Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

bluewolf wrote: »

Second generation is it. They didn't make the choice to move, they don't have somewhere to "go back to", they're trapped between family culture and the rest of the country.
Who has the answer, i don't, but i think more proactive positive things that they all must do, rather than things that only 50% must not do, would be a better approach. And i think it will be a lot more subtle than this one public image

Traditionally, it was the second generation, or third generation. However, we have seen a shift in those seeking immigration into Europe. There is a growing trend of immigration coming from people who do not see their original culture as being negative. They're not fleeing social/cultural problems... they're fleeing economic problems (or war). As such, we are seeing a rise in the numbers of immigrants who are not coming here for western cultural benefits.... and will want to bring their own cultural/social habits with them, and establish communities run by those habits, rather than the western culture.

This can be seen in France, and Spain. Past generations mingled with the general population, for the most part, spreading themselves around. There weren't any particularly large concentrations of Muslims in these countries compared to the local French or Spanish populations. However, in the last twenty years, we have seen these communities arise, which do enforce their own culture on the local inhabitants. It takes time but it is happening.

Western culture is weak to external influences. The belief that western culture can and will stand up to other cultures who compete within western law, is flawed. We've seen the cases across Europe where western culture is being replaced by Islamic beliefs, first on a social level, but lately, the push to bring Islamic influence into the law itself. AND not applied to the minority, but to be applied to the whole.

For there to be stability of society, there must remain a dominant primary culture which provides the main framework for the majority. There can, and are, subcultures, but there needs to be recognition that the primary culture is more important. It makes logical sense that the original and local culture should be that primary culture. Hence the push to keep western culture primary, and bringing in measures to limit the influence of subcultures.

For those who are 2nd gen immigrants, they have the choice to stay or leave (and most important, to return), depending on their cultural preferences. That is the choice for all westerners. We don't have any laws which prevent Europeans from leaving Europe. I've lived in Asia for the last decade, and will live there more, because I don't particularly want to live in Europe. Those 2nd/3rd gen have the same option that I do.

One eyed Jack

FTA69 wrote: »

Sorry I disagree with you here in a big way.

You're right of course that sexism isn't solely an Islamic concept and that women in all countries face hurdles and systemic barriers. No argument there. But if you're suggesting that those hurdles and oppressions are as explicit and severe in somewhere like Germany as they are in Morocco or Bangladesh then you're codding yourself.

In Iran, a tremendously complex place, while women are the majority in the professions ad university - they're legally obliged to wear a hijab. Women are being jailed today for heavy sentences for removing it as an act of protest. When I was on the plane out of Tehran the first thing the women did was pull off their hijabs.

In many Islamic countries the official role of women is as of wives and mothers of the nation, pigeonholed into a category due to their gender. I think feminism has huge validity the world over, but I also think this liberal tendency to try and equivocate the position of women in some Islamic societies with people here is just lunacy.

FTA69 wrote: »

My Nan would probably eyeball you for wearing a short dress as well. Wouldn't say we should ban her from Waterford though.

Conservatism isn't unique to Muslims.

I hadn’t meant to suggest that the barriers and oppression women in mainly Islamic societies are subject to isn’t more severe than the barriers and oppression faced by women in Western societies. I was making the point that’s more like your second post there, in that it’s a matter of perspective. Many women in mainly Islamic societies would equally be as likely to raise an eyebrow at Western cultural norms as their male counterparts. I’m saying that there are parallels can be drawn (even just in Ireland alone we have the women’s place in the home baked into our Constitution, same goes for blasphemy, and a few other things I can think of that would be equally comparable, but obviously not to the same degree).

My point is that this idea of women as “second class citizens” in either society is ridiculous in terms of how either society actually functions and women’s place within that society. Differences in social circumstances aren’t based upon gender, but rather based upon social class.

I’m certainly not liberal either, not even in the “classic” sense of the term that many social conservatives appear to want to apply to themselves these days so they can differentiate themselves from the more lunatic fringes on the left.

Roger Hassenforder

Intetesting short article from a Muslim women
(And a brief account of its rise In "popularity"

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/the-right-to-ban-the-veil-is-good-news-for-everybody-including-muslims/amp

"Not until recent years has the idea taken root that Muslim women are obliged by their faith to wear a veil.
It’s a sign, I think, not of assertive Islam, but of what happens when Islamists are tolerated by a western culture that’s absurdly anxious to avoid offence. This strange, unwitting collaboration between liberals and extremists has been going on for years. But at last there are signs that it is ending."

Taytoland

riffmongous wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Union flag you mean. A jack is ones that are on ships. Sashes are rarely worn nowadays by orange men. They wear collarettes mostly. Deflection is becoming a habit for you.

And I’m still very interested on exactly what forum on here you are a mod. I would assume there wasn’t any other volunteers.....

Are you happy to defend outdated and sadistic Islamic practices or just happy to have a dig at the brits again.?

Yeah I think everyone's heard that before a few times now but everyone still calls it the union jack don't they.

I'm just an ordinary poster here timmy like everyone else, if you don't like what I post either report it or get over it

Option 2 definitely, when our resident backward ideology supporters come out so strongly in favour of banning another backwards ideology it's hard to just ignore it

You tried to deflect, that's all.

Second generation is it. They didn't make the choice to move, they don't have somewhere to "go back to", they're trapped between family culture and the rest of the country.
Who has the answer, i don't, but i think more proactive positive things that they all must do, rather than things that only 50% must not do, would be a better approach. And i think it will be a lot more subtle than this one public image

Discodog wrote: »

Like I said - a disappointment. I think it works fine in the UK. I lived there for many years, sometimes with muslim neighbours. They respected me & I respected them. Same with all other religions.

The problem with your way of thinking is that it's so short-sighted. Traditionally, the first of immigrants are happy to keep their heads down, make an income and provide for their families. In the past, these people were usually fleeing persecution of one form or another and wanted the protections that western culture could provide along with the economic benefits which would allow them to work hard and to have real chance at success/prosperity.

And then the second generation comes along, grows up in a mixed environment, welcomed (to various degrees) by the western culture, but they're expected to conform to Islamic values from the familial pressures, along with the local Islamic communities. That creates confusion and resentment, especially when they visit Islamic countries and are treated neither as local muslims but also not as westerners.

Multiculturalism tends to fail on the second or third generation. And I'm a bit surprised that you haven't seen that failure in the UK, where there are violent gangs by Muslim youths, engaging in crime, or the enforcement of their own traditional cultural beliefs on to non-muslims. The Uk has been experiencing severe friction with it's past immigrants from India before the Muslims even became a major factor... and not seeing that suggests you were living/staying in rather select areas.

The so called problem is the one dreamed up by Boris, Farage etc. It was used to spread fear & resulted in Brexit. I want an Ireland that's the polar opposite of this new right wing intolerance.

The UK has been experiencing social instability from immigration long before the current wave of migration into Europe. Do some searches on the "melting pot" regarding the UK in the 80s/90s... and the concerns about the social instability and the increases in racial/religious violence. It all died down in the media during the economic boom period, but it was hardly gone from their society.

Ireland shouldn't ban anything unless it's really necessary. Banning a piece of cloth for the sake of a tiny number of people is just dumb.

Well, to relate to your Nazi comment, while we don't ban the Swastika in Ireland, the Gardai can enforce the laws regarding the incitement of hatred to force its removal. We should consider the behavior of minorities and whether their behavior does increase the risk of violence to either party.

Again, it comes down to the short vs long term view. Right now, the numbers of Muslims in Ireland is very small, but that's set to increase dramatically over the next two decades. And secondly, while Ireland doesn't have any particular dislike of Islam (or resentment), it is growing in Europe, and depending on how Ireland deals with the situation, those feelings could easily transfer to here. Not just by Irish people but also by the population of Europeans living here.

Discodog wrote: »

Like I said - a disappointment. I think it works fine in the UK.

It works fine in the UK? I'd not like to see your idea of not so fine. So lets all ignore the social problems, from street level and institutionalised racism, through riots, heavily skewed prison and social welfare populations, all the way up to mass killings that have stemmed directly from multiculturalism in the UK over the last 50 years? Now look at European nations with the smallest multicultural footprint. Compare and contrast. Sure, everywhere has social problems, but they didn't import more.

Banning a piece of cloth

It's not "just a piece of cloth", it's a public declaration of a culture that is out of step with the one it finds itself in.

I fully understand why people would like multiculturalism to work. I would love it to work too, but the evidence shows it doesn't to nearly the same degree as the hope involved thinks it will. I consider myself a realist and as such am fully aware of human frailties, tribalism, racism and general xenophobia on all sides, so I'd really rather this country didn't go down the same stupid road as others. And no, praying/hoping this time we'll somehow do it differently is beyond naive and borders on the idiotic.

Roger Hassenforder

Discodog wrote: »

I want an Ireland that's the polar opposite of this new right wing intolerance.

This "right wing intolerance" is pathetic. Like anyone that disagrees with you is a Nazi.

I want an Ireland where everybody is treated as equal. Where people integrate and immigrants assimilate, not retain barriers from the backward culture they came from.

They are here out of choice. If there are things they dont like, like how Westem people like to communicate with a face, they're free to fcuk off somewhere else.

I'm not a GAA head, but I love to see a black lad swinging a hurley.

bfa1509

Of course I would not ban burkas/hijabs. I would follow Sebastian Kurz, the austrian president. He made the very valid point that Islam is more than a religion, it is a set of political ideologies (sharia law) and that it simply could not co-exist with his own government. So he closed down seven mosques and plans to expel 40 imams from the country. And before you say "Oh, that's racist. Oh freedom of religion", come back to me in 10 years when we will have much bigger problems on our hands than people wearing burkas/hijabs.

bluewolf wrote: »

Seems like it's just the easiest option to pick on women and women's clothing and insist it's for their own good

That culture "picks on women" to varying degrees all the way up to being virtual cloistered prisoners of their sex. Gender "equality" in Islam is fundamentally very different to the idea of equality in the West. The disconnect gulf is wide and neither side seem to grasp the other. Ask any imam - no fire breathing mad mullahs required - on gender equality and you'll see what I mean. Your idea of gender equality will be totally alien to him. And it will be a him.

Roger Hassenforder

Discodog wrote: »

Very good point. The alienation that immigrants felt when they came to the UK was partially due to racism - they simply felt safer in their own communities. The ones that left these areas were often professionals. People can forgive an immigrant if he happens to be a doctor.

My kids are going to the local Catholic school.
There were a couple of Pakistani/Indian looking kids in my youngest's class.
Its near a hospital, and i reckon a good shot of them are professionals' kids. But you'd never see the mothers though, and the dads huddle together in a group outside the school gate.

However, of this "race", only one makes any effort to integrate. Ever goes/comes/hosts playdates and birthday parties, despite the invitations. Some dont even bother to "RSVP".
The "one" is Hindu.
Guess what the others are.

I've news. The racist ones may not be who you think they are...

Table Top Joe

bluewolf wrote: »

Are they going to be housebound in future? Is the prevalence a symptom of more isolated subcommunities refusing to integrate, which banning a burka will do absolutely nothing to help?

Banning it would do nothing to help integration no but how much can a woman covered in a Burka integrate now anyway?.......personally I would be in favour of banning it in the hope it would spell out loud and clear to anyone choosing Ireland to live in that that kind of nonsense isn't tolerated here, we've only just (mostly) gotten the Catholic Church off our backs we don't need a new religion enforcing more daft rules on women in this country, why on earth should we be expected to be tolerant to the intolerant?

Wibbs wrote: »

Well I consider it both wise and sensible to look to history and our neighbours in Europe and see how this failed experiment in tolerant "multiculturalism" has and is playing out and try and stop the same social problems happening here. We have enough of our own, we hardly need to be importing more on the basis of a naive political position.

The joke is the only times in history multiculturalism has worked has been where the wider society was far less tolerant, more hardline, with a large side order of xenophobia and fear and mistrust of the outsider. Where anyone was welcome so long as they adhered to the dominant culture. Any dissent was heavily frowned upon at best, crushed mercilessly at worst. The early Islamic empire one example, as was(is) China. Rome another example. If you were in, you were in, but if you acted like the "barbarian" then you were treated like one.

Like I said - a disappointment. I think it works fine in the UK. I lived there for many years, sometimes with muslim neighbours. They respected me & I respected them. Same with all other religions.

The so called problem is the one dreamed up by Boris, Farage etc. It was used to spread fear & resulted in Brexit. I want an Ireland that's the polar opposite of this new right wing intolerance.

Ireland shouldn't ban anything unless it's really necessary. Banning a piece of cloth for the sake of a tiny number of people is just dumb.

Discodog wrote: »

I actually find your posts on this subject disappointing. In all my years on Boards I would of viewed you as wise, sensible & moderate.

Well I consider it both wise and sensible to look to history and our neighbours in Europe and see how this failed experiment in tolerant "multiculturalism" has and is playing out and try and stop the same social problems happening here. We have enough of our own, we hardly need to be importing more on the basis of a naive political position.

The joke is the only times in history multiculturalism has worked has been where the wider society was far less tolerant, more hardline, with a large side order of xenophobia and fear and mistrust of the outsider. Where anyone was welcome so long as they adhered to the dominant culture. Any dissent was heavily frowned upon at best, crushed mercilessly at worst. The early Islamic empire one example, as was(is) China. Rome another example. If you were in, you were in, but if you acted like the "barbarian" then you were treated like one.

indioblack wrote: »

It must get bloody hot in there as well.

Not if worn loosely, apparently.

bluewolf wrote: »

Honestly i don't reaaally think they should be allowed but i don't think a simple banning is going to help or solve anything. Are they going to be housebound in future? Is the prevalence a symptom of more isolated subcommunities refusing to integrate, which banning a burka will do absolutely nothing to help?
Seems like it's just the easiest option to pick on women and women's clothing and insist it's for their own good

Very good point. The alienation that immigrants felt when they came to the UK was partially due to racism - they simply felt safer in their own communities. The ones that left these areas were often professionals. People can forgive an immigrant if he happens to be a doctor.

indioblack

Rezident wrote: »

Why?

Why do they make the women wear the full head and body covers so that nothing can be seen except the eyes?

It must get bloody hot in there as well.

Honestly i don't reaaally think they should be allowed but i don't think a simple banning is going to help or solve anything. Are they going to be housebound in future? Is the prevalence a symptom of more isolated subcommunities refusing to integrate, which banning a burka will do absolutely nothing to help?
Seems like it's just the easiest option to pick on women and women's clothing and insist it's for their own good

wakka12

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m genuinely not though.

The point is that they are two different societies, each function in very different ways, and in just the same way as there are circumstances where women in the West imagine they are second class citizens and there are men who imagine that they too, are second class citizens. Muslim societies really aren’t actually all that different - some women regard themselves as second class citizens, some men do too, but for the vast majority of people people living in either society it’s their way of life and it’s the way their society functions, and they’re generally content to live in their respective societies.

Second class citizen would mean more restrictive laws governing one group differently to another
Which happens many muslim women, such as not having been able to drive
Western world has no such laws
Western world treat women a lot better, it just goes without saying

Discodog wrote: »

So how would your Stazi monitor & enforce the law?

Well, now... you've lost all respect as a poster. Deal with the argument on hand and leave out the emotional Nazi references. You have yet to deal with what I have actually written, instead preferring to infer things I haven't.

Do you get banned for carrying sunglasses or just wearing them ? It would be fun when the next beast from the east arrives. Hundreds arrested for keeping out the cold :pac:

And I have clearly written about articles of clothing or imagery which encourages the danger of physical violence, and prevent any realistic integration into western society/culture. Multiculturalism has failed. Consistently. Any multicultural society with an open system, after a few years, experiences massive social/cultural friction, which generally leads to violence between cultures/religions/race.

Scroll back. Read what I have written... and discuss that.

Rezident

Why?

Why do they make the women wear the full head and body covers so that nothing can be seen except the eyes? Is it female oppression or is it an insult to most men (and many women) that assumes that if we so much as glimpse female flesh we will be driven to aggressively sexually pursue them? And then it's the woman's "fault" for dressing that way? Is that the idea?

Either way this simply has no place in civilisation. The hats are ok but the full body covers are bizarre and apparently oppressive. It's like something medieval.

What is the real reason for it, seriously?

Wibbs wrote: »

I would follow the French model. Get shot of all of it. And it's little enough to do with "wearing what they want". Their "choice" to not wear it is limited within that culture, the wearing of it is a clear cultural and political statement about that culture. We're not talking jokey tee shirt here.

Yeah I must have missed the news of radical Christians mowing down people in trucks, going on stabbing sprees, blowing themselves up in crowds and threatening violence on on anyone who questions their religious saviour. It's been a good while since Christians were doing that on any sort of level.

You can't be serious... Many of the parents quite simply don't care. They'll pressure the local schools to bend to their cultural will out of "tolerance", or they'll set up their own schools. Have you been looking at Europe over the last decades? Now I can understand the humanity involved with those who believe in the tolerance of western liberal societies, but the naivete in view is kinda crazy when it's right there in front of them played out in every single European country that has had a large influx of people from non European cultures. With the extra cultural colour you get a lot of social problems. Shoot me down in flames, but I'd really prefer if Ireland doesn't follow this same utterly stupid path just to look "tolerant". It's not too late, yet.

I'd restrict that too. Try walking into a bank wearing that.

Aye, there's some confusion on this. I'd not ban headscarves. The niqab and burkas would be the types I have issue with. The chador would be a grey area for me.

I actually find your posts on this subject disappointing. In all my years on Boards I would of viewed you as wise, sensible & moderate.

LirW

Discodog wrote: »

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

Austria did it, it banned Burqas but in order to keep it non-discriminating they banned all face covers. The thing is though that there are a lot of cyclists in the cities and winters are terribly cold, so many of them pull their scarfes up to cover mouth and noses. In the year it was brought in no Burqa was penalised (because it's not really worn) but plenty of cyclists.

Deleted User wrote: »

So you would favor banning all of it?

I certainly would.

So how would your Stazi monitor & enforce the law? Do you get banned for carrying sunglasses or just wearing them ? It would be fun when the next beast from the east arrives. Hundreds arrested for keeping out the cold :pac:

Discodog wrote: »

So would you adopt the French model ? If so then every religious symbol has to be removed from every school. Why is it dangerous to allow people to wear what they want ?

I would follow the French model. Get shot of all of it. And it's little enough to do with "wearing what they want". Their "choice" to not wear it is limited within that culture, the wearing of it is a clear cultural and political statement about that culture. We're not talking jokey tee shirt here.

Discodog wrote: »

There are some fanatical christians that are every bit as dangerous as radical muslims.

Yeah I must have missed the news of radical Christians mowing down people in trucks, going on stabbing sprees, blowing themselves up in crowds and threatening violence on on anyone who questions their religious saviour. It's been a good while since Christians were doing that on any sort of level.

If the parents know that how their child will be educated they can decide if Ireland is for them. It would naturally filter out the more radical of all religions.

You can't be serious... Many of the parents quite simply don't care. They'll pressure the local schools to bend to their cultural will out of "tolerance", or they'll set up their own schools. Have you been looking at Europe over the last decades? Now I can understand the humanity involved with those who believe in the tolerance of western liberal societies, but the naivete in view is kinda crazy when it's right there in front of them played out in every single European country that has had a large influx of people from non European cultures. With the extra cultural colour you get a lot of social problems. Shoot me down in flames, but I'd really prefer if Ireland doesn't follow this same utterly stupid path just to look "tolerant". It's not too late, yet.

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

I'd restrict that too. Try walking into a bank wearing that.

bluewolf wrote:

I'm surprised to see hijabs brought up, they're just headscarves. Irish women wore them for many years.
Some of them are really pretty looking as well!

Aye, there's some confusion on this. I'd not ban headscarves. The niqab and burkas would be the types I have issue with. The chador would be a grey area for me.

Discodog wrote: »

So we ban a garment that only a microscopic number in Ireland wear & still allow hoodies, baseball caps, balaclavas etc :rolleyes:

Except that I didn't make that statement. You're reaching. Perhaps deal with what I have written?

However, the 1,900 figure is reportedly a significant over-inflation of the initial figures released by the French secret service, who were charged with collecting this data. It originally found that only 367 women wore the burqa. This represents an even lower percentage of the population: 0.01% of the French Muslim population, and 0.00058% of the general population

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/what-is-the-burqa-and-how-many-muslim-women-actually-wear-it/

So... the population is low, so we shouldn't discuss it?

And the fact is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. I'm amazed at the short-sighted viewpoints here. They are a minority now, and likely will remain a minority, however, I have stated previously why I feel it should be banned.... perhaps take a look and deal with that?

Deleted User wrote: »

And can you estimate what percentage compared to the overall population of Muslims would behave that way? 1%, 5%, etc?

And where are they from? Their own cultural background determines the extent in which they apply those behaviors. There are many forms of Islam, and the application of different traditions. You make the case that there are many kinds of Muslims or different interpretations, but then lump them together in this post.

And? What? Comparisons with extremists in Catholicism has no relevance. We're not talking about extremists.

Radical Islam won't care, one way or another. We're not discussing those who follow radical/extreme Islam. We're talking about Islam in general.

And the fact is that the majority of Muslims coming into Europe are not seeking to embrace western culture. They're coming for economic reasons. There is no view that their own original culture is wrong... and so, why would they encourage a different view in their children, simply because they're in Ireland?

So we ban a garment that only a microscopic number in Ireland wear & still allow hoodies, baseball caps, balaclavas etc :rolleyes:

However, the 1,900 figure is reportedly a significant over-inflation of the initial figures released by the French secret service, who were charged with collecting this data. It originally found that only 367 women wore the burqa. This represents an even lower percentage of the population: 0.01% of the French Muslim population, and 0.00058% of the general population

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/what-is-the-burqa-and-how-many-muslim-women-actually-wear-it/

Discodog wrote: »

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

So you would favor banning all of it?

I certainly would.

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?