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Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

TheFitz13

Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

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Idbatterim

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What’s your point ?

It may nbe their way to stop a third competing terminal being built. The road network in the airport is a joke, multiple traffic lights. Terminal 2 already bursting at the seems. They couldn’t organize a piss up in a brewery. I think the spend and their plans should be questioned...

CoisFharraige

Will be very interesting to see what happens between now and when the infrastructure is built. Presumably traffic will continue to grow, so the situation could get very/more congested without any new or significant infrastructure coming on. At peak times it'll be quite a sight when we near the end of the completion with an extra few million to juggle per year somehow with the current taxiways and stands.

Gael23

Has construction started yet?

[Deleted User]

Gael23 wrote: »

Has construction started yet?

On the runway ? January onwards. Next month contractor will be announced and then work on the 10 left end will commence Q1.

Bussywussy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

On the runway ? January onwards. Next month contractor will be announced and then work on the 10 left end will commence Q1.

BAM I'll bet

Bsal

Could be Clare civil engineering, they have done a bit at Dublin before.

roadmaster

Clare would be way to small for it. I would say it will be a JV probably along the lines of Lagan/Sisk/roadbridge or Bam and there friends, serious amount of earthworks involved but u would imagine the electrical works would also be a big contract so you could see the likes of jones who are working on the tower involved in a JV. Either way who ever Gets it will provide good employment for two years

basill

I guess the p*ssing rain, snow and sleet will keep the dust down during construction.

EchoIndia

Construction is going to take many months so I don't think it will matter in the round when it starts. Dublin is far less wet than the west in any case.

Jamie2k9

Draft decision on summer 2019 capacity.

Couple of extra slots throughout the day, IAG and associates ST/WX against the passed by other airlines. Other changes:

* Terminal Hourly Capacity
- Departure limit raised form 3,700 to 4,130 (1&2)
- Arrival limit raised from 3550 to 3960 (1) and 3050 to 3,400

Scheduled LF will be based on 95% (up from 85%).

Details how OTP has slipped in 2018 but recovered in July/August the bussiest months with a big drop with ATC issues in late May/early June.

Working on the following to reduce taxi times:
A-COM
Reducing aircraft separation

https://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Summer%202019%20capacity/Draft%20decision_S19.pdf

Chris_5339762

They can barely manage departure rates as it stands IMO, near constant departures 30 minutes after pushback which is ludicrous. Increasing arrival limits too? I've been on more than one flight that lands and then announces "we have a 30 minute delay for a gate" which is also ludicrous.

[Deleted User]

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

They can barely manage departure rates as it stands IMO, near constant departures 30 minutes after pushback which is ludicrous. Increasing arrival limits too? I've been on more than one flight that lands and then announces "we have a 30 minute delay for a gate" which is also ludicrous.

Gatwick, which is often held on here and elsewhere as the gold standard for single runway operations, has significantly worse taxi times than Dublin. A recent report had Gatwick in the top spot for taxi out times and was in the top 5 for taxi in times. Dublin was NOT in the top ten on either list.

billie1b

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

They can barely manage departure rates as it stands IMO, near constant departures 30 minutes after pushback which is ludicrous. Increasing arrival limits too? I've been on more than one flight that lands and then announces "we have a 30 minute delay for a gate" which is also ludicrous.

DUB ATC is getting beyond a joke now, there’s certain controllers not able for the peak hours traffic, causes chaos, a lot of flights yesterday with 40 minute taxi times and a lot of queing to push as they were only letting 5 into the holding point at once, utter madness

basill

Erm ahh, break break. You hear the pressure coming through in their voices all the time as they are on the edge of losing it. Aircraft being instructed to go around a few miles out due to a "notional" loss of separation whereas at any major airport it is not uncommon to be cleared to land at 500ft. Lack of conditional line up clearances. Knee jerk closures of taxiways due to a certain carrier having trouble with wingtips. 250kt descent from a 100nm out is the new standard even when London has streamed the arriving traffic. The list goes on but falls on deaf ears.

The gold standard is LHR closely followed by LGW. These guys aren't even in the same league. In fact they are playing a different sport altogether.

Locker10a

basill wrote: »

Erm ahh, break break. You hear the pressure coming through in their voices all the time as they are on the edge of losing it. Aircraft being instructed to go around a few miles out due to a "notional" loss of separation whereas at any major airport it is not uncommon to be cleared to land at 500ft. Lack of conditional line up clearances. Knee jerk closures of taxiways due to a certain carrier having trouble with wingtips. 250kt descent from a 100nm out is the new standard even when London has streamed the arriving traffic. The list goes on but falls on deaf ears.

The gold standard is LHR closely followed by LGW. These guys aren't even in the same league. In fact they are playing a different sport altogether.

Absolutely agree, never like to dis my own but the IAA need a shake up big time. LHR and LGW are really impressive and they could really learn a thing or two from them. But they won’t.
Yes taxi time can be bad at LGW but have you seen the amount of traffic they move and the rate at which they do it, kudos to them .

Chris_5339762

Gatwick doesn't have the bottleneck around the south side of T2 either, which causes chaos and is really difficult to solve.

Irish Steve

While I'm no fan of the IAA's ATC management, it's a little unfair to compare Heathrow with Dublin at the moment, in that Heathrow is a dual runway operation, and more significantly, does not have the variety of aircraft sizes that are in use at Dublin, it's been a very long time now since things like ATR's and the like were part of their mix, so they don't get the problems with separation that happen at Dublin. Another huge advantage they have at Heathrow is their "land after" system, which could in theory be applied at Dublin when there's no depature in between.

Yes, Dublin need to up their game some, and DAA also have to share some of the blame for very poor design decisions in relation to the layout of stands and access routes.

I would like to hope that IAA will indeed up their game when the second runway comes into use, it will certainly make operations simpler in terms of the way the slots are allocated, and should make it easier to get the throughput that is needed.

There is another problem to be addressed in relation to the close proximity of the UK air space boundary, if London impose flow control restrictions, that immediately makes problems for Dublin to dispatch at the speed they could acheive.

Bsal

Irish Steve wrote: »

While I'm no fan of the IAA's ATC management, it's a little unfair to compare Heathrow with Dublin at the moment, in that Heathrow is a dual runway operation, and more significantly, does not have the variety of aircraft sizes that are in use at Dublin, it's been a very long time now since things like ATR's and the like were part of their mix, so they don't get the problems with separation that happen at Dublin. Another huge advantage they have at Heathrow is their "land after" system, which could in theory be applied at Dublin when there's no depature in between.

Yes, Dublin need to up their game some, and DAA also have to share some of the blame for very poor design decisions in relation to the layout of stands and access routes.

I would like to hope that IAA will indeed up their game when the second runway comes into use, it will certainly make operations simpler in terms of the way the slots are allocated, and should make it easier to get the throughput that is needed.

There is another problem to be addressed in relation to the close proximity of the UK air space boundary, if London impose flow control restrictions, that immediately makes problems for Dublin to dispatch at the speed they could acheive.

Flybe have been operating Dash 8's at Heathrow for a while now so they have a good mix there too and doesn't cause any problems.

Locker10a

Bsal wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

While I'm no fan of the IAA's ATC management, it's a little unfair to compare Heathrow with Dublin at the moment, in that Heathrow is a dual runway operation, and more significantly, does not have the variety of aircraft sizes that are in use at Dublin, it's been a very long time now since things like ATR's and the like were part of their mix, so they don't get the problems with separation that happen at Dublin. Another huge advantage they have at Heathrow is their "land after" system, which could in theory be applied at Dublin when there's no depature in between.

Yes, Dublin need to up their game some, and DAA also have to share some of the blame for very poor design decisions in relation to the layout of stands and access routes.

I would like to hope that IAA will indeed up their game when the second runway comes into use, it will certainly make operations simpler in terms of the way the slots are allocated, and should make it easier to get the throughput that is needed.

There is another problem to be addressed in relation to the close proximity of the UK air space boundary, if London impose flow control restrictions, that immediately makes problems for Dublin to dispatch at the speed they could acheive.

Flybe have been operating Dash 8's at Heathrow for a while now so they have a good mix there too and doesn't cause any problems.

Yeah, I’m sorry to say, I’ve close personal relationships with some people involved in ATC and in particular NATS in the U.K. and the Irish approach to ATC appears to be inefficient and seems to leave a lot of room for improvements that would benefit all parties

Idbatterim

The amount of times in sitting on a plane in Dublin waiting to take off. airport, one lands, one takes off, one lands, one takes off. The amount of time between each action seems a joke, you can see the spacing between the planes, both visually and time wise and it seems excessive ...

CoisFharraige

Locker10a wrote: »

Yeah, I’m sorry to say, I’ve close personal relationships with some people involved in ATC and in particular NATS in the U.K. and the Irish approach to ATC appears to be inefficient and seems to leave a lot of room for improvements that would benefit all parties

The procedures employed in a Dublin may have suited it a decade ago, but not now.

Heathrow and Gatwick issue ‘land after’ clearances to arriving aircraft during daylight hours. The criteria are easily met by Dublin’s operations.

Line up after clearances are still non-existent. This stems from a recommendation made in a report by the AAIU about a Turkish 738 which made a runway incursion. As a result Dublin doesn’t use them.

Instead what Dublin has is controllers (some extremely notably better than others) literally shouting a takeoff clearance down the frequency, whilst they twiddle their thumbs wondering if the arrival is too close or not. Some will then panic and issue a go around instruction, AND abort the departure - in Gatwick land after clearances make this problem non-existent for controllers. This is the biggest stress faced by TWR controllers in Dublin.

Ground on the other hand is just a mess in general when busy due to taxiway layouts. Dublin is unlucky in this sense. However, Dublin and Gatwick both have one runway, with similar sized aircraft, yet Gatwick does it better (in terms of runway movements) - simple as.

It’s no fun for anybody - pilots on the approach reading back landing clearances with the “50” callout in the background, pilots anxiously wondering if they’re next to go at the hold and cleared for an “IMMEDIATE!!!” line up by ATC. Bit of a mess all in all - they have the systems, but the procedures just don’t work, and I have no idea why they don’t change them to make it a little less of a problem for everyone involved.

Let me add to that - time based separation that we see in Heathrow would also help Dublin with the winds we often have, but no sign of that. NATS are so far ahead of the IAA in terms of innovation it’s ridiculous. Instead we get these useless reports from the CAR saying that we are upping movements by +1 per hour with no change

Shedite27

CoisFharraige wrote: »

The procedures employed in a Dublin may have suited it a decade ago, but not now.

Heathrow and Gatwick issue ‘land after’ clearances to arriving aircraft during daylight hours. The criteria are easily met by Dublin’s operations.

What's this to us lay people?

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Instead what Dublin has is controllers (some extremely notably better than others) literally shouting a takeoff clearance down the frequency, whilst they twiddle their thumbs wondering if the arrival is too close or not. Some will then panic and issue a go around instruction, AND abort the departure - in Gatwick land after clearances make this problem non-existent for controllers. This is the biggest stress faced by TWR controllers in Dublin.

Do they issue stats on the number of go arounds? Is Dublin really that bad? I live close to the airport and while not a planespotter, have never seen a go-around. Are we talking on a day?

jamo2oo9

Shedite27 wrote: »

What's this to us lay people?

Do they issue stats on the number of go arounds? Is Dublin really that bad? I live close to the airport and while not a planespotter, have never seen a go-around. Are we talking on a day?

Land after is where the departing aircraft would be instructed to line up the runway after the landing aircraft on final. Once the aircraft on final lands down on the runway, the departing aircraft would line up immediately and await for take off clearance.

[Deleted User]

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Land after is where the departing aircraft would be instructed to line up the runway after the landing aircraft on final. Once the aircraft on final lands down on the runway, the departing aircraft would line up immediately and await for take off clearance.

That’s incorrect.

trellheim

'Land after' is clearance for a second airplane to land before the plane on the runway that has just landed, has exited the runway, as far as I know ?

goingnowhere

Its a landing clearance, if visual with the aircraft in front, land and maintain separation, so only land if the guy ahead has cleared the runway or is so far down the runway that you are assured you can stop before him.
"Land after the company 737"

The conditional line up
"After the landing xxx, Enter 28 at E1, line up and wait"

Phen2206

goingnowhere wrote: »

"After the landing xxx, Enter 28 at E1, line up and wait"

Indeed at LGW you get these all time. Not so much at LHR as one runway is for departures and one for arrivals, usually.

So at LGW you'll hear something like this:

"Easy 123, behind the landing Airbus A319, via M1 line up runway 26L behind"

and the pilot on radio would respond "behind the landing Airbus A319, via M1 line up runway 26L behind, Easy 123".

Someone said the red stop bar system at DUB prevents such conditional line up clearances because it automatically comes back on 45 seconds (?) or so after it is turned off, thus I gather its too easy for the stop bar to come back on while someone is lining up and then alarms start going off. I'd have thought from a technological point of view this should be an easy enough issue to fix but I imagine there are all sorts of IAA issues preventing this.

LHR recently started using stop bars at the line up points again but it doesn't interfere with conditional clearances, I think because the controllers have much more control over them unlike DUB.

CoisFharraige

You can hear a land after clearance at Gatwick in this video from back in the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-sfIPS2Jqk

The arrival gets so close to the runway (or the controller predicts that they will be very close at an early stage and anticipates it) that they issue the land after clearance as the departure is on the runway.

Phen2206 wrote: »

Indeed at LGW you get these all time. Not so much at LHR as one runway is for departures and one for arrivals, usually.

So at LGW you'll hear something like this:

"Easy 123, behind the landing Airbus A319, via M1 line up runway 26L behind"

These are used in essentially every country in the world with any level of movements on a single runway except for Ireland.

Phen2206 wrote: »

Someone said the red stop bar system at DUB prevents such conditional line up clearances because it automatically comes back on 45 seconds (?) or so after it is turned off, thus I gather its too easy for the stop bar to come back on while someone is lining up and then alarms start going off. I'd have thought from a technological point of view this should be an easy enough issue to fix but I imagine there are all sorts of IAA issues preventing this.

LHR recently started using stop bars at the line up points again but it doesn't interfere with conditional clearances, I think because the controllers have much more control over them unlike DUB.

Dublin's stopbar system is one which is standard and to ICAO regs, so it's a simple push of the button - no difference to LHR's. The stopbar does come on again relatively quickly (60 seconds is ICAO recommendation) and when you get a long aircraft (EK 773 comes to mind) the RIMCAS alert goes off in the tower. You can hear it in the transmissions sometimes ''RUNWAY, RUNWAY, RUNWAY'' and an alarm with it.

LHR also has a timer, so I'm not sure why this would affect Dublin specifically. The stopbar must be manually switched off by all ATCOs in every tower position only once the landing aircraft passes, regardless of airport and systems.

[Deleted User]

“3) a succeeding landing aircraft may cross the runway threshold when a preceding Category 3 aircraft:
i) has landed and has passed a point at least 2 400 m from the threshold of the runway, is in motion and will vacate the runway without backtracking; or
ii) is airborne and has passed a point at least 2 400 m from the threshold of the runway”

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Publications/ICAO-Doc-4444-EN.pdf Page 110 for reference.

Runway 28 is 2637 so you can’t apply the landing bit to Dublin unless aircraft vacate at B7 which they don’t. The difference between standard separation which is runway length and land after departing is 237m, hardly worth crying over is it.

[Deleted User]

You hear it at Heathrow when aircraft (heavies) are slow rolling to N6 and A10E which are about 2300m from the threshold or at gatwick when aircraft vacate FR which is 2400m from the threshold. The U.K. rule was amended to 2000m to facilitate this.

E6 is only 1850m from the threshold so wouldn’t even meet the U.K. criteria.