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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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Peregrine

punisher5112 wrote: »

Here is the latest colour of buses....

That's vile

Stephen15

I expecting to see maybe a slight bit of yellow but that is really awful. It looks a double decker which has been re purposed as a children's play bus.

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

That really is shocking. Might as well just let go ahead make their own livery at this rate.

The stupid thing is we're less than two weeks before launching services by Go-Ahead and the NTA are backing out of a design that was supposed to have been locked down months ago, presumably due to pressures from other parties and they have not been strong enough to hold their ground.

Despite the fact Go-Ahead services start on 5th September, they are still at this point experimenting with possible new liveries to the point that they have done up two samples it seems since they are not sure which one is going to be the best to use. That really is unbelievable.

With the botched 139 launch, the stops and now a very late livery change, serious questions continue to be raised as to how the NTA will manage the integration of services. Everything I see so far doesn't fill me with confidence that the NTA are sufficiently prepared to be able to handle the next few months in a way that will serve up the passengers the best possible experience.

MJohnston

That's horrendous - the yellow goes okay with the dark blue (although then just looks like the Maxol colours), but clashes with the teal stripe completely. Rotten. I didn't much like the original livery, but it was miles better than this.

Stevek101

Its gas this whole yellow craic was dismissed by the board of the NTA months ago. I wonder why there was a change of heart?

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

Its gas this whole yellow craic was dismissed by the board of the NTA months ago. I wonder why there was a change of heart?

External pressures I would be almost certain about. But it weakens the NTA, no doubt about it.

The problem is that when you have a transport regulator who has held firm for so long on something like this and then performs a U-Turn at the last minute, like a U-Turn in politics, it shows a weakness of leadership and decision making and it also sends a message out to the unions, operators, and other interests, that if you pressure the NTA for long enough and are persistent, you can get them to back down.

The NBRU will be looking at this thinking that if they keep up the pressure about BusConnects for example and keep at it, they can force the NTA to retreat. Dublin Bus, who are probably less than keen to integrate with Go-Ahead, may now be thinking that if there are any things they are not keen to do, particularly if it was them that forced the addition of the yellow, if they hold out long enough on those things, the NTA may concede some ground.

Of course the whole thing could be a staging post for getting something closer to the Dublin Bus livery when people draw the conclusion that the proposed hybrid livery is completely dreadful.

Qrt

punisher5112 wrote: »

Here is the latest colour of buses....

Even if the stripe was parallel to the yellow champfer (I think that's the right term)

Stephen15

I have also noticed that the full Go-Ahead Ireland logo now appears on GAI buses. In the original pictures I saw it was in a standardised NTA font. Surely the NTA can't implement this awful livery I hope it was just a case of them testing the water and not something that's actually going to be done.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

I have also noticed that the full Go-Ahead Ireland logo now appears on GAI buses. In the original pictures I saw it was in a standardised NTA font. Surely the NTA can't implement this awful livery I hope it was just a case of them testing the water and not something that's actually going to be done.

I've heard from a very good source the yellow has now been signed off and will be going ahead no matter what, although I haven't heard anything concrete as to what the livery with the yellow would look like. The first time I saw any image of it was when it was posted on this thread! I'm just hoping there is indeed a second option as mentioned in the image as it can't be any worse.

As for the Go-Ahead logo, that was a change which was agreed to a little while back that operators can use their full logo rather than just their name - I have no issue with that at all.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

As for the Go-Ahead logo, that was a change which was agreed to a little while back that operators can use their full logo rather than just their name - I have no issue with that at all.

I don't have a problem with that as such but my guess would be that it is something which the NTA are doing to allow to try and get DB on board with the idea of the common livery.

What the NTA could have done is proposed an all blue livery and allow operators to make their own small adjustments to it similar to what used to be the case with TFL. Yes it's not ideal but it's better than having GAI and DB operating in two completely different liveries.

Cookie_Monster

You know, I actually like it. So horrid it's gone through vile and out the other side...

john boye

I actually think it might be saveable ish. It only needs a bit of yellow on the front, maybe from around the destination board upwards and have it come around onto the front top corner and then paint one of the stripes yellow too.

KD345

devnull wrote: »

I've heard from a very good source the yellow has now been signed off and will be going ahead no matter what, although I haven't heard anything concrete as to what the livery with the yellow would look like. The first time I saw any image of it was when it was posted on this thread! I'm just hoping there is indeed a second option as mentioned in the image as it can't be any worse.

As for the Go-Ahead logo, that was a change which was agreed to a little while back that operators can use their full logo rather than just their name - I have no issue with that at all.

I think the NTA came under pressure from disability groups about the use of dark blue, particularly at the front of the vehicle. Dublin Bus have spent a lot of time working with such groups over the years. Things like the yellow hand rails, day glo scrolls and braille on stops are all examples of how things have improved.

The design of the revised livery I saw looked better than the example posted here. There is more yelllow and it runs in the same direction/style as the green and blue stripes. I’m hoping that is the version 2 mentioned.

Cookie_Monster

KD345 wrote: »

I think the NTA came under pressure from disability groups about the use of dark blue, particularly at the front of the vehicle. Dublin Bus have spent a lot of time working with such groups over the years. Things like the yellow hand rails, day glo scrolls and braille on stops are all examples of how things have improved.

IF that's actually a valid thing why not just wrap the bus in high vis. Sure we're constantly being told it's the only way people can ever see cyclists etc
Take it to the logical conclusion instead of messing about halfway

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

I think the NTA came under pressure from disability groups about the use of dark blue, particularly at the front of the vehicle. Dublin Bus have spent a lot of time working with such groups over the years. Things like the yellow hand rails, day glo scrolls and braille on stops are all examples of how things have improved.

I certainly understand the points that are being made in relation to yellow being more visible, it certainly is, and I can understand the points being made by disabled groups, but if disabled groups was the utmost of this public service operators concerns rather than commercial interests, they could just hand the livery over to the NTA and be done with it. Have they offered this?

It's a bit rich if DB play the livery is bad because disabled people have trouble seeing it, when they themselves have a darker commercial livery that they clearly see no problem with. If they felt that strongly about dark front of vehicles and the impact on the disabled they wouldn't have any themselves. It just seems a conviennent stick to beat a livery with that they never wanted to adopt in the first place.

The design of the revised livery I saw looked better than the example posted here. There is more yelllow and it runs in the same direction/style as the green and blue stripes. I’m hoping that is the version 2 mentioned.

To be fair I see there is merit in having some yellow on the vehicles, but if we are going to go to this half-way house so to speak between the DB and GA livery, the NTA must now enforce DB to paint their vehicles in such livery since they clearly have met them half way now.

TallGlass

That's is just awful...

It looks like someone in the paint shop ran out of paint or maybe they have a load of yellow left over! Maybe someone forgot to put the correct color over the yellow in photoshop and it could be a case of the below.

th?id=OIP.YtS8PCKQKTgOphhngl3FlQHaHa

Either change them or keep them yellow. Personally, the yellow is fine as it is.

Stephen15

TallGlass wrote: »

Either change them or keep them yellow. Personally, the yellow is fine as it is.

DB wouldn't hand over their livery to the NTA that's why they had to come up with a new one.

dfx-

It's not the worst livery I've ever seen (though it's bad), the NTA survey candidates are worse and Belfast's white and pink monstrosity is the worst.

Where DB blame comes into it is another thing. Next they'll be blamed for the vending machine in Ballymount not working. Clearly an underground NBRU plot.

Yer Da sells Avon

I think it would look better if the yellow was just on the front of the bus. It would still be a bit jarring and ugly, but at least it would be a utilitarian sort of ugliness. If the yellow is there solely to serve a purpose (i.e. visibility), then attempting to integrate it with the rest of the livery isn't necessary.

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

It's not the worst livery I've ever seen (though it's bad), the NTA survey candidates are worse and Belfast's white and pink monstrosity is the worst.

The Glider livery is pretty bad too

dublinman1990

Oh merciful lord. I don't like that livery at all. I'm honestly laughed at this attempt as it looks absolutely horrible.

I definitely prefer the blue, teal & white a lot more now as it looks like a charm compared to this joke of an attempt.

But I would like to see option 2 of the livery to give another opinion.

Tickityboo

How many buses have already been resprayed in the blue livery?
They will have to be changed again!!
Obviously wasting money is no problem to the N.T.A. what a ****ing joke

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

It's not the worst livery I've ever seen (though it's bad), the NTA survey candidates are worse and Belfast's white and pink monstrosity is the worst.

Where DB blame comes into it is another thing. Next they'll be blamed for the vending machine in Ballymount not working. Clearly an underground NBRU plot.

Well said.

There appears to be a stream of consciousness within this thread,that sees a Bus Atha Cliath managerial hit squad,daubing yella paint over anything that moves in Ballymount Blue.

The reality,may be a bit more prosaic.

Bus Atha Cliath has stated it's position on Livery going forward.
The Chairman of BAC's board laid this out before the Oireachtas Committee on Transport and the NTA,and moved on from that.

The decisions taken at the outset by the NTA,and now being revisited piecemeal,are totally within the remit of the NTA itself and nobody else.

By far and away the most relevant and somewhat disturbing point being made is how Bus Atha Cliath,since it's inception has had a very clear and comprehensive policy of consultation with virtually every Disability representative body in the State.

This consultation has been regular,and covers more than simply the design of the vehicle.

What has surprised and disappointed these representative bodies is how the NTA,having taken over the responsibility for Public Transport Provision,rather spectacularly failed to retain the close relationship with these representative groups.

It will,no doubt,take several FoI requests to learn the eventual cost of attempting to put this error of judgement to rights,but even the process of recoating the interior poles and grabrails will cost a significant additional sum.

Whether or not the NTA sees it's remit as the evisceration of Bus Atha Cliath,it might be better served by taking note of the elements of long-standing BAC policies which have quietly,but effectively worked,for the more "0ff-grid" groups in our society.

What is more concerning to me,is the fact that much of what the Authority is now abandoning is the rather basic ABC of service provision,quite what the policy will be for the XY & Z is another matter altogether ?

devnull

Whatever we think of the livery however, I think one thing that we all agree on that spending such money on changing something that has been locked down ages ago is going to be an expensive lesson and we should not be at such a late stage before Go-Ahead starting where these things are not settled, at this stage serious questions are beginning to come up about the NTA's ability to deliver this project and the required level of integration and late U-Turns are not a good sign. This should have all been sorted long ago and it remains to be seen if the NTA are able to properly answer the various other questions about intergration matters and without some kind of last minute fudge.

AlekSmart wrote: »

By far and away the most relevant and somewhat disturbing point being made is how Bus Atha Cliath,since it's inception has had a very clear and comprehensive policy of consultation with virtually every Disability representative body in the State.

This consultation has been regular,and covers more than simply the design of the vehicle.

What has surprised and disappointed these representative bodies is how the NTA,having taken over the responsibility for Public Transport Provision,rather spectacularly failed to retain the close relationship with these representative groups.

It will,no doubt,take several FoI requests to learn the eventual cost of attempting to put this error of judgement to rights,but even the process of recoating the interior poles and grabrails will cost a significant additional sum.

Whether or not the NTA sees it's remit as the evisceration of Bus Atha Cliath,it might be better served by taking note of the elements of long-standing BAC policies which have quietly,but effectively worked,for the more "0ff-grid" groups in our society.

Would this be the same Dublin Bus that has painted vehicles for it's Airlink service in a colour on the front of the bus that is much darker than the blue being used on the NTA livery and has held that livery for approx 3,500 days or 10 years, however you want to put it, without thinking about how that effects the disabled in our society?

Dublin Bus may well do a lot of good work with such groups and I don't doubt that at all, I've seen it first hand and they should be commended for that. However it's a bit rich if they come out and say non bright, darker colours are bad on the front of the bus, when they've painted vehicles in such colour themselves and saw no problem with it for the last 10 years themselves.

As I said before, Dublin Bus did not want this livery and whilst the impact on disabled people certainly is a factor, I do not believe that it is the only one at play here. It's also about image and brand protection as well. If not, I look forward to seeing the new bright fronted Airlink livery in the next few months. I won't hold my breath.

It'll be interesting to see what Bus Eireann does, since surely it should now be very very easy to get them to change from a front of virtually of majority white on the front, since being a sister company of Dublin Bus I'm sure that they would have view in relation to the front end needing to be bright for the kind of groups that we have talked about. They wouldn't say they have to keep the white would they? I mean, it isn't about brands is it? :rolleyes:

GM228

KD345 wrote: »

I think the NTA came under pressure from disability groups about the use of dark blue, particularly at the front of the vehicle. Dublin Bus have spent a lot of time working with such groups over the years. Things like the yellow hand rails, day glo scrolls and braille on stops are all examples of how things have improved.

First thing which came to mind (as pointed out by Devnull) is DBs Airlink livery. It is darker than the GA blue livery, wonder if any groups made their concerns known to DB about it?

Contrasting handrails, destination boards etc are no thanks to DB or any working relationship with disability groups, they are a result of a legally mandated standard set by the EU, and before that under adopted UN ECE Regulations from 1958, the EU adopted them long before DB even existed.

AlekSmart wrote: »

By far and away the most relevant and somewhat disturbing point being made is how Bus Atha Cliath,since it's inception has had a very clear and comprehensive policy of consultation with virtually every Disability representative body in the State.

This consultation has been regular,and covers more than simply the design of the vehicle.

What has surprised and disappointed these representative bodies is how the NTA,having taken over the responsibility for Public Transport Provision,rather spectacularly failed to retain the close relationship with these representative groups.

How to you know the NTA has not involved various disability groups? My understanding is they have worked with and sought submissions from various groups for various projects and reports such as for example their Statement of Strategy.

Also the last major consultation between DB and the various disability groups was in 2005 when the Accessibility Guidelines Standard Series 2 was agreed, it was not just DB though, it was various disability groups, transport operators (state and private) and Government departments - the NTA did not exist at the time.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It will,no doubt,take several FoI requests to learn the eventual cost of attempting to put this error of judgement to rights,but even the process of recoating the interior poles and grabrails will cost a significant additional sum.

What is to say the grab rails need to be repainted?

They just need to contrast in comparison to what is adjacent to them, whilst the grey handrails in the new GA buses is poor IMO they do contrast with the dark blue seats and that is all that DB (and other operators and disability groups) ever agreed to - to have contrasting handrails, mind you I'm not so sure they contrast with the stairwells.

LuckyLloyd

Nah devnull, this is anti Dublin Bus nonsense from you tbh. Bear in mind that the airlink service is the only regular predictable transport option to the airport that facilitates disabled people. Aircoach doesn't accommodate such passengers. A much simpler perspective here is that people will just recognise the Go Ahead buses for the services they are offering. There'll be no confusion as to what's happening, who the buses are, who's running them. That's a good thing for the end passenger. This is competition. Let's embrace it.

devnull

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nah devnull, this is anti Dublin Bus nonsense from you tbh. Bear in mind that the airlink service is the only regular predictable transport option to the airport that facilitates disabled people. Aircoach doesn't accommodate such passengers.

We were talking about the liveries of buses and the fact is that for the last 10 years or so, Dublin Bus has saw no problem to using a dark non bright front on a vehicle so it's a bit rich if they complain that dark liveries are bad when they are not practising what the preach.

Aircoach accommodates disabled passengers pretty much the same way as any coach operator does in relation to needing to having to book in advance, Bus Eireann have an almost identical policy in this regard, a coach is not a bus at the end of the day, it's different kind of vehicle.

A much simpler perspective here is that people will just recognise the Go Ahead buses for the services they are offering. There'll be no confusion as to what's happening, who the buses are, who's running them. That's a good thing for the end passenger. This is competition. Let's embrace it.

And everybody wants uniformity and if Dublin Bus were so concerned with it they could hand over the livery and we'd all live happily ever after. Have you asked them why they have not done so? What did they say?

Technocentral

Any advantages of Go Ahead over DB for the commuter?

Here we go

Technocentral wrote: »

Any advantages of Go Ahead over DB for the commuter?

Don’t think so think the goal is for more players to come into the market and tender against each other for routes and hopefully drive down cost to the tax payer not for them to run the same route against each other so won’t be a price war

Technocentral

Nothing to get excited about so. Was hoping for more frequency Cheers.