Should we protest against the pope's visit?

work wrote: »

Long post on Whataboutery. Yes other groups have questions to answer and should be pursued BUT the pope is here now and it is his group that carried out the crimrs++++++ and are covering it up. Let's deal with the leader and guilty group and then the complicit enablers.

When though?

I haven't heard any suggestion of investigating the other people who were complicit in hiding the abuse. Fact is, any thread on boards (or in the media) leans heavily where the blame is placed firmly on the Catholic Church (and Catholics).

This is simply an excuse for BS. It's about pissing on the interests of Catholics who are interested in seeing the Pope, so that the protesters can feel all righteous about themselves.

I highly doubt most people who are interested in protesting here, actually spend a minute thought the remainder of the year regarding protesting, raising awareness etc (beyond railing at the injustice of it all on boards).

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Two threads about Frank you're thread banned off the other one. So you have no context. It's not whataboutery it's relevant to a claim made about Frank being genuine and humble.

You're not doing too well on here today. Not being able to give consistent (if any) answers and contradicting yourself within a few posts.

I think paedo-protecting and paedo-loving guards etc. and any of their paedo-loving supporters have serious questions to answer. And they are mainly all here and based in the state. Should be easier to nab them.

Once you have them, then you'll have their evidence on what they knew and who they protected. Then you can convict the physical perpetrators - be they in clergy or whatever.

Donald Trump wrote:

You're not doing too well on here today. Not being able to give consistent (if any) answers and contradicting yourself within a few posts.

Feel free to point out any inconsistent comments I made or contradictions. All i'm seeing from you and one other is personal slights and baiting nothing more.

Deleted User wrote: »

When though?

I haven't heard any suggestion of investigating the other people who were complicit in hiding the abuse. Fact is, any thread on boards (or in the media) leans heavily where the blame is placed firmly on the Catholic Church (and Catholics).

This is simply an excuse for BS. It's about pissing on the interests of Catholics who are interested in seeing the Pope, so that the protesters can feel all righteous about themselves.

I highly doubt most people who are interested in protesting here, actually spend a minute thought the remainder of the year regarding protesting, raising awareness etc (beyond railing at the injustice of it all on boards).

I don't believe that in all cases that only the abuser and victims knew, or suspected, the abuse. I am sure that this was the case in many instances, but I can't believe that in all cases, others did not know and did not act.

All these people beating drums and shouting demagoguery about the Catholic Church is only hiding other people who should be investigated and prosecuted. Even if their crime was only an abdication of responsibility or failure to act.

None of the above in any way lessens the crimes of those who performed abuse. But the failings of society as a whole needs to be examined and learned from. And those who failed in their responsibilities need to be held to account

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Feel free to point out any inconsistent comments I made or contradictions. All i'm seeing from you and one other is personal slights and baiting nothing more.

Well you said you don't do whataboutery and about 6 posts later asked what about Chilean abuse victims

I'm still interested in your opinions on the culpability of other bodies of the state? Social services, teachers, Gardai.

People deserve answers why paedo-protecting was so prevalent in the Guards. They had ultimate responsibility for enforcing the law. And that abuse was against the law.

As I said, even if you make allowances for Gardai being less gifted on the intelligence scale, they still should have known their responsibilities. They should be held to account. Being ignorant thickos does not excuse their inaction

Donald Trump wrote:

Well you said you don't do whataboutery and about 6 posts later asked what about Chilean abuse victims

Addressed you are banned off the other thread and that is where the comment about Frank and Chile was made. A poster from that thread decided to carry on the topic here, but since this thread is about Frank it's relevant.

Donald Trump wrote:

I'm still interested in your opinions on the culpability of other bodies of the state? Social services, teachers, Gardai.

Start a thread and I'll offer my opinion.

Donald Trump wrote:

People deserve answers why paedo-protecting was so prevalent in the Guards. They had ultimate responsibility for enforcing the law. And that abuse was against the law.

Again start a relevant thread.

Donald Trump wrote:

As I said, even if you make allowances for Gardai being less gifted on the intelligence scale, they still should have known their responsibilities. They should be held to account.

See above.

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't believe that in all cases that only the abuser and victims knew, or suspected, the abuse. I am sure that this was the case in many instances, but I can't believe that in all cases, others did not know and did not act.

Traditional Irish culture was one of close knitted communities where many people knew the business of those around them. I'm from a small town. We have the old women who sit at windows watching what others are doing, and the gossip gets around. Ireland, as a modern society, has started moving away from that sense of community, but in many areas, we still have that close community environment.

I've spoken to my parents, and to retired priests (or those who left) about the behavior of clergy in the past. Most communities knew of the priests who had children with their housekeepers. It just wasn't commented upon because of the perceived power of the Church. Nobody really talks about the abuse that happened, but they've acknowledged that there were priests who were "odd/weird" who were kept moving around or who were supervised most times.

There must have been some awareness of what was happening either in levels of authority (Police, State officials, support organisations), or by the community itself. The idea that this behavior was happening for decades without any sign is pure drivel.

The Catholic Church is the easy target because they denied the abuses and obstructed the investigations when they did begin. No surprise there. The Catholic Church as with any major organisation tries to hide the sins of its members to present a "pure" or respectable reputation. And the Catholic Church should be held accountable for what happened.

However, at the same time, we should also be tracking down the officials or "normal" people who knew what was happening and allowed it to happen. Alas, there is this reasonably common attitude to focus on the Church and ignore that communities were just as responsible.

As regards this event, I have many family members who are nuns, brothers, or priests. All wonderful people who have given so much to their communities, and I despise anyone who would seek to ruin this day for them. Just so that you can feel righteous in your indignation over the abuses... Seems incredibly shallow and ignorant to me.

WinnyThePoo

Have to laugh at the apologists.Shameful idiotic stuff . You don't need organisation or leader to validate your faith.

Raping children is something as a society that should never taken lightly. There's no righteous indignation here, just morality.

work

Donald Trump wrote: »

work wrote: »

Long post on Whataboutery. Yes other groups have questions to answer and should be pursued BUT the pope is here now and it is his group that carried out the crimrs++++++ and are covering it up. Let's deal with the leader and guilty group and then the complicit enablers.

Yeah,......that sounds like hollow bullshit to be honest

There'll also be plenty of padeo-protecting Guards creaming off the overtime for the visit too. No? Maybe you can protest them while you are at it too.

I am confused what do you want?
A) Do nothing and imagine the church had nothing to answer.

Protest and go after the church for their crimes and criminal enabling.
C) Protest and go after all other groups that enabled these crimes.
It seems sensible to pursue

and C). However the group

are the first order criminal and enabler and their leader is here so should we pursue them NOW? Group C) should be pursued also but this opportunity to pursue the Abusing cult is here now.
So tell me exactly how this is hollow, how my posts are hollow and attendance at the Garden of rememberanc will be hollow? What do you want and let's be realistic?

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Addressed you are banned off the other thread and that is where the comment about Frank and Chile was made. A poster from that thread decided to carry on the topic here, but since this thread is about Frank it's relevant.

Start a thread and I'll offer my opinion.

Again start a relevant thread.

See above.

This is a thread about protesting the Pope's visit.

Do you think that people should be protesting the fact that for the Pope's visit, the paedo-loving guards are creaming off so much overtime?

Shouldn't they do it for free as a tiny act of recognition of their past failings.

I'm not aware of one Guard who has been even reprimanded for failing to investigate, or for explicit cover up of abuse.

Seems to me like there is a coordinated cover up through the hierarchy of the Guards. It must be possible that there are a lot of paedo of paedo-loving Guards. And that by extension, then the minority who are not paedo or paedo-loving would still be supporting those who are. And would be equally as culpable.

As I said before, lack of intelligence on their part does not excuse this.

They should be policing this event for free.

Donald Trump wrote:

This is a thread about protesting the Pope's visit.

Correct it is

Donald Trump wrote:

Do you think that people should be protesting the fact that for the Pope's visit, the paedo-loving guards are creaming off so much overtime?

Whataboutery the Army is also getting OT as are council workers and other public workers

Donald Trump wrote:

Shouldn't they do it for free as a tiny act of recognition of their past failings.

Start a thread to tease it out.

Donald Trump wrote:

I'm not aware of one Guard who has been even reprimanded for failing to investigate, or for explicit cover up of abuse.

As above.

Donald Trump wrote:

Seems to me like there is a coordinated cover up through the hierarchy of the Guards. It must be possible that there are a lot of paedo of paedo-loving Guards. And that by extension, then the minority who are not paedo or paedo-loving would still be supporting those who are. And would be equally as culpable.

As above

Donald Trump wrote:

As I said before, lack of intelligence on their part does not excuse this.

See above

Donald Trump wrote:

They should be policing this event for free.

Why should anyone provide free labour just because you think they should? Strange.

work

Deleted User wrote: »

work wrote: »

Long post on Whataboutery. Yes other groups have questions to answer and should be pursued BUT the pope is here now and it is his group that carried out the crimrs++++++ and are covering it up. Let's deal with the leader and guilty group and then the complicit enablers.

When though?

I haven't heard any suggestion of investigating the other people who were complicit in hiding the abuse. Fact is, any thread on boards (or in the media) leans heavily where the blame is placed firmly on the Catholic Church (and Catholics).

This is simply an excuse for BS. It's about pissing on the interests of Catholics who are interested in seeing the Pope, so that the protesters can feel all righteous about themselves.

I highly doubt most people who are interested in protesting here, actually spend a minute thought the remainder of the year regarding protesting, raising awareness etc (beyond railing at the injustice of it all on boards).

I cannot agree see how long ago this post was started and this event is helping rally support to bring all the criminals to justice

work wrote: »

I am confused what do you want?
A) Do nothing and imagine the church had nothing to answer.
Protest and go after the church for their crimes and criminal enabling.
C) Protest and go after all other groups that enabled these crimes.
It seems sensible to pursue and C). However the group are the first order criminal and enabler and their leader is here so should we pursue them NOW? Group C) should be pursued also but this opportunity to pursue the Abusing cult is here now.
So tell me exactly how this is hollow, how my posts are hollow and attendance at the Garden of rememberanc will be hollow? What do you want and let's be realistic?

Do whatever you want. There are state bodies that are responsible for making laws and state bodies that are responsible for enforcing laws. There are other bodies who interpret and administer justice based on those laws. Those are the routes that you go through to actually get anything done and effect change. That is why you have to first address why "C" in your example did not do their job. You will have to first establish legally that "C" did not do their job.

There is another level in your example by the way. The initial level is the perpetrators of the abuse. There is also the level of the Church as an organization. They are two different levels. The Catholic Church as an organization failed in properly vetting and monitoring those entering it and then in subsequently removing those who had committed abuses. And the Irish state failed in it's obligations in blindly handing over it's children to those people. I am sure that there were paedos who entered the Church just to have access to kids. That doesn't mean that all clergy were paedos. But I'd imagine that if you had those tendencies, you might be attracted to the organization. The organization is responsible for not weeding those out. But that's not the same as encouraging it.

What is going on online here is naked hatred and bigotry and attempted bullying.

In reality q lot of the people here don't give a shite about the victims. That's the sad thing here. They are glad to hear about more victims as it just gives them more ammo to attack the Catholics. That is the sad part

Bredabe

Yes! ppl should always protest things they feel are not morally correct or for the common good.

Donald Trump wrote:

Why do you support paedo-protecting guards?

Where did I say I do?

Donald Trump wrote:

Are you a guard?

Donald Trump wrote:

Are yiz all at it?

See above.

work wrote: »

I cannot agree see how long ago this post was started and this event is helping rally support to bring all the criminals to justice

Really? Bringing what criminals to justice? (since I assume we're still innocent until proven guilty)

But the focus is entirely on the Catholic Church and not any associated people who would be possibly guilty of hiding what happened or actively participating.

Deleted User wrote:

But the focus is entirely on the Catholic Church and not any associated people who would be possibly guilty of hiding what happened or actively participating.

Well the big event happening this weekend concerns the Catholic Church so yeah the church's role and participation in child rape and abuse including subsequent cover up and obstruction is front and centre. You surprised?

Timberrrrrrrr

Donald Trump wrote: »

Who is a supporter of anything other than people's freedom to practice whatever they want especially when it does not impinge on other people's rights.

Given that you appear to attempt to justify your whole bigoted attitude based on the historical turning of blind eyes and inactivity of the church and it's leadership in relation to historical abuses, I'd be interested to hear of your opinions of organs of the State who also turned blind eyes.

Given that the Church had no official legal power or authority over the state, but the likes of the social services and Gardai did, are they not also equally as culpable. And if the Pope is somehow "head of the paedos" is the top Garda not equally "head of the paedos" by the same logic?
And the blame attributed to current clergy can be equally applied to current members of the Gardai by the same logic?
And calling or implying that a Catholic is a paedophile supporter is analagous to implying that someone who supports the Gardai is a paedophile supporter.

So, what do you think? Do you support the Guards or do you think they are all paedos, tarnished by the activity of their predecessors. Are all the guards paedos? Covering over other paedos? Does that make you a paedo supporter if you support the guards by the similar logic applied to Catholics?

Granted that you could make allowances for the fact that most guards are thick, ill-educated gombeens, who generally were unfortunate in that there was usually not a lot of opportunity for intelligence to be inherited through their genes, but I don't think that would take a lot of the blame off them for their inaction.

Showing your true colours here.

WinnyThePoo

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Well the big event happening this weekend concerns the Catholic Church so yeah the church's role and participation in child rape and abuse including subsequent cover up and obstruction is front and centre. You surprised?

It's everyone else's fault. Pretty fcuked up apologism . The Catholic Church to this day still refuses to cooperate with authorities. Actions speak louder than words.

Dick Pickle

work wrote: »

I cannot agree see how long ago this post was started and this event is helping rally support to bring all the criminals to justice

What are you doing posting here? Shouldn’t you be put shaking your bare ass pale booty in the pope’s craven puss to create a bit of attention for your cause?

WinnyThePoo

Was reading this article

The hobo ethical code written in 1889

http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/the-hobo-ethical-code-of-1889.html

Rule 13
Do not allow other hobos to molest children; expose all molesters to authorities…they are the worst garbage to infest any society.

I agree, unfortunately the Catholic church doesn't.

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Well the big event happening this weekend concerns the Catholic Church so yeah the church's role and participation in child rape and abuse including subsequent cover up and obstruction is front and centre. You surprised?

That the limitation of your sympathy for victims does not extend beyond the limits of the Catholic Church is intriguing to me.

You want place blame only on some fella from South America who was born over there and lived the vast majority of his life over there, for crimes committed in Ireland.

Yet you don't want to comment on the failings of the guard in the local community who had the power and the authority to investigate and charge any perpetrators of abuse.

You won't have any questions asked of the local school teacher or social worker who might have suspected, or been told, what was going on

I would like to see the truth outed. All involved need to identified and held accountable. I am not aware of any report or admission from the Gardai on this. Smacks of a cover up. And the absence of any report shows that the cover up is still going on. Which would imply they are all paedo-protectors. By the same logic implied that Catholics are supporting paedophiles, all supporters of the Gardai would be supporting paedophiles. Why do you refuse to address this apparent inconsistency. Your responses on the topic remind me of 1990's Nordie political speech.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Showing your true colours here.

Ah Jaysus, clutching at straws there so you are

Are you another supporter of paedo-protecting guards?

We can't ask questions as to why they didn't do their job?

Skylinehead

Donald Trump wrote: »

Granted that you could make allowances for the fact that most guards are thick, ill-educated gombeens, who generally were unfortunate in that there was usually not a lot of opportunity for intelligence to be inherited through their genes, but I don't think that would take a lot of the blame off them for their inaction.

.....oooook. You're banned here too now btw.

alaimacerc

Donald Trump wrote: »

We can't ask questions as to why they didn't do their job?

Ah, "just asking questions".

You don't so much have questions in the plural, though, as very slight riffs on "ah, but what about..."

Donald Trump wrote:

That the limitation of your sympathy for victims does not extend beyond the limits of the Catholic Church is intriguing to me.

Actually I 'm staying on topic with the thread title

Donald Trump wrote:

You want place blame only on some fella from South America who was born over there and lived the vast majority of his life over there, for crimes committed in Ireland.

He attracts the blame as he holds full authority for the organisation he represents.Where he was born is irrelevant, his actions ( lack of) and speeches to-date do him no favours

Donald Trump wrote:

Yet you don't want to comment on the failings of the guard in the local community who had the power and the authority to investigate and charge any perpetrators of abuse.

Again I'll stick to the thread topic start one yourself about the guards if you wish.

Donald Trump wrote:

You won't have any questions asked of the local school teacher or social worker who might have suspected, or been told, what was going on

Subject for another thread if you wish

Donald Trump wrote:

I would like to see the truth outed. All involved need to identified and held accountable. I am not aware of any report or admission from the Gardai on this. Smacks of a cover up. And the absence of any report shows that the cover up is still going on. Which would imply they are all paedo-protectors. By the same logic implied that Catholics are supporting paedophiles, all supporters of the Gardai would be supporting paedophiles. Why do you refuse to address this apparent inconsistency. Your responses on the topic remind me of 1990's Nordie political speech.

You are accusing me of an inconsistency I have not engaged in as I have not diverged from the threads topic despite your attempts to try and bait me into doing so.

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Well the big event happening this weekend concerns the Catholic Church so yeah the church's role and participation in child rape and abuse including subsequent cover up and obstruction is front and centre. You surprised?

Nope. Not surprised. Just annoyed by these claims that this isn't an anti-catholic focus. There isn't any real effort to find those responsible beyond the members of the Catholic Church who were involved.

Deleted User wrote:

Nope. Not surprised. Just annoyed by these claims that this isn't an anti-catholic focus. There isn't any real effort to find those responsible beyond the members of the Catholic Church who were involved.

Well who do you think is responsible, why doesn't the church open their files and cooperate with the state and bring all responsible to justice. You and others keep blaming different organs of the state to lessen the blame on the church. Bishop Brady swore to young children to secrecy about the abuse they suffered at the hands of Brendan Smith. Instead of calling damnation down upon them if they spoke why didn't he denounce Smith? Instead he said nothing and Smith was allowed continue his abuse and destruction of young lives. Brady refused to resign when his abhorrent behaviour became public knowledge the Vatican did not seek his resignation either. Do you think this is the actions of a contrite organisation.

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Well who do you think is responsible, why doesn't the church open their files and cooperate with the state and bring all responsible to justice. You and others keep blaming different organs of the state to lessen the blame on the church.

Now, hold on a second. You're welcome to trawl through my entire history of posting on boards to find any example of me seeking to lessen the blame "on the church". Go ahead. Shouldn't be difficult to find.

Even within my posts within the last two pages, you won't find me trying to diminish the responsibility of the Church. So... where do you get this accusation from?

Here's where I stand. The Church is responsible. The State was responsible. That there were members of both Church and State who knew about the abuse and covered it up. There were also members of communities who did the same.

I object to simply targeting the Church as if they were solely responsible for what happened. And I object to protesting the Popes visit because it's simply pissing on the day for Catholics who are in no way responsible for what happened.