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Chapter 2 - Finding Nemo

Swashbuckler

2018 - Chapter One: The Day That Never Comes - Post 1 to 634

2019 - Chapter Two: Finding Nemo - Post 635 onwards

Original Post:
I've decided to set up one of these in the hope that every now and then someone will come along and in their good nature, answer one of my many questions about my training. I find I've been posting a lot of questions in the Random Running thread so maybe this is a better way of going about it.

Background
36 year old male. Been running for 7 years but only started properly focusing my training since January. Only learned what a tempo, LSR etc. were this year! Previous to that I just went out most days and ran 6 miles at as fast as I could manage. No direction or focus to my training. Had ran some half marathons and mixed in circuit training. But this year I really fell in love with running. Thanks to advice from people on here and chatting to some advanced runners I've met at many races this year I've manage to see significant improvements.

PB's;
5k - 18:22 - Parkrun (2017)
10k - 37:44 - Run Killarney (2017)
Half Marathon: 1:31:35 Charleville (2012). Most recent Half was in June - Half Thru the Heart which I did in 1:33. Extremely tough course and the distance was a little short.

Short to Medium term targets (over the next ~10 months);
5k - Sub 18
10k - Sub 37
Half Marathon - Sub 1:30

Long term targets/dreams;
5k - Sub 17
10k - Sub 35
Run my first Full Marathon (maybe by end of next year).
Run a really good Full Marathon.

Myself and my wife have a baby on the way so I'd say the training could be impacted for a while but I really hope I can keep it up to the same level.

I generally do two/three sessions a week (mix of intervals and tempo), one long run and the rest easy runs. Train 5-6 times a week with one day off.

I do all my Mon-Fri training within my one hour lunch break. LSR is either at the weekend or in the morning before work.

I know I should probably join a club. I would love to but we'll see how life changes once baby arrives. Even if I could do one session a week with a club I think it would be of benefit.

Last weeks training;
Mon: 7 miles steady/progressive starting at 7min/mile and finishing at 6:30min/mile. I'm thinking this run isn't of much benefit as it's in no mans land pacewise for me?
Tues: 5 x 1 mile intervals. Intervals at 5:50min/mile average with 3min recovery between.
Wednesday: 10k easy/recovery @ 7:30min/mile. Not sure if this should be slower but I read that it's bad to have easy and LSR paces the same i.e. too much running at the slow pace. The 7:30 pace felt easy.
Thursday: 15 mile LSR @ 8min/mile. Total time: 2 hours.
Friday: 4 mile recovery jog @ 8:50 min/mile.
Saturday: Parkrun 5k - 18:22.
Sunday: Rest

Probably overdid it a bit last week. Not sure to be honest but I feel good. I'm still learning. I'll be giving up the Parkruns in a couple of weeks for a while so I wanted to run a couple of them pretty hard to end up on a good note.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I'm looking to improve and still relatively new to proper training so I'm willing to take any advice on board.

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Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

I've always been instructed to slowly jog during recoveries, keep the legs moving a little, keep the aerobic system moving a little but at the same time, it allows an actual recovery to take place. L has been clear with me in the past on that, shuffle along during the recovery as slow as you like but not down to walking pace.

Most of what you posted are probably along the lines of what I thought. Just I've seen a few sessions on Strava lately where people are pretty active (decent enough pace) between some hard paces (what I'd consider quicker than tempo). I've also had a couple of sessions myself lately were a more steady recovery pace was prescribed.

But mostly in the 5k block of speedy stuff I've struggled to maintain a jog in some cases and was down to a walk. It had me questioning was I overstretching a little even though the actual fast paced section was manageable.

Just got me wondering should more sessions have a steady ish recovery.

Cheers everyone.

Testosterscone

I think I know the comment you are referring to. There is just one caveat from strava. Shorter the recovery time between the reps the less accurate that pace will be and usually errs on the side of fast as you are decelerating.

For me personally recoveries are as specific as the sessions themselves. I don't always prescribe this as usually look at how a runner deals with these week by week and only pipe up if I feel they need a change.

If the role of the session is tempo stuff then HR is a major component of the session and as such an active recovery is essential to keep the heart rate up and away from full recovery. These types of session are influencing energy pathways and as such the aerobic element is vital

In quicker than Vo2 max type sessions (faster than 3k pace) biomechanical efficiencies are the main focus so full recoveries can be more preferable.

Ideally with 5k/10 session's it would be an active recovery where possible however sometimes this will depend on the person, they might not always be able to sustain the session so adapt it but ultimately would be working towards active recoveries

Given the nature of marathon training though I would say 95% of the recoveries I would prescribe here would be active to steady as the majority of sessions would be slower than 5k pace and the role energy pathways and muscle fueling in marathon running means these will be the primary focus of training.

dublin runner

Don't worry, you'll evenutally master the art of making walking pace look like running!

It's all in the arm movement and lifting the knees. A difficult one to hone but one that is worth the effort and time!

Swashbuckler

Great info to have L thanks. Specifically breaking it up into VO2max, 5k/10k, tempo, marathon recoveries. Very helpful. Cheers.

AuldManKing

Good discussion.

I've been instructed by L to easy jog during recoveries and I think this has other benefits for me, especially in Marathon training.

While doing longer repeats, you're waiting for the finish, you can see it in the distance, you finish the rep and take a well earned walk break.
"eerrr, no - what are you doing" - My body was becoming accustomed to these breaks.

Recently I'm doing my recoveries at a decent clip (7:50-8:3x's) for the longer reps and I'm finding a huge difference in perceived fitness as a result.
At the start it was difficult to do it - my body was calling out to stop, but now it feels good and after about 5-10 seconds of toughness the pace feels like 11 min/miles when its actually 8-9.

I think this will also help with the mental side of running (especially mine as I'm psychotic) when things get tough.

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

While doing longer repeats, you're waiting for the finish, you can see it in the distance, you finish the rep and take a well earned walk break. "eerrr, no - what are you doing" - My body was becoming accustomed to these breaks.

And that's exactly what I was worried about happening. Getting into the habit of taking these walking breaks. All well and good if it's meant to be a walk but I'd prefer to save the walking for when I should be walking!

ariana`

Great question P and great replies.

Good luck in the race tonight (i think

Swashbuckler

ariana` wrote:

Good luck in the race tonight (i think )!

Thanks a mill. This'll be a fun report

hot buttered scones

Great results last night, well done!

On the subject of recoveries I would always aim to jog them, but it doesn't always work out that way. L. has told me not to worry at times, and that the ability to run them would come when my strength/endurance. Sometimes I end end up walking the beginning, then breaking into a jog - usually after a few reps though. I used to think that maybe I was running the reps too fast to be able to properly jog the recoveries, and perhaps I was right, but I think the opposite can also be true - if I run the first few recoveries too fast, then I can struggle to hit the paces on the later reps and then struggle to jog the recoveries for later reps. Slowing down to proper recovery pace (i.e much slower than easy pace) made a significant change to how I was able to handle the sessions - that's for the shorter, faster stuff approaching V02 max pace anyway. For threshold/Lt type longer reps, I always feel I get more out of the session if I can run the recoveries at the slower end of easy pace if possible. I know I'm getting fitter not when I can run at the prescribed pace for the reps, but when I can properly run the recoveries. Does that make sense?

Swashbuckler

That pretty much sounds exactly how I felt and my approach. Especially for the faster stuff. Jog the first few recoveries and then after a few I'd be walking the first 20s and trying to jog the rest of the recovery. Interesting to see different people's views and experiences on this.

ThebitterLemon

Is it some State secret or are you just shy? ðŸ˜

TbL

Murph_D

Very long recovery walk, possibly.

Swashbuckler

Monday - Easy 7M at 7.59 followed by strides
Running is a strange sport. After feeling absolutely wrecked last week I felt phenomenal on this run. Was raring to go. Enjoyed it immensely.

Tuesday - 12x300m Off 60s targeting 58s per rep.
Running is a strange sport. Haha. This was tough.. Had an early start and the day was warm so I got a bit of a jolt.
I had expected to find this one a little tough with the pace. The focus has slightly shifted lately towards Charleville specific training but still including some faster stuff but this was on the fast end of fast so nice and zippy to wake up the legs and inject a bit of pace. The splits were a tiny bit all over the shop as I found it tricky to settle into the groove. Still loved it though.
Splits were 64/54/58/54/57/56/58/57/61/58/59
Some shocking standard deviation there!

Recoveries were mostly between 8-9 min/mile pace with the last few walking for 30s.
Yeah this one was tough and I worked for it. This is always a session I find makes me work hard. Always feel great after tho.

Wednesday - Easy 7M at 8. 22
Slowed it down as legs were very tired. Kept it sensible.

Thursday - Easy 4M at 8.04
When I looked at my plan after this was meant to be a shakeout so I ran it too fast but no harm. Legs felt OK.

Friday - Race Day. Churchtown 5M report to follow. A fun auld day at the races.

Saturday - Easy 15M
Best ive felt on my long run in weeks. Weird isn't it. You'd think after a very hard effort in a race the night before I'd be wrecked but I think the slight drop in mileage this week plus the fact the legs hadn't realised they had been in a race yet meant this run was so enjoyable. I could've gone on happily enough beyond 15 or even picked up the pace. Beautiful sunrise too. I was up fine and early for this one do. Nice fresh morning.

Very good week and the race went well.. Don't want any spoilers haha. Total mileage for the week was 48.2 miles. Not too bad for a race week.

hot buttered scones

Those long runs after races will do wonders for your endurance. That's two great days right there that'll stand to you in Charleville.

skyblue46

It must be a long race report. Any chance you could do a podcast that I could listen to on tomorrow's run?

Swashbuckler

Churchtown 5M Race Report

So Friday was race day. A race I never really had on my agenda until one of the club lads mentioned the wife of one of the lads was on the organizing committee. Spoke to Luke and it fitted in nicely with the plan for Charleville so without much thought I had a five miler on the horizon. My 12th race this year I think. Haven't run many five milers and pb comes from New Years Day. 30.05 or something around that. A relatively soft PB compared to where I'm at now to be honest.

This race crept up on me which was a good thing. I hadn't really thought about it much and wasn't particularly nervous yesterday as I have been before some races like Limerick Half or Borrisoleigh 5k. Ate well and plenty of water the day before and the day of. Felt freshish which was a surprise after last week's exploits and the fact I'm in the middle of a hard half marathon block. Had a great night sleep and woke in great form. All the stars aligning. Haha.

Weird running a race on a Friday evening. I'm used to hitting the road for kerry straight after work but this time I was heading towards Churchtown. Was lashing rain in Limerick but when I hit Churchtown the weather was ideal for running. Met up with the Limerick AC lads, got my number and headed off for a warmup. Was a nice mix of club runners there from all around. Not a huge turnout but respectable. Around 200. Saw the winner straight away. Haha. Any time I see Niall Shanahan turn up at a race it's safe to assume he's winning. Turns out he ran it in 25.42ish. A new course record. Anyway I headed to the start line with the lads and got "in the zone". Still very relaxed which is unlike me. About now I'm usually dreading the pain ahead but something was different today. I felt good. Felt no pressure. As always, Luke's words of advice in my head. Countdown from five and off we went.

I had looked at the profile before the race and one of my clubmates had run it a few times before so he gave me the lowdown. Some nasty hills and drags. Very fast first and last miles. So I knew what to expect.

The first mile was very very fast. Big downhill and relatively flat. I just went with it. A group of about 8 of us split off pretty quickly. By eight I mean 4 and 4. Nialls group of four was clearly the elite group for the day. Then there was my group of four. The sub elites. Haha. I decided to just go with it for the first mile. Go by feel. Run the downhill. Don't be overly conservative and run hard but not redlining. By the end of mile one Nialls group was still in sight which was a little worrying. When you're still in sight of the guy who's gonna run in the 25's you start to worry haha. But to be honest I knew there was tougher sections ahead and this mile was just a gift. First mile clocked at 5.39. Happy days. Nothing outrageous and helped along mostly by the downhill section. I was sitting in nicely with limerick ac clubmate and the two others were a bit ahead but within touch. The elites had pulled away a bit. We were fighting it out for fifth at best.

I knew what was coming next. The steepest hill on the course but not too long. Luke's words ringing in my ears telling me I'm strong on those lumpy routes haha. So we hit the hill and my pace took a dip but not as much of a dip as the other lads. Maybe Luke is right! I passed my Limerick AC buddy and closed the gap on the other two lads. What I liked about this course was every uphill was rewarded with a downhill. So we hit the downhill and the two ahead opened the gap. There's a knack to this downhill running. More on that later. I was managing to stay ahead of my Limerick AC mate but the two ahead were managing to pull away a bit. Strong runners for sure. Mile 2 clocked at 6.04. Given that stinger of a hill I wasn't too displeased. To be honest I wasn't really overly concerned with my time in this race. I figured I wanted to get myself in the mix and test myself a bit on see what way the race went, see if I could learn anything. I guess I wanted to race this one as opposed to think about times. In saying that, my Limerick AC buddy was keeping me honest. And the two lads ahead were great targets. I knew some more big hills and drags were coming and I figured, judging from the first hill, that I had enough in me to do some damage there.

Mile 3 started with a downhill and the two lads pulled away a bit more. Another big hill on the way though. Working a little at this stage. Nothing easy about this. A good honest run so far mainly due to the fact of myself and my buddy keeping each other honest. We hit the uphill and my pace took a slight dip as expected but as before, not as much as the other lads. I had pulled away from my buddy and was closing on the lad ahead. Just before the peak of the hill I passed him. Mile 3 clocked at 6.08. No biggie. I knew the hill had slowed me a bit.

As with the previous hill we now had the downhill reward. I was determined not to let him pass me and he didnt. I pushed on. By now we were in mile 4 and the worst drag of the route was ahead. About 1200m of constant drag. The Mooreabbey guy was a decent bit ahead but I was so determined to make the most of the hill. I really hate the fact I'm good on hills. Haha. This is one of the benefits of running a club organised and club supported race like this. Surrounded by strong runners throughout and for me, Mooreabbey guy was my target. We hit the long hard drag. I was patient and didn't go all out. No point in blowing up too early. Over the course of the drag I managed to close up on him to the point that when we reached the end of mile 4 I was level. Would've been better to have been past him. After looking back at my pace profile since the race my pace constantly improved on that hill. That's never happened before. I got constantly faster on the hill which probably shows my determination to catch him. He was so strong on the downhills I fully expected him to pull ahead on the next downhill. Mile 4 clocked at 6.10. It was a tough mile.

We now hit our downhill reward and low and behold he pulled ahead. He had such great technique on the downhill. It would've been a joy to watch if I wasn't in so much pain. Haha. Forgot to mention despite all my tales of chasing people and targets etc I was working hard by now.
So the last mile starts with a downhill, slight drag and then another big downhill to the finish. He was slightly ahead of me but I'd managed to stay in touch on the downhill. By now I was doubting myself a little. I was in the position I often daydream about. Side by side with someone a good bit from the line. What to do. Internal dialogue going on. This is it Paul. You wanted to get into these positions. What are you gonna do? I've often sat on the couch watching YouTube videos of famous races and runners. Mostly 1500m/5k/10k stuff. Some of those famous kicks on the last laps. It's why I love the shorter stuff. The tactics on those final laps. I just find it so intriguing. Not being overly dramatic, im under no illusions of where I'm at and the level those guys are at. But still. It's very easy sit on a couch and dream about being in these battles. It's a different story running four very hard miles and still being up for a fight. I decided today was the day for that fight. Don't get me wrong. It took a lot of convincing and arguing with myself.
Anyway back on topic...... We hit the end of the downhill and into the slight drag before the final downhill to the finish. About 800m to go. It's hard to convince yourself to go this early. So much road left but I had worked it out in my head. If I stay level with him then he's gonna beat me on the downhill finish. Simple as that. This isn't some lad who's only getting into running. He's a serious runner. I have to pass him and make it count. So we hit the uphill and I went for it. I managed to push past on the drag. He responded but I responded harder . Gritting my teeth I'm not easing off. Keep going Paul. Keep pushing. I knew I needed a big gap before we hit the downhill so I left it all out there. We reached the end of the drag and I had pulled ahead by a decent amount. I kicked harder. Kept pushing. Last 400m.looked over my shoulder. I can see him but it's a big gap. I motored on. Finished very strong and he didn't get near me again. The finishing pic is not a pretty sight. Haha. Crossed the line in 29.23 with a last mile of 5.22. Turns out I finished 5th. Top in the M35 category and 30 quid for my troubles. I should mention the Mooreabbey lad I finished ahead of is in his 50s. Unreal runner.

Took a few mins to recover. Was delighted with my effort. The time is good but I was more pleased with my decision making and effort level. It was a good honest run. We just missed out on the team prize. Pipped by Mooreabbey Milers.

Waited for the club lads to cross and touched base with a few others. Met Niall who had broken the course record. Went for some delightful sandwiches although I couldn't stomach many. Amazing spread. Such a well organised race. I must say I've noticed this year that the races organised by clubs are a level above any others. The best races I've run this year were club organised. I'll be doing more of them from now on.

Must say I really enjoyed this race. It's up there with Ennis as one of my best executed races. All the decisions I made I'm happy with. No regrets and I left it all out there. Roll on Charleville.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

It must be a long race report. Any chance you could do a podcast that I could listen to on tomorrow's run?

15M run, feed baby, paint the decking twice, dinner,...... Report.... Busy day!

ReeReeG

That's amazing running, and such a great report! Congrats

ThebitterLemon

That's savage racing, great stuff on the 1st in the "younger auld lad" category.

You're flying, brilliant last mile

Well done

TbL

skyblue46

Ah it was worth waiting for! I have to admit I had looked up the results but the devil sure is in the detail. Great racing!

Murph_D

Congrats, terrific racing.

Duanington

That's a fantastic report and performance, P - loved the fight in the belly towards the end, well done

Bluesquare

Well done -great race super report !

Wubble Wubble

Great report and performance there P. Loving the bit about internal dialogue. I have that going on constantly, especially in the longer races!

MY BAD

Great report and performance. Well done Swashbuckler

Swashbuckler

Wubble Wubble wrote:

Great report and performance there P. Loving the bit about internal dialogue. I have that going on constantly, especially in the longer races!

God help me if I'm ever racing anyone who reads these reports coz they'll know exactly where I'm at mentally haha.

OOnegative

Superb stuff as always sir, great racing & report.

Kellygirl

Brilliant report and brilliant racing. Well done.

AuldManKing

Super work - great report.

I'm just happy that I still have a PB that you haven't got near! - you must run some flat races soon

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

I'm just happy that I still have a PB that you haven't got near! - you must run some flat races soon

Meant to ask what's yours?

You'll have a few on me soon. 10 mile for sure