M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

there's been serious accidents all along that road, that's why the M20 is needed. Just drive it and note all the monuments.

Kevwoody

The other junctions are all different though.
For one, they are not being heavily used by tourist traffic heading for Blarney.
And secondly, once you turn off the N20 at Waterloo, the road is literally 200m long. It then intersects with the old Cork to Mallow road, so essentially its a shortcut. Closing it just means traffic will have to use the proper grade seperated junction a kilometre or so down the road.
As for locals posting photos of major traffic disruption in Blarney, the traffic was always like that in the mornings, closing Waterloo makes no difference whatsoever.

the old Cork Mallow road runs through Sluggera Cross to the east. The road that the closed link accessed at Waterloo is the Bweeng Rd , you could go to Mallow that way, but no one ever did, they all went via Rathduff which ever route was current.

1200 sign a petition and hand it into the county mayor asking that the Waterloo junction be reopened.

A left in left out only option isn't good enough apparently.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/1200-sign-petition-on-N20-junction-closure-6ab0de9f-055c-43ae-b416-b04468e3f646-ds

surprising no one went up there at night with a JCB

Isambard wrote: »

surprising no one went up there at night with a JCB

Potential criminal sanction the most likely reason. Gurranabraher is the district for that area at night time but you can be rest assured a car would be out there quickly if someone passing or indeed occupying one of the houses on that hill called it in.

I assume to clear it without council permission is in breach of some sort of road traffic or planning law?

chances are all the locals are signatories to the petition and deaf and blind at times. I wasn't advocating it btw

As if the existing N20 wasn't already dangerous enough,

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1038489047616970752

JCX BXC

Isambard wrote: »

chances are all the locals are signatories to the petition and deaf and blind at times. I wasn't advocating it btw

I certainly wouldn't want to be the one advocating for this when it rolls around to the next time someone is killed there.

Isambard wrote: »

chances are all the locals are signatories to the petition and deaf and blind at times. I wasn't advocating it btw

Yes I agree about the deaf/blind thing, however you will always find a goodie two shoes who will call it in.

If the junction were restored to pre closure status, what will the 1200 signatories say if another fatality occurs?

They want a safe junction and the only way is complete closure which is O.T.T or a LILO system only, they don't want either.

I would also distance myself from advocating any illegal activity with the current state of the junction and one taking the matter into their own hands.

AugustusMinimus

Should we close all sections of road where there have been accidents?

This is knee jerk. Pure and simple.

And that grade separated junction mentioned is a hell of a lot further than a kilometre away. More like about 5km.

Aontachtoir

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Should we close all sections of road where there have been accidents?

Do you genuinely think that is the argument here, or are you just being facetious?

This is a tough call for the council. I imagine if they re-open it the junction as a LILO though we will see a surge in illegal U-turns adjacent to the junction. Closing it until the M20 is built sounds like the safest option.

AugustusMinimus

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Do you genuinely think that is the argument here, or are you just being facetious?

This is a tough call for the council. I imagine if they re-open it the junction as a LILO though we will see a surge in illegal U-turns adjacent to the junction. Closing it until the M20 is built sounds like the safest option.

I keep saying that the limit should be reduced to 60kph with traffic calming introduced.

What would be wrong with that. This works perfectly for plenty of junctions between Macroom and Cork on the equally trafficked N22.

Closing the junction outright or even forcing LILO is typical Irish knee jerk. Very little thought at all what this could do for the local community in Waterloo. None at all.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I keep saying that the limit should be reduced to 60kph with traffic calming introduced.

What would be wrong with that. This works perfectly for plenty of junctions between Macroom and Cork on the equally trafficked N22.

Closing the junction outright or even forcing LILO is typical Irish knee jerk. Very little thought at all what this could do for the local community in Waterloo. None at all.

The limit is currently 60km/h through that whole section as the roadworks aren't quite finished. You'd be hard pushed to find anyone doing that speed or slowing at all. A speed limit and an opened junction is not the solution unless you have draconian traffic calming to enforce it. A LILO would work perfectly well as a compromise as the people wishing to turn right now on to the N20 to travel to Whitechurch (the lack of which facility seems to be their main objection) could use the turn not far north which is a direct road to Whitechurch school via Sluggera Cross.
Having said that, Council deserve every bit of criticism thrown at them for their handling of this.

Isambard wrote: »

The limit is currently 60km/h through that whole section as the roadworks aren't quite finished. You'd be hard pushed to find anyone doing that speed or slowing at all. A speed limit and an opened junction is not the solution unless you have draconian traffic calming to enforce it. A LILO would work perfectly well as a compromise as the people wishing to turn right now on to the N20 to travel to Whitechurch (the lack of which facility seems to be their main objection) could use the turn not far north which is a direct road to Whitechurch school via Sluggera Cross.
Having said that, Council deserve every bit of criticism thrown at them for their handling of this.

Good point re the existing 60km/h speed limit it just isn't observed at all. I am in favour of keeping it fully open however. The sight-lines are excellent, the junction is to standard from an engineering point of view. The LILO solution doesn't solve the issue of right turning vehicles is just pushes the problem to another junction further north. Is turning right from a main road so much safer than turning right from a side road across the main road?
The issue with the tourists seems to be turning right from the main road but are we now happy for the locals to do it at the junction further north? Its a driver error issue - proper signage for Blarney, get sat-navs and goolge maps to not route via the junction and get Blarney castle website to put up proper directions on their website would go a long way to addressing the issue.

marno21

With regard to reporting requirements I would like to explain that, in line with the requirements of the Public Spending Code (PSC) and my Department's Capital Appraisal Framework (CAF), two sets of approvals are required in relation to projects such as the M20 Cork to Limerick motorway - approval of the Business Case and Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA) for the project and separately, approval by An Bord Pleanála (ABP) of an application for development consent. Neither of these milestones have yet been reached in respect of this project.

TII has advised me that Technical Advisors for the project are currently being procured by Limerick City and County Council. As a consequence the planning and design of the Scheme are due to commence in 2019. This process will include a number of project stages including an examination of project concept and feasibility, options selection and design and environmental evaluation.

I am really finding it hard to stay positive in any way about how this seems to be going.

This was initially reactivated in November 2016 and now in 2019 there is going to be "project concept and feasibility". What was the €1m in 2017 and the €1.5m in 2018 for then ?

marno21 wrote: »

I am really finding it hard to stay positive in any way about how this seems to be going.

This was initially reactivated in November 2016 and now in 2019 there is going to be "project concept and feasibility". What was the €1m in 2017 and the €1.5m in 2018 for then ?

Deliberate attempt to stall it? I see no positivity myself in what is going on.

marno21 wrote: »

I am really finding it hard to stay positive in any way about how this seems to be going.

This was initially reactivated in November 2016 and now in 2019 there is going to be "project concept and feasibility". What was the €1m in 2017 and the €1.5m in 2018 for then ?

The RFT for consultants on etenders refers to a 4 year contract period with an expected start date of September 2018 and with an expected value of €8M. If it is now expected to be 2019 before it commences then maybe there was a legal challenge to the tender process although I would have expected that to make the newspapers.

The scope of service to be provided by the consultants refers to the TII project management guidelines Phase 1 (Concept & Feasibility) through Stage 4 (Statutory Processes). The RFT also mentions the possibility of a contractor coming on board prior to planning as part of an Early Collaboration Contract .

They also mention that a Project Office will be provided by Limerick CCC in Limerick. So maybe that's what the €1.5M this year was for - rent and fit-out of a project office and 3 months of consultant fees. The million last year was for early activity studies and modelling. So that's €9M. Maybe another €3M million for site investigation, archaeology & surveys if they pick a different route plus rent. Last time round i think the total figure quoted to bring it to planning was €20M.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/200912

annfield1978

Consultants have been pre qualified so waiting on Tender Documents for Stages 1 to 4 of the TII PM Guidelines.

This summer there have been a number of significant tenders on the N2 (50km), M11 from M50 to Kilmancanogue, the N4 Mullingar to Longford Rooskey (50km), a Framework for 12 to 15 Schemes to be brought through planning plus the M20 PQQ, so they are being drip fed as consultants cant work on all of them at the same time

annfield1978 wrote: »

Consultants have been pre qualified so waiting on Tender Documents for Stages 1 to 4 of the TII PM Guidelines.

This summer there have been a number of significant tenders on the N2 (50km), M11 from M50 to Kilmancanogue, the N4 Mullingar to Longford Rooskey (50km), a Framework for 12 to 15 Schemes to be brought through planning plus the M20 PQQ, so they are being drip fed as consultants cant work on all of them at the same time

Also once the N6 Galway City Ring Road and N69/N21 Foynes to Limerick are lodged for planning that will free up two large design teams. Hopefully this will all happen sooner rather than later!!

marno21

Today's DPER Capital Investment Tracker has good news. €56m to be spent on the M20 between now and 2022. It indicates a 2021 start but I think this is ambitious.

This likely means that money is set aside for land acquisition before 2022 which is a positive.

marno21 wrote: »

Today's DPER Capital Investment Tracker has good news. €56m to be spent on the M20 between now and 2022. It indicates a 2021 start but I think this is ambitious.

This likely means that money is set aside for land acquisition before 2022 which is a positive.

Still 6/7 years at the earliest from the grand opening if everything goes to plan?

marno21

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Still 6/7 years at the earliest from the grand opening if everything goes to plan?

Looking that way.

Unless there's a NIMBY squad in Rathduff we might even see an M20 before an M28.

marno21 wrote: »

Looking that way.

Unless there's a NIMBY squad in Rathduff we might even see an M20 before an M28.

I was waiting for you to drop over there actually.

Lets hope that the Whitechuch/Waterloo residents let this go to plan peacefully after they get the junction sorted.

Charleville could be where the issue is for NIMBY's

marno21 wrote: »

Today's DPER Capital Investment Tracker has good news. €56m to be spent on the M20 between now and 2022. It indicates a 2021 start but I think this is ambitious.

This likely means that money is set aside for land acquisition before 2022 which is a positive.

Yes it's a start anyways. Do well to be lodged for planning in 2021! And no doubt there will be the inevitable judicial review or two!

Bazzer007

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I was waiting for you to drop over there actually.

Lets hope that the Whitechuch/Waterloo residents let this go to plan peacefully after they get the junction sorted.

Charleville could be where the issue is for NIMBY's

Why do you think Charleville may be a concern for NIMBY’s? Thanks.

Bazzer007 wrote: »

Why do you think Charleville may be a concern for NIMBY’s? Thanks.

There was a piece on the news earlier this year if I remember correctly, where they interviewed the locals & farmers who said it would cut the community & farm in 2 etc, this is the reason for that comment, that aside I have e nothing to add to it.

Calina

Charleville is crying out for it.

AugustusMinimus

Calina wrote: »

Charleville is crying out for it.

The town is destroyed with traffic. Could easily become a business / shopping hub but for the traffic.