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Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Skinhead Kane

Greetings guys and girls,

I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time now and have yet to make a real judgement on what truly would be a correct answer. If were to go to a country populated by the Muslim community we would be asked to cover up and follow their religious procedure.

Therefore in Britain and Ireland I believe we are within our rights to ban something that isolates woman and was made by men to oppress them. If I were to show my hair/head in their countries, I would be seen as obscene.

Recently came back from a trip and had some female friends been told by locals to cover their arms and legs as well as hair before entering out of the city centre areas. It was a very aggressive approach to and almost demanded 'or we leave the country' type of attitude. Now not using this as a reason or motive to make this topic, but it has however got me thinking.

If I could vote on it, I would ban burqas and possibly hijab.

What's your take on this guys?

Regards,

Sk

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ohnonotgmail

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I dont feel offended at the implied misandry funnily enough (although it totally is).
I just don't get why someone wants to shut out society. Yet want to be part of it. Makes no sense to me.

or, you know, they want to interact with it on their terms. You seem to think there is something wrong with that.

Malayalam

Danzy wrote: »

It is one that has been lost years ago in many Mosques across Europe and with good reason to suspect in Dublin and reason to suspect lost to a greater level than most other parts of Europe, given we had the highest per capita rate of people going abroad to fight in Islamist orgs. from Europe.

In Britain, over half of Mosques are controlled by fundamentalist groups, with the % in England higher again.

It is not just back street Mosques or a rented hall on Friday, it is main Mosques, ones that cater to thousands at a time.

.....

Look at Didsbury Mosque in Manchester, capacity 1000, preachers there calling for armed Jihad, that is not unusual, Channel Four said it readily found extremist material in Mosques and their book stores. ....

When the Police and establishment in Britain did not start arresting people for calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie, even if it meant charging thousands, it lost the initiative.

....

Grayson wrote: »

I know a hell of a lot about islam. I also know a lot of Muslims. I've even lived in a muslim country. I have a feeling you know feck all except for what you've read on rightwing sites.

I believe that you probably do know a lot about Islam and are a reasonable person. (Although I haven't been keeping track of your voting record on these kind of issues ... )

But...

Why don't you respond to something like the points in the post above quoted instead of brushing past them?

Responding to actual provable concerns might foster better understanding.

I am kind of tired of ending up feeling like some right wing monster for having real concerns about fundamentalist religion being fostered surreptitiously in liberal societies, and enabled because we don't want to offend. The evidence regularly surfaces about extremist preaching and materials and online groups and quiet jihad. You know this. How do you respond?

But you know, that is only part of what bothers me. I also hate to think of the women and girls living medieval lives just below the radar of us regular western people - being dispatched abroad for arranged marriages, having to wear restrictive clothing, being removed from school before finishing, not fulfilling their dreams, etc. And even if it is a small number, every one of those invisible people is one too many.

How do you respond also to fatwas issued against Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

dennispenn

Grayson wrote: »

I know a hell of a lot about islam. I also know a lot of Muslims. I've even lived in a muslim country. I have a feeling you know feck all except for what you've read on rightwing sites.

Where is it that you lived?

I've already said,i don't subscribe to any right-wing websites.

dennispenn

DChancer wrote: »

I'm usually offended by racists ,bigots, the ignorant looking for a scapegoat ,xenophobia and right wing white supremist nutjobs

You forgot to call me a Nazi. Would have been the full house then.

Just because you know of a few Muslims or people who you believe are Muslims doesn't automatically mean that you are knowledgeable about ISLAM.
are you not getting It yet?

Roger Hassenforder

Shenshen wrote: »

That's an interesting way to read that. I know that a nun's habit is meant to express the same thing, a rejection of worldly affairs in favour of godly ones.

But personally, I always get a slightly different message (though by now means a better one). By hiding away in as much clothes as possible, a message is being sent to all men that the female hidden in the clothes does not trust them not to give in to their base desires and rape the female in question, should she show so much as an inch of skin. I always thought of the niqab and the burqa as deeply, deeply misandric.

I dont feel offended at the implied misandry funnily enough (although it totally is).
I just don't get why someone wants to shut out society. Yet want to be part of it. Makes no sense to me.

Roger Hassenforder

Grayson wrote: »

Loads of adults get dressed up for halloween.

As for the bolded bit, are you saying that when a Saudi woman wears a hijab she's rejecting Saudi culture? Because that's a bit mad.

I'm not going to attempt to explain why a woman wears a Burka. I'm sure there's many reasons and it can vary from woman to woman. I'm also sure it probably doesn't have anything to do with a rejection of themselves. Maybe for one or two but not most.
The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that neither you nor I can speak as to why every woman who wears a burka does so.

At Halloween
A festival of dressing up. Of customer and masks. Where grown ups give kids sweets.
Its a brutal comparison in fairness.

We're talking about burkas in Dublin (And presumably inter alia Ireland)
Couldn't give a toss what/how they dress in Saudi.

They're not rejecting themselves. They're rejecting you. Or in other words, it's a barrier to prevent you/them having contact with each other. Why they do it? No idea. But that's with it is. A barrier to prevent contact.

If it was so important to express their faith, why it wear it the whole time? Why only remove it at home?
Because proponents of it regard women as chattel. Property of the men of the family. And it's the most regressive, fundamentalist Muslims that wear it.

We were in Milan a few years ago. We werent let into a catholic church because the wife had shorts and shoulders uncovered. Id shorts. Wasnt a bit offended. If you want to come into a place, you should respect the "house rules."

If we shouldnt be prescriptive of what people are allowed wear , should we also allow people to wear as little as they want?
You'd be ok with a man moving his lawn buck naked next door to a school.
Where are your lines drawn?

DChancer

Woop woop
I found the ignore button

Grayson

dennispenn wrote: »

Do you think that I am kidding?

Is Islam compatible with Western society?

I've a feeling that you know very little about It and it's teachings. Islam will eat itself up when It conquers the world. Look for ancient map's of Islamic countries,then compare it to modern day maps.

I know a hell of a lot about islam. I also know a lot of Muslims. I've even lived in a muslim country. I have a feeling you know feck all except for what you've read on rightwing sites.

DChancer

dennispenn wrote: »

DChancer wrote: »

I know plenty about it being that my niece two grand nieces are Muslim as are my barber my book keeper and several friends.
You need to cop on and calm down

Wow,thats a whole list of I've got Muslim friends.

What is it that offends you?

I'm usually offended by racists ,bigots, the ignorant looking for a scapegoat ,xenophobia and right wing white supremist nutjobs

dennispenn

DChancer wrote: »

I know plenty about it being that my niece two grand nieces are Muslim as are my barber my book keeper and several friends.
You need to cop on and calm down

You should learn to differentiate between Islam and Muslims.

My issue is with Islam and it's teachings.

dennispenn

DChancer wrote: »

I know plenty about it being that my niece two grand nieces are Muslim as are my barber my book keeper and several friends.
You need to cop on and calm down

Wow,thats a whole list of I've got Muslim friends.

What is it that offends you?

dennispenn

Grayson wrote: »

You need to get off brietbart and those dodgy facebook groups.

I don't have a Facebook account.

I might have only once read a Breitbart page.

The more you understand about the permanently offended, the more you will understand.

DChancer

dennispenn wrote: »

DChancer wrote: »

So you want to ban Islam?
Are you for real?

Do you think that I am kidding?

Is Islam compatible with Western society?

I've a feeling that you know very little about It and it's teachings. Islam will eat itself up when It conquers the world. Look for ancient map's of Islamic countries,then compare it to modern day maps.

I know plenty about it being that my niece two grand nieces are Muslim as are my barber my book keeper and several friends.
You need to cop on and calm down

DChancer

dennispenn wrote: »

fxotoole wrote: »

Which sect of Islam?

Islam. The whole lot of it is incompatible with the western world.

That's just plain silly posting

dennispenn

DChancer wrote: »

So you want to ban Islam?
Are you for real?

Do you think that I am kidding?

Is Islam compatible with Western society?

I've a feeling that you know very little about It and it's teachings. Islam will eat itself up when It conquers the world. Look for ancient map's of Islamic countries,then compare it to modern day maps.

Grayson

dennispenn wrote: »

Islam. The whole lot of it is incompatible with the western world.

You need to get off brietbart and those dodgy facebook groups.

dennispenn

fxotoole wrote: »

Which sect of Islam?

Islam. The whole lot of it is incompatible with the western world.

Grayson

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Pure comparison in fairness.
The whole point of a Halloween mask to disguise ones true identity.
For kids

Something rather disquieting about an adult in a mask.

Why not ban all face coverings unless its a piece of safety equipment?
I'd be ok with that.

To cover your face is more than an expression of identity or religious association. If the latter wear a hijab. It will signify you are Muslim.
To wear a burka indicates a rejection of the world outside. A rejection of you, your culture.

Loads of adults get dressed up for halloween.

As for the bolded bit, are you saying that when a Saudi woman wears a hijab she's rejecting Saudi culture? Because that's a bit mad.

I'm not going to attempt to explain why a woman wears a Burka. I'm sure there's many reasons and it can vary from woman to woman. I'm also sure it probably doesn't have anything to do with a rejection of themselves. Maybe for one or two but not most.
The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that neither you nor I can speak as to why every woman who wears a burka does so.

suicide_circus

Shenshen wrote: »

fair enough

Shenshen

suicide_circus wrote: »

if you currently lived in France, Denmark or Switzerland, would you emigrate?

I would not go to live there now.

Danzy

Malayalam wrote: »

(with the strong caveat that they do not preach against the culture!!).

The Burqa debate is a proxy for this key issue.

It is one that has been lost years ago in many Mosques across Europe and with good reason to suspect in Dublin and reason to suspect lost to a greater level than most other parts of Europe, given we had the highest per capita rate of people going abroad to fight in Islamist orgs. from Europe.

In Britain, over half of Mosques are controlled by fundamentalist groups, with the % in England higher again.

It is not just back street Mosques or a rented hall on Friday, it is main Mosques, ones that cater to thousands at a time.

For many the Burqa is just a harsh symbol of that mindset, in a way it is not about wearing Religious garb at all but the mindset it represents.

Look at Didsbury Mosque in Manchester, capacity 1000, preachers there calling for armed Jihad, that is not unusual, Channel Four said it readily found extremist material in Mosques and their book stores.

Let the Burqa be, I dislike it but it is not on my radar. I would like to see places of worship that disseminate views calling for violence,repression of women, Gays, Jews, advocating criminality etc closed down.

To enforce that without fear or favour would bring parts of Britain, France, Belgium, Netherlands to civil disorder.

It still needs to be done, though everything suggests it would lead to further violence. A blind eye has been turned for too long.

When the Police and establishment in Britain did not start arresting people for calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie, even if it meant charging thousands, it lost the initiative.

It showed that views that were acceptable in the Middle East or elsewhere but which were at direct odds with Enlightenment values would have a blind eye turned, even including tens of thousands calling for the murder of a man who wrote a poor enough book.

The significance of the Rushdie affair and the response to it, is I think one of the defining moments in British history in the last century. The wrong choice was made and they will pay for it for years to come.

suicide_circus

fxotoole wrote: »

“Those who trade freedom for security will have neither” - Benjamin Franklin

good quote. the difference between America and Western Europe in this context is that The US still has a modicum of self esteem and a belief in the value of its way of life.

DChancer

dennispenn wrote: »

Cabaal wrote: »

Used to be a catholic tradition to cover your head in church if you were a women,
Many older women that attend mass still believe this

So, do you want to ban these women from wearing them or is it just muslims?

I have not seen a head scarf worn in a church since I was a little boy. And that's a long time ago.

Do I want to Ban the burka?
I couldn't have been more clearer. Absolutely,it and the other restrictive head garments have no place in Irish society. And neither has Islam for that matter.

So you want to ban Islam?
Are you for real?

fxotoole

dennispenn wrote: »

I have not seen a head scarf worn in a church since I was a little boy. And that's a long time ago.

Do I want to Ban the burka?
I couldn't have been more clearer. Absolutely,it and the other restrictive head garments have no place in Irish society. And neither has Islam for that matter.

Which sect of Islam?

suicide_circus

Shenshen wrote: »

This. We don't force people to either cover or uncover their heads, we leave the choice to them. That's why I choose to live here.

if you currently lived in France, Denmark or Switzerland, would you emigrate?

fxotoole

“Those who trade freedom for security will have neither” - Benjamin Franklin

dennispenn

Cabaal wrote: »

Used to be a catholic tradition to cover your head in church if you were a women,
Many older women that attend mass still believe this

So, do you want to ban these women from wearing them or is it just muslims?

I have not seen a head scarf worn in a church since I was a little boy. And that's a long time ago.

Do I want to Ban the burka?
I couldn't have been more clearer. Absolutely,it and the other restrictive head garments have no place in Irish society. And neither has Islam for that matter.

Shenshen

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Pure comparison in fairness.
The whole point of a Halloween mask to disguise ones true identity.
For kids

Something rather disquieting about an adult in a mask.

Why not ban all face coverings unless its a piece of safety equipment?
I'd be ok with that.

To cover your face is more than an expression of identity or religious association. If the latter wear a hijab. It will signify you are Muslim.
To wear a burka indicates a rejection of the world outside. A rejection of you, your culture.

That's an interesting way to read that. I know that a nun's habit is meant to express the same thing, a rejection of worldly affairs in favour of godly ones.

But personally, I always get a slightly different message (though by now means a better one). By hiding away in as much clothes as possible, a message is being sent to all men that the female hidden in the clothes does not trust them not to give in to their base desires and rape the female in question, should she show so much as an inch of skin. I always thought of the niqab and the burqa as deeply, deeply misandric.

Roger Hassenforder

Grayson wrote: »

Not for the women who wear it. It's part of their identity.

And if you mean our ability to identify them, well I don't see any people complaining about anything else that does it. You never see a thread where people are saying that we need to ban Halloween costumes because it harms our ability to identify people.

Seriously, on halloween we'd have 100k people dressed up, many with masks on. We don't complain about them, it's the less that 100 women who wear a burka.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like the burka. I think it's silly and stupid. But there's a lot of things I think are silly and stupid, especially religious stuff. However we can't start banning something just because we don't like it. And the only practical reason to stop women wearing it is identification. But since we're only picking on women who wear the burka and not every other potential face covering, we're picking on them because of their religion.

Pure comparison in fairness.
The whole point of a Halloween mask to disguise ones true identity.
For kids

Something rather disquieting about an adult in a mask.

Why not ban all face coverings unless its a piece of safety equipment?
I'd be ok with that.

To cover your face is more than an expression of identity or religious association. If the latter wear a hijab. It will signify you are Muslim.
To wear a burka indicates a rejection of the world outside. A rejection of you, your culture.

Shenshen

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

All visual indications of religious association should be banned for civil/public servants IMO

You're a public servant, supposed to treat everyone professionally and fairly. Religious accoutrements ( as well as anything political), might make your "customer" uncomfortable, or even antagonize them.

I would entirely agree with that. As a civil servant, you represent the state. And a state should not promote any one religion over any other, it should be entirely neutral on the subject. Consequently, so should its representatives, at least while at work.