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Caesaerian section effect on new born

Sassygirl1999

There has been postulations that Caesaerian sections can have a devastating effect on a new born infants microbiome, does it worth?

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Sassygirl1999

eviltwin wrote: »

The average Irish woman isn't a Victoria or Britney. We don't get to pick and choose our healthcare like that. Yes our rates are high but it's due to the way birth has become almost like a production line rather than treated holistically as it should. It's not because women are demanding sections.

so they are harangued into c sections

Whispered

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

so they are harangued into c sections

Not really. Interventions such as sweeps bringing in labour, breaking waters in early labour, makes it more likely that a section will be needed.
Women are/were (apparently it's to change) routinely pressured into accepting these interventions. I refused a sweep and the doctor was quite annoyed about it, shockingly so. It's on my file that I "refused medical advice". Which in my view is a disgrace.

eviltwin

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

so they are harangued into c sections

I wouldn't say that. I think our maternity system is at breaking point with staff desperatly trying to manage everyone safely and because of the nature of birth sometimes a section might seem the better option. We've also had the 8th Amendment in place up until recently which no doubt had an impact on clinical decisions.

Under His Eye

Lazy doctors wanting a quick result?

[Deleted User]

eviltwin wrote: »

birth has become almost like a production line rather than treated holistically as it should. It's not because women are demanding sections.

I agree, and it varies hugely depending on where a woman is lucky (or unlucky) enough to give birth. Some hospitals have twice the rate of caesarians as others, and it isn't because they're specialist centres for difficult births. It seems to be at the whim of the obstetrician.

Induction rates and episiotomies are also very high in Ireland, and again it varies depending on who your obstetrician is, or where you give birth.

This isn't all in the imagination of women. The statistics are there for all to see, and the State has been criticised by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (Cedaw)

http://docstore.ohchr.org/SelfServices/FilesHandler.ashx?enc=6QkG1d%2fPPRiCAqhKb7yhsgA84bcFRy75ulvS2cmS%2f%2bil2Olic4vOOol%2b%2fJdEApK4Y1bDvfs5hiCDBBEjK%2fEX3%2bio9SY4WyO2qG7JijYBEmLaDNBkAtODampBJJZhUgVH%2fsStH8n1EM2GaPB3Iu%2bPRA%3d%3d

The Committee is concerned at some reports that child delivery is highly medicalized and dependent on the use of artificial methods to accelerate the process such that women are made to deliver babies within 8 hours of hospitalization, owing to a lack of resources in hospitals.

45. The Committee recommends that the State party ensure that women can have access to maternity and delivery services without time pressure or being exposed to artificial methods of accelerating births, and provide information in the next periodic report on the strategic plan aimed at launching a widely supported maternity health-care policy and programme respecting the birth process.

Melodeon

It's vitally important that babies are extracted the way nature intended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7Xne4f2Tg

Teyla Emmagan

eviltwin wrote:

Yes our rates are high but it's due to the way birth has become almost like a production line rather than treated holistically as it should. It's not because women are demanding sections.

In fact women are not demanding sections. They just aren't given a choice. They are given one at the drop of a hat. Because the hospitals don't want to take any risks because they don't want to be sued. But it means women lose all control over their own birth experience.

My cousin has cerebral palsy because she got stuck in the birth canal. If my aunt had been given a section then she would have been able to lead a 'normal' life. One without wheelchairs and physio and speech therapy. But there has to be a balance. Birth is a natural process but in Ireland it is far too 'medicalised'. A section is major surgery, and if you have one then you will have to have another one the next time. Our levels of intervention are just far too high. It is ridiculous, we should be waiting more to let nature take its course.

But it doesn't seem to harm the baby at least, even though they are not exposed to the bacteria in the birth canal there doesn't seem to be long term implications. Which again means there isn't a deterrent to performing what in other countries would be seen as unnecessary surgery.

Malayalam

Whispered wrote: »

Not really. Interventions such as sweeps bringing in labour, breaking waters in early labour, makes it more likely that a section will be needed.
Women are/were (apparently it's to change) routinely pressured into accepting these interventions. I refused a sweep and the doctor was quite annoyed about it, shockingly so. It's on my file that I "refused medical advice". Which in my view is a disgrace.

Had never thought about those factors when considering why we have such a high rate of caesarian. Interesting.
Looking back I had a sweep on the first - had no clue what was happening to be honest as I was young and wasn't even told what was happening - and thinking about it now it's a terrible thing to routinely do. Of course it causes problems. Didn't have caesarian but had a high forceps delivery which now I think about it must have been due to the sweep and aggressive time management in the ward. Ugh.

Yeah, I also got the ''refused medical advice'' tag on my record when I would not be induced on one of mine and opted for us to go 3 weeks overdue. I was told ''you are off my books now.'' Meh. Whatever. Feckers. There are fantastic people in maternity wards, I fell in love with my midwives, but there are also some horrible unnecessary crap things about the way birth is done here and it feels particularly poignant when something is ''off'' in such a powerful scenario.

In keeping with the spirit of the thread - What blue saves east? Thick aboudit forever mice.

LirW

I'm glad nobody gives in to the obvious mom-shaming the OP wants to do here with the "but people choose C-Sections, so they risk their pinky fingers of their newborn".

Yes of course the rates of sections are high, it's no surprise with how dysfunctional the maternity system is. Some hospitals have you on the clock from the moment you enter their premises, everyone is overworked, every ward is understaffed and there's nothing anyone can do.

Before OP is so quick to judge about how easy Sections are, did you have one? Do you know how this is definitely not the easy way out? You can't lift your child yourself for a few days, you have to run around with a pee bag for at least a day, you have to take some strong painkillers to cope with the strong pain afterwards (they sliced your tummy open, you can't drive for 6 weeks, it's not a particularly gravy experience.

Sassygirl1999

LirW wrote: »

I'm glad nobody gives in to the obvious mom-shaming the OP wants to do here with the "but people choose C-Sections, so they risk their pinky fingers of their newborn".

Yes of course the rates of sections are high, it's no surprise with how dysfunctional the maternity system is. Some hospitals have you on the clock from the moment you enter their premises, everyone is overworked, every ward is understaffed and there's nothing anyone can do.

Before OP is so quick to judge about how easy Sections are, did you have one? Do you know how this is definitely not the easy way out? You can't lift your child yourself for a few days, you have to run around with a pee bag for at least a day, you have to take some strong painkillers to cope with the strong pain afterwards (they sliced your tummy open, you can't drive for 6 weeks, it's not a particularly gravy experience.

you are in vogue
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/lets-not-start-the-parent-shaming-already-hes-eight-days-old-vogue-williams-hits-back-at-critics-after-photoshoot-one-week-after-birth-37315657.html

LirW

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

you are in vogue
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/lets-not-start-the-parent-shaming-already-hes-eight-days-old-vogue-williams-hits-back-at-critics-after-photoshoot-one-week-after-birth-37315657.html

Yeah, why do women feel the need to put others down for something that doesn't remotely affect them?

Sassygirl1999

LirW wrote: »

Yeah, why do women feel the need to put others down for something that doesn't remotely affect them?

why do some women need to feel victimized during all rational discussions?

eviltwin

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

why do some women need to feel victimized during all rational discussions?

Its not a rational discussion when the focus is on the patient, the person who doesn't get to call the shots. Until recently pregnant women didn't even have the right to object to medical treatment. You want a rational discussion then frame it round the management of labour which goes against best practice.

Sassygirl1999

eviltwin wrote: »

Its not a rational discussion when the focus is on the patient, the person who doesn't get to call the shots. Until recently pregnant women didn't even have the right to object to medical treatment. You want a rational discussion then frame it round the management of labour which goes against best practice.

you just have, the scope has widened...

LirW

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

you just have, the scope has widened...

Just because women have a say now for a few weeks it's not going to shatter a system that's in place for decades.

Also if a woman opts for a C-section, it's none of anyone's business, isn't it?

With my second I had a really troublesome pregnancy and at the end the baby didn't turn. All the usual didn't help and I was given the choice of trying to turn the baby from the outside, which is 50% successful and can have some pretty nasty complications or a C-section. Given the difficulty of this pregnancy I decided to go for the C-section and got a date for it. Then I went into labour over a week before and was on the table in the theatre just a few hours later and had the baby safely delivered, she was completely twisted in there.

How exactly imagine that to be? If you have a healthy pregnancy you don't just go in to the consultant and tell them a C-section would suit you more, they tell you exactly what your options are and why it would make more sense trying it naturally.
We're not celebrities that have so much money that they could literally buy the world, for us mortal women the normal rules apply.

So what exactly is your point, what do you wanna talk about? That there are health implications when children are born via Section? It was mentioned before, yes, it might not be as beneficial as a natural birth but then rather a healthy section baby than a birth injury or a dead baby.

[Deleted User]

Whispered wrote: »

Not really. Interventions such as sweeps bringing in labour, breaking waters in early labour, makes it more likely that a section will be needed.
Women are/were (apparently it's to change) routinely pressured into accepting these interventions. I refused a sweep and the doctor was quite annoyed about it, shockingly so. It's on my file that I "refused medical advice". Which in my view is a disgrace.

That is shocking

Sassygirl1999

LirW wrote: »

Just because women have a say now for a few weeks it's not going to shatter a system that's in place for decades.

Also if a woman opts for a C-section, it's none of anyone's business, isn't it?

With my second I had a really troublesome pregnancy and at the end the baby didn't turn. All the usual didn't help and I was given the choice of trying to turn the baby from the outside, which is 50% successful and can have some pretty nasty complications or a C-section. Given the difficulty of this pregnancy I decided to go for the C-section and got a date for it. Then I went into labour over a week before and was on the table in the theatre just a few hours later and had the baby safely delivered, she was completely twisted in there.

How exactly imagine that to be? If you have a healthy pregnancy you don't just go in to the consultant and tell them a C-section would suit you more, they tell you exactly what your options are and why it would make more sense trying it naturally.
We're not celebrities that have so much money that they could literally buy the world, for us mortal women the normal rules apply.

So what exactly is your point, what do you wanna talk about? That there are health implications when children are born via Section? It was mentioned before, yes, it might not be as beneficial as a natural birth but then rather a healthy section baby than a birth injury or a dead baby.

yes exactly its so we can discuss the implications of c section rationally

LirW

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

yes exactly its so we can discuss the implications of c section rationally

Can we talk about your one sentence replies that make a discussion next to impossible because they make no real sense as responses?
You wanna discuss the effect of a C-section rationally?
What part of it? That children are delivered safely?
I really don't get what exactly you want to discuss.

Sassygirl1999

LirW wrote: »

Can we talk about your one sentence replies that make a discussion next to impossible because they make no real sense as responses?
You wanna discuss the effect of a C-section rationally?
What part of it? That children are delivered safely?
I really don't get what exactly you want to discuss.

we are discussing, thanks for your participation

Whispered

bluewolf wrote: »

That is shocking

Also, I had to press him to find out exactly what he was doing. It was my due date and I had a routine appointment. He listened for heartbeat, asked some questions and said everything looked good. Then told me to get on the table for "an examination"

"What type of examination?"
"A routine examination"
"What type?"
"An internal"
"A sweep?"
"Yes"
"Why?"
"It's routine"
"But you said everything was ok, doesn't a sweep usually bring on labour?"
"Not necessarily"
"I'd rather not"
"It's routine"
"If everything is ok and baby is healthy and happy, I'd rather not"
"Today is your due date"
"Yes but we're in no rush, no thank you"
"It's routine"
"No. Thank. You"
I sat back down and was asked if I realised that I was actively refusing medical assistance and it would be on my file that I wouldn't take medical advice. It was only after I learned that in some cases, if at any stage social services are involved with the family, this information is given to them.

Not only that but during labour my waters were broken without my permission. A cursory "I'm going to do this now.....done" by the midwife.

Mountainsandh

I have two children, both C-section born.

The first was as a result of complete mismanagement, incompetence, the way I was treated.

Everything went : failed induction with various procedures without explanation or communication (example : a sweep with no explanation whatsoever, just "lie down there we need to do something"), treated like cattle, until I said "stop !" and was let home. Only then labour came.

Bewildered, anxious and defensive after days of prodding, I was sent for a scan hours before birth was due, and the operator failed to spot my baby was occipito posterior that afternoon. A long night of labour later, as my baby was showing signs of distress and the midwives had figured she was OP, I was sent for an emergency C-section.

Of course after all the prodding, procedures, full labour, and emergency C-s, I was much more likely to get an infection, and I did. Back into gynae ward, 2 week old baby had to be minded by Granny as father was away.
I had the famous "Infection" with a big I, the one they don't need to tell you anymore about, they don't need to name or identify, since you're too thick to understand.
Then some two or three weeks later I had an infection at the scar. I called into the gynae ward again, and the consultant glanced at the scar and told me it was just an ugly scar and I'd have to have cosmetic surgery if I wanted to remedy that. I did insist that I felt it was an infection but what the hell do I know right ? Anyway, my GP later on the same afternoon disagreed with the consultant and was completely bemused when he had to drain and clean the scar wound in his surgery, and put me on antibiotics.

When baby #2 was due, I was still anxious, traumatised, and angry from the previous birth experience.

I DEMANDED a C-section, and I'm not ashamed to own it.

I asked for statistics on Vbac for my hospital (small, regional hospital), with that hospital's obstetricians (I was aware by then of records of court cases for cerebral palsy babies), in that hospital's premises (hygiene for example may be a local hospital issue)(later damning inspection report confirmed these doubts were well founded).
I asked for success rate, and how success was defined.
I wanted to know what rate of Vbacs in my hospital, in those conditions with that staff, would result in emergency C-sections, and of course what the rate of success was.

I didn't demand the C-section right off the bat, I explained that I had been shaken by the series of events first time around, and that it would take some reassuring for me to attempt a Vbac.

The obstetrician could not deliver on that reassurance. I was fed statistics for the Uk, the US, and one vague national statistic that I had to source myself on the side. (in 2007, not sure if said statistics are now available, classified by hospitals, and with details)

Eventually at the final visit, the obstetrician fired my paper file at a locum doctor in the corridor in my presence, and told him I was his problem from now on.

He (locum) kindly booked me in for an elective C-section that went swimmingly, with no infection, and a much more enjoyable first few weeks with my newborn baby.

Sorry I do tend to go on, as I am still angry and bitter with the Irish medical community.

To remedy the potential lack of microbiome, some people have tried the practice of seeding after C-section. It is not recommended, and the benefits are not supported by evidence.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/expert-answers/vaginal-seeding/faq-20380881

the long-term benefits of vaginal seeding are unclear. In addition, there's concern that vaginal infections, such as group B streptococcus, herpes, chlamydia and gonorrhea, could be passed from mother to baby. Further research is needed.

In the meantime, if you want to promote your baby's gut health, consider breast-feeding. Bacteria present in breast milk and on the skin around the nipple have been shown to contribute to the seeding of the infant gut.

Malayalam

Whispered wrote: »

Also, I had to press him to find out exactly what he was doing. It was my due date and I had a routine appointment. He listened for heartbeat, asked some questions and said everything looked good. Then told me to get on the table for "an examination"

...........

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I have two children, both C-section born.

The first was as a result of complete mismanagement, incompetence, the way I was treated.

.....

When women share their birth stories as we do sometimes with each other I am often reminded of the quote from a poem by Muriel Rukeyser -

''What would happen if one woman told the truth about
her life?
The world would split open.''

I remember an elderly male gynaecologist slapping hard at my thighs, trying to get me to open my legs when I did not want an internal at that moment. I just wanted to be in labour peacefully. I remember him decades later though I am positive he forgot me within seconds of stomping out.

Ach, I suppose we have to somehow let go of some memories.

Mountainsandh

Malayalam wrote: »

When women share their birth stories as we do sometimes with each other I am often reminded of the quote from a poem by Muriel Rukeyser -

''What would happen if one woman told the truth about
her life?
The world would split open.''

I remember an elderly male gynaecologist slapping hard at my thighs, trying to get me to open my legs when I did not want an internal at that moment. I just wanted to be in labour peacefully. I remember him decades later though I am positive he forgot me within seconds of stomping out.

Ach, I suppose we have to somehow let go of some memories.

Yes, it's hard to let go though isn't it ?

My first obstetrician (now retired) was a "famous" enough man. During my pregnancy, several women friends, older than me, told me stories of how that hero "saved their baby" when the birth situation got complicated.

Thing is, they were completely uninformed as to what exactly went wrong before he "saved" them. Something went wrong, and he did something that saved the baby and them, that's really the gist of it. That the difficulties could have been caused by him did not cross their minds of course, he had such a good reputation.

The same man had at least 3 court cases (that I could find articles in the papers for) against him for negligence leading to cerebral palsy. The children were awarded millions so they could live a better life in spite of his mistakes.

LirW

I've just discovered my Sansevieria is pregnant with a hidden baby. I have to get my cutter out to surgically separate it. Otherwise it dies. I'm a good plant mammy.
I hope it won't have a weakened immune system after it.

Sassygirl1999

LirW wrote: »

I've just discovered my Sansevieria is pregnant with a hidden baby. I have to get my cutter out to surgically separate it. Otherwise it dies. I'm a good plant mammy.
I hope it won't have a weakened immune system after it.

crass

Sassygirl1999

LirW wrote: »

I've just discovered my Sansevieria is pregnant with a hidden baby. I have to get my cutter out to surgically separate it. Otherwise it dies. I'm a good plant mammy.
I hope it won't have a weakened immune system after it.

Annasopra

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

we are discussing, thanks for your participation

Gibber. Ration. No. This I agree. Woth 5.

Great discussion.

Annasopra

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

.

Yes. Super contribution.

wexie

I think I accidentally the whole thread

Capt'n Midnight

bluewolf wrote: »

What is the stars

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.