushed the LR. I went sub 3 in the Spring and the vast majority of my LR's would have been in the 5min/km range. This time about they've been steadier, progressive affairs, averaging out about 4:30/km with an emphasis on finishing strong. Mileage in or about 130k for the most part. Really looking forward to Dublin now.....

Itziger

healy1835 wrote: »

BlacknWhite86 wrote: »

What kind of pace are people using on there longer runs in training that are aiming for the sub 3 out of interest?

This would be the first training block that I've pushed the LR. I went sub 3 in the Spring and the vast majority of my LR's would have been in the 5min/km range. This time about they've been steadier, progressive affairs, averaging out about 4:30/km with an emphasis on finishing strong. Mileage in or about 130k for the most part. Really looking forward to Dublin now.....

You'll have to find yourself a new thread soon, fella. Sub 2.50.... 45........

healy1835

Itziger wrote: »

You'll have to find yourself a new thread soon, fella. Sub 2.50.... 45........

I'll decline to comment on that for the moment.........

Swashbuckler

Sub 2.50 and beyond I think the thread is called

squinn2912

My training has been different too. More miles I’m on 65-70 miles per week. Tonight’s session was 3x3miles at 6:20. Wound up doing 14 miles in all average pace was 6:59. I’m feeling pretty good so I hope to at least get a new pb, see how I am on the day

and still ricky villa

Looking for a bit of advice/common sense

I've been down with a cold since Friday, feeling grand now but still a little chesty. Knowing myself, it's the end of the cold.
Today's plan is 12 miles at MP. I'm tempted but don't want to make a balls of all the hard work already gone in.
I still have a good bit of time to Valencia so should I attempt this (no blame will be attached to anyone that says yes) or should I take it easy for the remainder of the week and look towards Sunday's LSR instead (no blame will be attached to anyone who says yes to this if I don't PB in December)

Training has been going great and I'd been looking forward to today's run, I even took a half day from work so would welcome anyone who can slap some sense into me

OOnegative

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice/common sense

I've been down with a cold since Friday, feeling grand now but still a little chesty. Knowing myself, it's the end of the cold.
Today's plan is 12 miles at MP. I'm tempted but don't want to make a balls of all the hard work already gone in.
I still have a good bit of time to Valencia so should I attempt this (no blame will be attached to anyone that says yes) or should I take it easy for the remainder of the week and look towards Sunday's LSR instead (no blame will be attached to anyone who says yes to this if I don't PB in December)

Training has been going great and I'd been looking forward to today's run, I even took a half day from work so would welcome anyone who can slap some sense into me

If it’s anything still lingering in the chest I would leave it to be honest. Recover fully & look to Sunday’s LSR is what I would do.

Peterx

I'm in a similar boat and instead of 30 minute tempo last night I wrote it off and went to bed as early as possible to get the rest in.
Zero miles done this week but you are going to get blips in any training cycle, especially approaching the end of the harder middle block of training.

I will go out for an easy run today and tomorrow and hope to be right for a 54 minute tempo on Friday and the long run Sunday.

You'll be grand!

squinn2912

When I’m borderline I usually go out at warm up pace and do a progression run. It’s usally difficult enough to tell me that I was right to leave the tempo.

and still ricky villa

I went cautious for 7 miles at an easy pace in the end. Glad to be back out at any pace

rocco

Hi Folks,

Its been a while since I posted on boards .. I have reading through this thread for the past few hours with great interest . I am contemplating going for a sub 3 run in DCM this year. I started running in 2016 completed two DCMs 1st in 3:28 second in 3:20 . Since the turn of the year my training went up a notch and has been allot more consistent (I also compete in triathlon) . I haven't raced a half Marathon this year but my 5km time is 18:30 and 10KM time is 37:50 which are massive improvements on my previous bests. I have been averaging about 55/60 miles per week during this training block with the usual mix of intervals, tempos, recoveries and LSRs. My long runs peaked last week at just under 22 miles and I ran easy at this at around 5min per km. The previous two were 20 and 21 miles, one was at an average pace of 4.21 per km with the last 7 at sub 3 hour pace felt very good. The other was an average of 4.25 per km with the middle 10 KM sub three pace at around 4.05 per km , I was working hard on this sectioned but settled in well for the rest of the run . For background my original plan was to go 3:15 my running mate and myself felt I maybe shooting a little low so it went to 3:10. I have been feeling really strong and positive in training and just think it might be worth a crack to go under the three hour mark. I know ultimately it cant be answered for me but I was just looking for some advise/opinion.

Thanks in advance!

RayCun

Sub 3 pace is about 4:14/km, so you seem well set, with a decent block of training behind you.

I would aim to run the first half a little slower, 1:30 to 1:31, and pick it up in the second half. That would mean letting the 3 hour pacers move away from you a bit in the first half, especially on the uphills, but reeling them in on the second half.

Duanington

rocco wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Its been a while since I posted on boards .. I have reading through this thread for the past few hours with great interest . I am contemplating going for a sub 3 run in DCM this year. I started running in 2016 completed two DCMs 1st in 3:28 second in 3:20 . Since the turn of the year my training went up a notch and has been allot more consistent (I also compete in triathlon) . I haven't raced a half Marathon this year but my 5km time is 18:30 and 10KM time is 37:50 which are massive improvements on my previous bests. I have been averaging about 55/60 miles per week during this training block with the usual mix of intervals, tempos, recoveries and LSRs. My long runs peaked last week at just under 22 miles and I ran easy at this at around 5min per km. The previous two were 20 and 21 miles, one was at an average pace of 4.21 per km with the last 7 at sub 3 hour pace felt very good. The other was an average of 4.25 per km with the middle 10 KM sub three pace at around 4.05 per km , I was working hard on this sectioned but settled in well for the rest of the run . For background my original plan was to go 3:15 my running mate and myself felt I maybe shooting a little low so it went to 3:10. I have been feeling really strong and positive in training and just think it might be worth a crack to go under the three hour mark. I know ultimately it cant be answered for me but I was just looking for some advise/opinion.

Thanks in advance!

When did you race the 10k? ( not that it means a huge amount when trying to calculate marathon times etc but it might give an indication of progress)

How have the long runs felt in general? The long run with the last 7 at sub 3 pace looks promising for sure - although sub 3 pace is closer to 4.15 per km no?

The numbers look very promising but its probably more important how you are feeling while running those long runs with MP in there.....

rocco

Duanington wrote: »

When did you race the 10k? ( not that it means a huge amount when trying to calculate marathon times etc but it might give an indication of progress)

How have the long runs felt in general? The long run with the last 7 at sub 3 pace looks promising for sure - although sub 3 pace is closer to 4.15 per km no?

The numbers look very promising but its probably more important how you are feeling while running those long runs with MP in there.....

I ran the Dunshaughlin 10k back in June , yes sub three pace would be 4.15 per km, as I said I dropped that to 4.05 per km for a middle section of one of the runs to see how I would feel running a slightly quicker sub 3 MP. I was working hard for this portion but it was up Chesterfield ofr a good 5KM on a blustery morning . I settled down to about 4.25km for the remainder of the run and was comfortable. On the other quick LR (20 miles )I ran a 1:30:36 half to put that into perspective my one and only HM in Dublin in 2016 was 1:33 .

I didn't feel to bad at all after these quicker long runs which is why I am toying with the idea of going all in!

Thanks for the feedback.