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The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

Long time lurker but first time poster here.As the title suggests. A thread for anyone trying to break 4hrs in the Marathon.
I've had two rather unsuccessful Marathons already. Dublin 2014 and Dublin 2016.
I had no business running Dublin 2014 as I'd only finished couch to 5k at the start of that year after never running before. I got roped into it by a charity that I'm involved in and felt I couldn't say no, but I really wasn't ready for it.
I struggled around in just under 5hrs and didn't enjoy any of it.
2016 was a bit better and I was better prepared and my main goal was to enjoy it. I hadn't much of a base going into Marathon training but I did all the training and came home in 4:25 but more importantly for me anyway was I enjoyed the whole experience from start to finish.
I decided there and then at the finish line though that I wasn't going to do or train for another Marathon until I had a decent base behind me. The next Marathon I did I wanted to give it a proper go.
Since the end of Dublin 2016 I've kept a consistent enough milage of between 25-30miles a week. With various tempo runs and intervals thrown in and a long run when I can.
I haven't done any races since apart from park runs( which I know aren't races) but as a measure of progress my 5km time has dropped from 26 minutes and a bit down to 22:04.
My aim is obviously to go sub 4 in the Dublin Marathon this October.
I haven't decided on a training plan yet but have been reading Hanson's Marathon method book recently.
I realise I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but with being almost 40, and alot of my time taken up with being self employed and having 3 kids under the age of 6 I feel a sub 4hr would be a good achievement for me personally.
Would be interested in hearing from anyone else hoping to go Sub 4hr for the first time also.
Doesn't have to be just the Dublin Marathon either.
Thanks.

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RayCun

Very busy around the pace groups alright, especially the four hour gang.

tHE vAGGABOND

Interested to see how things go in the half next week myself. I am feeling that Marathon pace is too "hard". I did 4 miles at between half and marathon pace yesterday [with 3 miles slow before and after] - but was going pretty hard to meet that pace. But will "mini-taper" a bit next week and keep it quite light and go with 1.50 pacers guts out there and see how we do.

I have done 9 or 10 marathons [two of them as a DCM pacer a good few years ago!!] and in a pile of them I have finished miserable, having gone for a stretch goal and really suffered in the end. Chicago [erm..2014], went for 3.30 after losing 2 or 3 of the last few weeks *totally* with rib injury - at 16 miles I was totally empty and came in over 4 hours, where I am sure I could have done 3.45-3.50 & enjoyed it more having taken it easy.

So the thing I want the half to tell me is if I can really think about 4 hours - or if I just go with 4.30 gang or something [since I am doing this for enjoyment and my own mental health tbh - my days of thinking about good for age times are WELL behind me

RedRunner

I have officially withdrawn from DCM 2018 ( ie I have said it out loud and put it in my boards training log:)) due to injury. so no sub 4 attempt for me but just wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their endeavours. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how y'all get on.

ewc78

RedRunner wrote: »

I have officially withdrawn from DCM 2018 ( ie I have said it out loud and put it in my boards training log:)) due to injury. so no sub 4 attempt for me but just wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their endeavours. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how y'all get on.

That's a pity.

coogy

RedRunner wrote: »

I have officially withdrawn from DCM 2018 ( ie I have said it out loud and put it in my boards training log:)) due to injury. so no sub 4 attempt for me but just wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their endeavours. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how y'all get on.

Argh, that sucks!

Best of luck in your recovery!

Hedgehoggy

RedRunner wrote: »

I have officially withdrawn from DCM 2018 ( ie I have said it out loud and put it in my boards training log:)) due to injury. so no sub 4 attempt for me but just wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their endeavours. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how y'all get on.

That's hard luck! Maybe you could be ready for a marathon next spring!

ariana`

RedRunner wrote: »

I have officially withdrawn from DCM 2018 ( ie I have said it out loud and put it in my boards training log:)) due to injury. so no sub 4 attempt for me but just wanted to wish everyone the best of luck with their endeavours. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how y'all get on.

Sorry to hear this. Best of luck with your recovery.

skyblue46

Yevon wrote: »

Couple of questions for you other 4 hour chasers; what pace in KM are you running your long runs? I'm doing around 5.50 - 6 minutes per KM.

I'm also running 3 other times per week, 11k each at the moment (going up to 13k on peak mileage). One slow, one hard and one starting slow and finishing hard. I try to do the slow one the day before my long run to get used to running on tired legs.

Any recommendations or comments?

If you are comfortable doing long runs in 5:50 then you are either doing them a bit fast or you are realistically looking at a 3:45 marathon. It's only 10 secs a Km over PMP for 4 hour. Is it a genuinely slow feeling run?

skyblue46

Yevon wrote: »

My last run was 26k, finished at 5.50 pace, comfortable for a long time but I did find the run tough towards the end. So I do think maybe I'm going a bit hard. I'm definitely no 3.45er yet! 28k tomorrow so I'll try slow it down.

Closer to 6 minutes would be better?

Any ideas on the midweek runs? Wondering whether I'd be better divide it up differently rather than 3 equal runs.

Yeah 6/6:10 would be good.

I'd introduce a slightly longer midweek run at with PMP miles in the middle of it... Shorten the run following that to be a recovery run. Keep the third one at easy pace.

ewc78

Yevon wrote: »

Couple of questions for you other 4 hour chasers; what pace in KM are you running your long runs? I'm doing around 5.50 - 6 minutes per KM.

I'm also running 3 other times per week, 11k each at the moment (going up to 13k on peak mileage). One slow, one hard and one starting slow and finishing hard. I try to do the slow one the day before my long run to get used to running on tired legs.

Any recommendations or comments?

I'm doing all my slower runs at about that pace also, I find it very comfortable running at that pace. Also have been doing a longish midweek Marathon Pace run (16km)and on some of my long weekend runs have been finishing with Marathon Pace miles, say 10miles easy and last 8 miles at MP. I really feel it's brought me on loads doing this.
If you find the 5:50km/6:00 pace easy and you're not wrecked after the run then I say stick with what you're doing,if you're finishing the run and feeling wrecked then slow down a little bit. Also maybe do some MP miles midweek or/and at the end of your long run.

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm doing all my slower runs at about that pace also, I find it very comfortable running at that pace. Also have been doing a longish midweek Marathon Pace run (16km)and on some of my long weekend runs have been finishing with Marathon Pace miles, say 10miles easy and last 8 miles at MP. I really feel it's brought me on loads doing this.
If you find the 5:50km/6:00 pace easy and you're not wrecked after the run then I say stick with what you're doing,if you're finishing the run and feeling wrecked then slow down a little bit. Also maybe do some MP miles midweek or/and at the end of your long run.

What's your MP on the MP runs and the finishing section of your long run if you don't mind me asking?

judeboy101

Spent last two weeks fighting a chest infection and then sinusitis. Still not 100% my running has suffered.ran 10miler last week in 85mins, pb but was high as a kite on pseudo. Got my email from dcm about what wave (wave 2) they obviously have a high opinion of me lol.

Pink11

Hope everyone is well? How are you all feeling ahead of the half this Saturday?

I had the Kilkenny 3/4 marathon Saturday. Event was a bit of a nightmare, for anyone interested I talked about the issues here.

I woke up Saturday morning with a head cold and sore throat. I decided I would still do it but take it easy and not worry about pacing - I kept my watch out of sight. I just wanted to get the miles into my legs and will use your plan ariana' for the Irish 3/4 marathon on Oct 7th instead!

To my surprise, I ended up having quite a nice run all things considered.

My splits per mile were as follows:

1 9.26
2 8.42
3 8.58
4 8.58
5 8.51
6 8.48
7 8.50
8 8.53
9 8.35
10 8.57
11 8.54
12 9.17
13 9.10
14 9.39
15 9.40
16 10.05
17 9.32
18 9.52

Due to traffic issues and terrible directions/lack of signs on the route, my pacing fell down in the last few miles as we were asked to STOP to allow cars to pass :mad:

This week is looking pretty grim. Can't shake this cold, will keep things at a bare minimum as I want to be able to race on Saturday.

boardtc

skyblue46 wrote: »

Another option which might work for you is to have a look at this site.
http://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

It gives pace bands which take course elevation into account and also allows you to choose from even splits, negative or positive splits. It also lets you select how conservatively you start out.

DCM will be my first Marathon after 7 HMs in the last 4 years. This year I have raced 2 HM and 3 10M and used 2% negative split pacing plans with a custom laminated pace band, racing well in each - runcalc.net/#split is a great site for this. I PBed with 01:20:36 & 01:47:57. I'm using the boards TP, missing just one LSR at the end of July.

Question 1
I dream of a 03:45, hoping a HMx2+10min applies to me rather than +20min

I was planning to run 2% negative before finding findmymarathon.com via here. The course adjusted aggressive negative split seems the way to go for me. I'm unsure about being able to run negative for those last 10k! I'll have to see on the day!

Do any of ye have experience of running DCM negative targeting 03:45? Having never run more than 32k until the DCM can the plan be executed?!

Question 2
My last pacing band was affected by my sprayed water\sweat and I like the sound of these findmymarathon bands. The postage of 15.5 USD is a bit outrageous, is there any ParcelMotel like service that will do reasonable postage for such a small item?

Question 3
When I registered I did not know about waves and just put down 4 hours, so I am in wave 3. Even though I will run negatively I would like to be in Wave 2 to be aware of where the 3.45 pacers are. From my reading, it does not seem possible to move up waves. I emailed them when they sent me the mail last week with no response. Is it worth emailing office@dublinmarathon.ie or any other advice?

Thanks all!

RayCun

Aiming for a negative split is the right thing to do, especially in Dublin where the first half is a little harder than the second.

But I don't think a 1:47 half is fast enough to target a 3:45 marathon.
have a look at this thread
There's one guy with a similar time who ran under 3:40, everyone else with a similar time ran about 4 hours.

You can mail the marathon office to ask about changing waves. But your times indicate a 4 hour finish, and that's what you put on your entry form, so they're unlikely to move you.

If you think you'll finish in less than four hours, just start in front of the four hour pacers, at the very start of the wave. You'll have (relatively) empty roads to run into.

You do know there aren't any 3:45 pacers?

Kellygirl

boardtc wrote: »

DCM will be my first Marathon after 7 HMs in the last 4 years. This year I have raced 2 HM and 3 10M and used 2% negative split pacing plans with a custom laminated pace band, racing well in each - runcalc.net/#split is a great site for this. I PBed with 01:20:36 & 01:47:57. I'm using the boards TP, missing just one LSR at the end of July.

Question 1
I dream of a 03:45, hoping a HMx2+10min applies to me rather than +20min I was planning to run 2% negative before finding findmymarathon.com via here. The course adjusted aggressive negative split seems the way to go for me. I'm unsure about being able to run negative for those last 10k! I'll have to see on the day!

Do any of ye have experience of running DCM negative targeting 03:45? Having never run more than 32k until the DCM can the plan be executed?!

Question 2
My last pacing band was affected by my sprayed water\sweat and I like the sound of these findmymarathon bands. The postage of 15.5 USD is a bit outrageous, is there any ParcelMotel like service that will do reasonable postage for such a small item?

Question 3
When I registered I did not know about waves and just put down 4 hours, so I am in wave 3. Even though I will run negatively I would like to be in Wave 2 to be aware of where the 3.45 pacers are. From my reading, it does not seem possible to move up waves. I emailed them when they sent me the mail last week with no response. Is it worth emailing office@dublinmarathon.ie or any other advice?

Thanks all!

Lazare used that paceband last year and came in or around that time.

I have always printed and laminated my own pacebands - sometimes I use sellotape to cover them or Contact that you get to cover school books. I’ve never had a problem with them getting wet. You can also buy waterproof paper.

There aren’t any 3:45 pacers.

skyblue46

Kellygirl wrote: »

Lazare used that paceband last year and came in or around that time.

I have always printed and laminated my own pacebands - sometimes I use sellotape to cover them or Contact that you get to cover school books. I’ve never had a problem with them getting wet. You can also buy waterproof paper.

There aren’t any 3:45 pacers.

If I'm not mistaken Lazare had a 1:46 half and used the paceband to a 3:56/58 approx DCM. As Ray says 3:45 off a 1:47 half is at the ambitious end of the scale.

Kellygirl

skyblue46 wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken Lazare had a 1:46 half and used the paceband to a 3:56/58 approx DCM. As Ray says 3:45 off a 1:47 half is at the ambitious end of the scale.

Knowing your head for numbers you probably aren’t mistaken.:)

The Black Oil

12 miles easy, with strides. Knocked last night's mental doubts down. Yep...

Lazare

Kellygirl wrote: »

Knowing your head for numbers you probably aren’t mistaken.:)

Skyblue is right, I ran a 1:46:13 half and a 3:58:08 DCM.

You're right about that band though, it got me there.

Highly recommend.

coogy

Lazare wrote: »

Skyblue is right, I ran a 1:46:13 half and a 3:58:08 DCM.

You're right about that band though, it got me there.

Highly recommend.

I'm in two minds about the pace band. Even thinking about wearing two, one on each wrist to represent Plan A and one for Plan B.

Murph_D

It’s not the paceband that will get you there. It’s the months of training, the choices you make about where you train, the quality of that training. Everything else is just accessorizing!

. Good luck!

coogy

I must say, coming into the last couple of miles at the Ratoath half marathon, without the crutch of a pacer or a pacing band, kind of felt exhilarating, knowing that I'd achieved this as a result of being focused and ultra determined.

Hope I get the same sort of kick during DCM!!

Lazare

Murph_D wrote: »

It’s not the paceband that will get you there. It’s the months of training, the choices you make about where you train, the quality of that training. Everything else is just accessorizing! . Good luck!

Oh of course, a paceband holds no magic powers. I suppose what it represents though is a good pacing strategy, which is vitally important. Particularly for DCM which is set up for a negative.

I had an excellent advice driven pacing strategy last year that I would not have been able to follow without that band.

boardtc

RayCun wrote: »

Aiming for a negative split is the right thing to do, especially in Dublin where the first half is a little harder than the second.

But I don't think a 1:47 half is fast enough to target a 3:45 marathon.
have a look at this thread
There's one guy with a similar time who ran under 3:40, everyone else with a similar time ran about 4 hours.

Thanks for the reply, even if it was depressing

So why is the McMillan prediction so off then to the reality? I don't get it.

A lot of people on that list didn't train properly. So actually, I think another column should be added in that table to indicate if the runner took the marathon seriously and was injury free, for me that would make it a more useful one, you could filter depending on whether you trained correctly / injury status.

This morning I am asking myself why would I do my planned hill session today! I think I need to forget that I asked the question and just crack on!

RayCun

boardtc wrote: »

So why is the McMillan prediction so off then to the reality? I don't get it.

Most of the people on that thread who were doing their first marathon hadn't been running for very long, just a year or two. They don't have the same aerobic development of someone who has been running long distances for years, and so their pace will decline more over time. I think McMillan is a better predictor for more experienced runners.

There are other predictors around
https://www.fetcheveryone.com/training-calculators-improvedriegel.php
says 1:47 means 4:09

you could also try this one
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/

ReeReeG

I downloaded that Pace-Man app I saw mentioned on the Strava DCM 18 group. Linked it to my Strava and it pulls in all the training runs for the past year I believe (sidenote: the complete lack of care I show in sharing my personal data should probably worry me) and it gave me 4.10 prediction for DCM, with a 1.46 HM taken into account. Disappointing, but possibly realistic.

Pink11

Personally, not a fan of race predictors. Feel like it would bring me into a race feeling pessimistic.

My first marathon I ran a 1.49 half and a 4 hrs 4 mins marathon a few weeks later. I felt had I paid attention to the time I could have done a sub 4 but I made a conscious decision to enjoy the experience and not worry about a target time because it was my first. I didn't push myself to the brink on the day.

RayCun

ReeReeG wrote: »

I downloaded that Pace-Man app I saw mentioned on the Strava DCM 18 group. Linked it to my Strava and it pulls in all the training runs for the past year I believe (sidenote: the complete lack of care I show in sharing my personal data should probably worry me) and it gave me 4.10 prediction for DCM, with a 1.46 HM taken into account. Disappointing, but possibly realistic.

The problem I have with the Pace-man app is that they assume everyone is going to run a positive split, slowing down a lot in the last 10k. It happens to a lot of people, but it isn't inevitable, it's the result of poor pacing. You should be able to run even/slightly negative splits.

ReeReeG

RayCun wrote: »

ReeReeG wrote: »

I downloaded that Pace-Man app I saw mentioned on the Strava DCM 18 group. Linked it to my Strava and it pulls in all the training runs for the past year I believe (sidenote: the complete lack of care I show in sharing my personal data should probably worry me) and it gave me 4.10 prediction for DCM, with a 1.46 HM taken into account. Disappointing, but possibly realistic.

The problem I have with the Pace-man app is that they assume everyone is going to run a positive split, slowing down a lot in the last 10k. It happens to a lot of people, but it isn't inevitable, it's the result of poor pacing. You should be able to run even/slightly negative splits.

Yeah I did notice that, had assumed they do that based on the very common experience of hitting a wall / fading. Which I will try my very hardest to avoid, certainly won't have the goal of a positive split anyway.