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The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

Long time lurker but first time poster here.As the title suggests. A thread for anyone trying to break 4hrs in the Marathon.
I've had two rather unsuccessful Marathons already. Dublin 2014 and Dublin 2016.
I had no business running Dublin 2014 as I'd only finished couch to 5k at the start of that year after never running before. I got roped into it by a charity that I'm involved in and felt I couldn't say no, but I really wasn't ready for it.
I struggled around in just under 5hrs and didn't enjoy any of it.
2016 was a bit better and I was better prepared and my main goal was to enjoy it. I hadn't much of a base going into Marathon training but I did all the training and came home in 4:25 but more importantly for me anyway was I enjoyed the whole experience from start to finish.
I decided there and then at the finish line though that I wasn't going to do or train for another Marathon until I had a decent base behind me. The next Marathon I did I wanted to give it a proper go.
Since the end of Dublin 2016 I've kept a consistent enough milage of between 25-30miles a week. With various tempo runs and intervals thrown in and a long run when I can.
I haven't done any races since apart from park runs( which I know aren't races) but as a measure of progress my 5km time has dropped from 26 minutes and a bit down to 22:04.
My aim is obviously to go sub 4 in the Dublin Marathon this October.
I haven't decided on a training plan yet but have been reading Hanson's Marathon method book recently.
I realise I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but with being almost 40, and alot of my time taken up with being self employed and having 3 kids under the age of 6 I feel a sub 4hr would be a good achievement for me personally.
Would be interested in hearing from anyone else hoping to go Sub 4hr for the first time also.
Doesn't have to be just the Dublin Marathon either.
Thanks.

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The Black Oil

skyblue46 wrote: »

Does this lead to a change of DCM target? Nice to get the quick chat. Sorry about the sudden departure. When herself says jump I just ask how high! :pac:

Good to talk to you.

I'm not sure, haven't given it a lot if thought yet. Should I revise my training paces now or stick the current ones?

Murph_D

The Black Oil wrote: »

Good to talk to you.

I'm not sure, haven't given it a lot if thought yet. Should I revise my training paces now or stick the current ones?

I would revise. Much better to be training off paces based on current fitness. The new M target will still be a big challenge, but a more appropriate one. Well done on the PB.

coogy

Just curious, is anyone here on this thread, who is actually aiming for a sub 4, a first time marathon runner like myself?

Mr. Guappa

coogy wrote: »

Just curious, is anyone here on this thread, who is actually aiming for a sub 4, a first time marathon runner like myself?

I am a fellow novice, and targetting sub 4, maybe.

I've two 1hr 23min 10 milers from this year, Dungarvan (February) and Cobh (April).
I also have two recent half marathons under my belt. The first was a 2:09 disaster on a baking hot afternoon in early July.
The second was Clonmel the week before last. I completed that in a controlled 1:54, with a strong finish.

I'm really 50/50 on whether to go for sub 4. McMillan has me there or thereabouts, but I understand that their predictions are optimistic.

coogy

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I am a fellow novice, and targetting sub 4, maybe.

I've two 1hr 23min 10 milers from this year, Dungarvan (February) and Cobh (April).
I also have two recent half marathons under my belt. The first was a 2:09 disaster on a baking hot afternoon in early July.
The second was Clonmel the week before last. I completed that in a controlled 1:54, with a strong finish.

I'm really 50/50 on whether to go for sub 4. McMillan has me there or thereabouts, but I understand that their predictions are optimistic.

My race experience is quite limited. A 10k in April (43:35), a 10 mile in July (1:18) and a half marathon coming up next week.
Still, I feel like I have a sub-4 in me and am in a good place with training etc.

RayCun

My own experience is that in the race series leading up to my first marathon, I ran 81 minutes in the 10 mile and 1:47 in the half, then 3:58. I might have had another few minutes in me in the marathon, but not much.

There's a thread around somewhere comparing people's first marathon times to the half marathon they ran before it. I think for sub 4 you really need to be running under 1:50 in a half. And whatever time you are going for, in your first marathon you are better off aiming for a conservative time, and maybe speeding up at the end, then going for a tough time and suffering through the last - very slow - 10 miles.

coogy

RayCun wrote: »

My own experience is that in the race series leading up to my first marathon, I ran 81 minutes in the 10 mile and 1:47 in the half, then 3:58. I might have had another few minutes in me in the marathon, but not much.

There's a thread around somewhere comparing people's first marathon times to the half marathon they ran before it. I think for sub 4 you really need to be running under 1:50 in a half. And whatever time you are going for, in your first marathon you are better off aiming for a conservative time, and maybe speeding up at the end, then going for a tough time and suffering through the last - very slow - 10 miles.

Were you actually running for a sub 4 during your first marathon?

RayCun

coogy wrote: »

Were you actually running for a sub 4 during your first marathon?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68689591&postcount=213

https://www.strava.com/activities/278878651

Mr. Guappa

I think this maybe the half marathon times versus marathon times thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055722603&page=1

ariana`

RayCun wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68689591&postcount=213

https://www.strava.com/activities/278878651

Thanks for that, good reading

ariana`

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I think this maybe the half marathon times versus marathon times thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055722603&page=1

I remember seeing a table somewhere before which was easier to see at a glance. Or maybe i imagined it :P

RayCun

ariana` wrote: »

I remember seeing a table somewhere before which was easier to see at a glance. Or maybe i imagined it :P

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86583749

ariana`

RayCun wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86583749

Thanks Ray, that's it

coogy

RayCun wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86583749

Cheers!!!

Murph_D

RayCun wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68689591&postcount=213

https://www.strava.com/activities/278878651

Thanks for that link Ray - I think that’s a great description of a debut marathon. Very similar to my own experience, although I didn’t make the sub-4.

Supercell

coogy wrote: »

Just curious, is anyone here on this thread, who is actually aiming for a sub 4, a first time marathon runner like myself?

I'm hoping for around 3:45 maybe a little less, its my second year consistently running but first year I may actually make it to the start line through injuries and car accidants.
I'll be happy to go sub 4 but given the amount of time running on and off over the years, I'll probably feel that I've let myself down if its more than my goal, unless injury strikes during the race of course or I'm feeling ill on the day or something.
My PB's on the online various calculators around would indicate this is a conservative enough goal but I know enough to respect the distance.
The goal may change in the coming weeks when the big 20 LSR's are done though! I'm hoping to do one 22 just to have that psychological boost of knowing what to expect out that far and sheer bloody mindedness to keep going for another four on the big day.

duffer247

Hi all
Late joiner here. Did the DCM in 2015 with the Novices thread; generally run on my own so I found the novices thread great help. I came in at 4:30 in 2015, sciatic nerve issue flared up in half marathon that year but tbh I wasn't aiming for much faster. In the intervening period I have run a lot but much shorter distances. Giving DCM another go this year with the aim of sub 4.

Currently somewhere between the HH novices plan and BoardsHH plan, but all going well. Running 5-6 times a week without fail.
Last LSR was 28k @6:03 av pace.
I run 8k @lunchtime @5:30 pace (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Tuesday rest day
Then light recovery 5k runs any other day
I would like to convert Wed 8k into a longer run I think

Did FD 10mile on Sunday and happily came in at 76:46

Still very aware of sciatic nerve issue. Go to physio every month, she seems happy but is not keen on me running to time.

Pink11

duffer247 wrote: »

Hi all
Late joiner here. Did the DCM in 2015 with the Novices thread; generally run on my own so I found the novices thread great help. I came in at 4:30 in 2015, sciatic nerve issue flared up in half marathon that year but tbh I wasn't aiming for much faster. In the intervening period I have run a lot but much shorter distances. Giving DCM another go this year with the aim of sub 4.

Currently somewhere between the HH novices plan and BoardsHH plan, but all going well. Running 5-6 times a week without fail.
Last LSR was 28k @6:03 av pace.
I run 8k @lunchtime @5:30 pace (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Tuesday rest day
Then light recovery 5k runs any other day
I would like to convert Wed 8k into a longer run I think

Did FD 10mile on Sunday and happily came in at 76:46

Still very aware of sciatic nerve issue. Go to physio every month, she seems happy but is not keen on me running to time.

Cool to see you're still around & running. I remember you from the DCM novices thread in 2015! Aiming for a sub 4 myself this year. Best of luck.

superbad50

Hi all,

Got the chance of a ticket for the Dublin Marathon... Started training only 3 weeks ago. week 1: 40 miles... week 2: 38 miles, week 3: this week will have 40 miles done... Most runs have been easy... Did Rock and Roll Marathon 2 weeks ago in 1.55... Would sub 4 hour be unrealistic.. I have 2, 13 mile runs, 2 x16 miles run, a 17 mile and an 18 mile done thus far... Have done 4 intervals todate.. I'm going away for 10 days mid september but plan on running on holidays... Ran a 4.08 in 2016 and a 3.58 in 2015... Never kept up the running... Any advice welcomeðŸ˜Ž

superbad50

duffer247 wrote:

Still very aware of sciatic nerve issue. Go to physio every month, she seems happy but is not keen on me running to time.

duffer247 wrote:

Did FD 10mile on Sunday and happily came in at 76:46

Really good time for the 10 mile run.. I would say you are where you should be for a sub 4

ariana`

superbad50 wrote: »

Hi all,

Got the chance of a ticket for the Dublin Marathon... Started training only 3 weeks ago. week 1: 40 miles... week 2: 38 miles, week 3: this week will have 40 miles done... Most runs have been easy... Did Rock and Roll Marathon 2 weeks ago in 1.55... Would sub 4 hour be unrealistic.. I have 2, 13 mile runs, 2 x16 miles run, a 17 mile and an 18 mile done thus far... Have done 4 intervals todate.. I'm going away for 10 days mid september but plan on running on holidays... Ran a 4.08 in 2016 and a 3.58 in 2015... Never kept up the running... Any advice welcome��

I might be slow here but i'm trying to figure out how you have 6 long runs and a HM done in 3 weeks

Did you race the HM? I ask because a 1:55 HM isn't really very promising for a sub 4 marathon. There's a generic formula which gives you a marathon time of 4:10 based on a 1:55 HM

(HM x 2) + 20 mins

This is generic however and that was a very tough marathon course by all accounts! And you have already run sub 4 and that experience will no doubt stand to you, in fact you have run 2 marathons in recent enough years. Nothing is impossible.

Welcome to the club and best of luck

ariana`

duffer247 wrote: »

Hi all
Late joiner here. Did the DCM in 2015 with the Novices thread; generally run on my own so I found the novices thread great help. I came in at 4:30 in 2015, sciatic nerve issue flared up in half marathon that year but tbh I wasn't aiming for much faster. In the intervening period I have run a lot but much shorter distances. Giving DCM another go this year with the aim of sub 4.

Currently somewhere between the HH novices plan and BoardsHH plan, but all going well. Running 5-6 times a week without fail.
Last LSR was 28k @6:03 av pace.
I run 8k @lunchtime @5:30 pace (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Tuesday rest day
Then light recovery 5k runs any other day
I would like to convert Wed 8k into a longer run I think

Did FD 10mile on Sunday and happily came in at 76:46

Still very aware of sciatic nerve issue. Go to physio every month, she seems happy but is not keen on me running to time.

On paper your 10m time is bang on for sub 4, very promising. As you said yourself try and increase the distance on one of your mid week runs (a medium long run so to speak) and slow down the lunchtime runs - or 2 of them at least

The thing jumping out at me is that you don't have much progression in what you are doing aside from increasing the distance on the long run - the rest of the week is the same week in week out - the plan i'm following has a session every week which is varied and gets increasingly more difficult using a range of different paces (tempo, marathon pace miles, threshold etc.). And you'll see the boards plan has a midweek run which also increases in difficulty as the weeks go on. I think your plan is missing a run with a bit of spice :cool:

Having said all of that i'm no expert but these are just my thoughts

duffer247

ariana` wrote: »

The thing jumping out at me is that you don't have much progression in what you are doing aside from increasing the distance on the long run - the rest of the week is the same week in week out - the plan i'm following has a session every week which is varied and gets increasingly more difficult using a range of different paces (tempo, marathon pace miles, threshold etc.). And you'll see the boards plan has a midweek run which also increases in difficulty as the weeks go on. I think your plan is missing a run with a bit of spice :cool:

Having said all of that i'm no expert but these are just my thoughts

Thanks Ariana
And yes I would agree, up until recently I had been doing an interval session every week, which had the added bonus of substantially improving my 5k time! I think I have fallen into a rhythm which is good for building the mileage but 100% need to get back to that session training.

Did the Grant Thornton 5k last night with work, 21:47. Felt weird stretching the legs so that's another sign to get that varied workout you highlighted into the weekly plan.

RedRunner

3 weeks now with no running due to injury. DCM startline now looking dodgy never mind sub 4.:(

Hedgehoggy

RedRunner wrote: »

3 weeks now with no running due to injury. DCM startline now looking dodgy never mind sub 4.:(

that's a pity and very frustrating I imagine - any idea what's going on - is physio helping at all?

Murph_D

duffer247 wrote: »

Hi all
Late joiner here. Did the DCM in 2015 with the Novices thread; generally run on my own so I found the novices thread great help. I came in at 4:30 in 2015, sciatic nerve issue flared up in half marathon that year but tbh I wasn't aiming for much faster. In the intervening period I have run a lot but much shorter distances. Giving DCM another go this year with the aim of sub 4.

Currently somewhere between the HH novices plan and BoardsHH plan, but all going well. Running 5-6 times a week without fail.
Last LSR was 28k @6:03 av pace.
I run 8k @lunchtime @5:30 pace (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Tuesday rest day
Then light recovery 5k runs any other day
I would like to convert Wed 8k into a longer run I think

Did FD 10mile on Sunday and happily came in at 76:46

Still very aware of sciatic nerve issue. Go to physio every month, she seems happy but is not keen on me running to time.

Agree with ariana, and the thing that really jumps out at me here is this thrice weekly lunchtime 8k run at faster than marathon pace. Far better to stick to one (possibly a little faster) and make the others easy/recovery runs. You need to build endurance, not speed (you already have that).

Best of luck!

superbad50

Hi

Thanks for the reply... Two weeks before I started training I ran two half Marathons and a 16 mile on the back of 2 or 3 10km races and some gym work... They where the only runs I did those weeks... I had no intentions of doing the Marathon until I was offered a ticket... I was just going to go around the course with a few mates who are newbies, more so for fun...

I've been doing 4.44km intervals and seemed to have improved in the last 2 weeks... Still clocking 40 miles weekly so I'll continue the training and see how I feel the week of... Yeah your probaby right on the 4.10... However still 7 weeks to go and feel somewhat confidemt I can break the 4 hour mark.

Thank you for your replyðŸ˜ŽðŸ˜Ž

duffer247

Murph_D wrote: »

Agree with ariana, and the thing that really jumps out at me here is this thrice weekly lunchtime 8k run at faster than marathon pace. Far better to stick to one (possibly a little faster) and make the others easy/recovery runs. You need to build endurance, not speed (you already have that).

Best of luck!

Just wondering if anybody has any suggestions re; 2 runs in a day? Is it a bad thing, does it increase injury potential? or build stamina?

I ask bec the lunchtime runs are great way for me to get out without impacting on home life. I can't run further than 8k @lunch so I was wondering if I did some kind of 2 run combination on a Wednesday (lunch & eve) to have that mid-week longer run with part of it involving intervals.
Or should I just cancel the Wednesday lunch run and do the longer run in the evening with the built in session as per BoardsHH

Thanks for all the advice guys, it is very much appreciated especially when an adjustment to the current activity can help so much.

RedRunner

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

that's a pity and very frustrating I imagine - any idea what's going on - is physio helping at all?

It's improving but at a very slow rate Hedgehoggy. Have had a couple of treatments of deep tissue massage and dry needling at this stage. Physio is fairly convince the root of the problem lies in hamstrings . Some scar tissue there and very tight. Makes some sense as my most recent injury preceding this was a hamstring strain on that side. I'll make a call this week to do DCM or not.

Pink11

Little bit of advice needed...

I have the medieval 3/4 marathon on Saturday and can't decide how much to run mid week this week. I want to be fresh.

Ran 21 miles on Saturday. Strength class Sunday. Rested yesterday. Today & tomorrow... was planning on doing 4 miles easy plus a strength class today and tomorrow. Resting thurs and fri as I want to be fresh and get an idea if I can pace a sub 4 on Saturday.