KCross wrote: » The difference in cost between a hybrid inverter and a standard one is not far off €1k! Any quotes I've seen for battery supply and install are nowhere near the €1100 inc vat you are quoting so I'd be interested to hear where you are getting that price from. Or is that €1100 when you buy it directly yourself? Based on the figures I've calculated the battery install makes no financial sense even with the €1000 grant. Batteries are coming down in cost and I think it makes more sense to wait for them to drop further rather than get hung up on the €1000 grant today. Wait long enough(3-5yrs maybe) and you will get better systems saving you more in capital costs than the grant is saving you today. Some back of beer mat figures..... lets say, all things being equal, that the cost difference (after grant) between a system with and without a 2.4kWh battery is €1500... whats the ROI on that €1500.... 16c/kWh for day rate electricity so thats just short of 10,000 units being required to break even.... thats ~4000 cycles of the battery which equates to ~11yrs and thats assuming that you get to cycle the battery everyday which won't actually happen in reality for several months of the year so its probably closer to 20yrs in reality..... it just doesn't add up. Also bear in mind that the 2.4kWh is probably not all usable and all the systems I've seen have a 10yr warranty guaranteeing 80% capacity so by the time it has paid for itself (15-20yrs) the battery is probably <80%.... it could be cooked! Battery costs need to come down before it makes any sense. People also need to watch the quotes..... some providers are giving high PV only quotes to make it look like the batteries are worth going for, but the reality is that their PV only quotes are high, not the battery quote being low. Get better PV only quotes and save yourself the capital cost of the batteries is my advice.
wexfordman2 wrote: » Well, it's an interesting comparison, I have two quotes from two different installers 1) a 3.54kwp solar system with hit water diverter at a cost of 7,500 Inc vat and Grant back if 1400, so cost to me is 6,100 2) A 4kwp system with a 5kwh battery and hybrid inverter and hot water diverter at a cost of 11k, with 3,800 grant so cost to me is 7,200. So the larger of system with a 5kwh battery is costing me 11,00 extra only.
KCross wrote: » The €6100 quote is too high though so that makes the €7200 look better than it is. Have you got a few quotes? You should be able to get the 3.54kWp quote closer to €5k. And how about try a 2.4kWp quote... that should come in around €3500. Keep in mind here that having a larger kWp doesn't necessarily give you anything extra... it will just be going back to the grid! There is no free lunch here.... get larger kWp system and give more to the grid or add batteries to reduce that but pay through the nose for the batteries! The only set of figures that made any sense for me based on my consumption and the quotes I got were to put in a 2.4kWp system with no batteries and even then the payback was ~12yrs. Don't believe any of the ROI figures the sales guys give you. They all assume standard tariff electricity prices (20c+/kWh) and they assume a water diverter thus giving 100% utilisation which is a fudge because water doesn't cost 20c/kWh to heat (gas, oil, heat pumps are all cheaper than that). If your motivation is environmental then thats fair enough. You can't quantify that.
KCross wrote: » The only set of figures that made any sense for me based on my consumption and the quotes I got were to put in a 2.4kWp system with no batteries and even then the payback was ~12yrs.
wexfordman2 wrote: » Thanks, I have two other reasons for.considering battery though. First, we use night saver, so should be able to charge battery and use during the day at night rate.
wexfordman2 wrote: » The other thing, is if I am not borrowing to pay for it, and I had the money for the battery sitting in the bank, would it not be earning more for me as a battery than as a deposit ?
unkel wrote: » You have PV, so that was before the subsidies came in? What were you quoted and how was it broken down in material and labour?
unkel wrote: » Mind sharing the breakdown of the quote in parts (detailed), labour and VAT, or did they just give you a bottom line figure?
unkel wrote: » All those prices seem very high to me. Looks like you were right about the installers inflating parts prices. From a well known Irish website these are prices available to the public (so not including trade discounts): Solis 5kW hybrid inverter is 1298 + VAT, not 1800 Very good quality 300W mono panel is 148 + VAT, not 205 4.8kWh battery is 1900 + VAT, not 2700 Labour at 1900 and a mounting system for 1300 how? Someone is making a very hefty profit here!
KCross wrote: » One quote I got was for 4.1kWp with 5kW Hybrid inverter with 4.8kWh battery was about €7100 inc vat after grant The breakdown inc vat before grant was this.... TSM-295 Panels|€205x14 5kW Solis Hybrid Inverter|€1800 Valk Solar mount system|€1295 Labour|€1900 4.8kWh PylonTech battery|(€2700+€300 install) Misc (Cables, isolators RCBOs)|€300 The Valk mounting system parts seemed ridiculous to me but maybe they are that price?!
Shefwedfan wrote: » Mounting systems here look cheaperhttps://solartricity.ie/products/roof-mountings-system/
wexfordman2 wrote: » Ok, I've got a bit of a quandry now. So, to date I have a quote of 11k for 4kwp solar with 5kw battery and hybrid inverter and eddi water heater equating to 7k after seai grant Yesterday, was speaking to another company y who told me the battery was a poor invesent and should avoid it. He offered a 3.5kwp system for a cost of 5,100 after grant (which I think is expensive actually. So for 1900 euro extra I am getting 4kwp instead of 3.5kwp and also a 5kwh battery with hybrid inverter meaning I can charge up at night time Any thoughts ?
KCross wrote: » I see a whole load of stuff there Shef but what does it cost when you put all the pieces together..... there's flashings, hooks, runners, bits 'n bobs in the quotes... I can't really tell how much a full installation kit is from the website you posted. Do you have the total cost of the mounting parts for 14 panels on a slate roof?
gunnerfitzy wrote: » The net cost for the 2.5kwh battery is around €2/300 for me considering the €1k battery grant and the difference in solar grant (there is a cap at €1400 if you don’t get the battery). It might be less for you as you are looking at a 4kw array, mine is likely to be 3.2kw. My thinking is to get the 2.5kwh battery now with the solar. It’s a small battery for the system but you get the infrastructure in place and it’s should be relatively simple to add another battery at a later stage. I just can’t see the ROI of the 5kwh battery over the 2.5kwh battery.
KCross wrote: » Is your motivation to get a battery entirely to save money? If it is, I think you are comparing the wrong figures. Its not really €200 extra. You need to get a quote for the same system without a battery. The difference between those two quotes is what its really costing you, not the €200 you are using. Then see what the ROI is for that difference. I think you'll find the payback is very long. Even trying to future proof it now to add extra batteries later won't justify it, imo. Having a battery in the mix increases the cost of the inverter, labour, and obviously the battery itself. The €1k grant just about covers the increased inverter cost. Focussing on drawing down the €1k battery grant is fool-hardy, again, imo.
gunnerfitzy wrote: » Granted, 2.5kwh won’t last too long however if resticted to some lighting for example it would last for a number of hours
gunnerfitzy wrote: » KCross wrote: » Is your motivation to get a battery entirely to save money? If it is, I think you are comparing the wrong figures. Its not really €200 extra. You need to get a quote for the same system without a battery. The difference between those two quotes is what its really costing you, not the €200 you are using. Then see what the ROI is for that difference. I think you'll find the payback is very long. Even trying to future proof it now to add extra batteries later won't justify it, imo. Having a battery in the mix increases the cost of the inverter, labour, and obviously the battery itself. The €1k grant just about covers the increased inverter cost. Focussing on drawing down the €1k battery grant is fool-hardy, again, imo. Opinions duely noted. However, since the battery grant is only available at the same time as installing the solar PV I would argue that it also fool-hardy to dismiss it hastingly. There are some other considerations that just ROI. The right battery system can be used in the event of a power cut. Granted, 2.5kwh won’t last too long however if resticted to some lighting for example it would last for a number of hours - longer than most power outages I would imagine. With kids in the house I think this is a distinct plus. It should also give somewhat of a buffer between the night and day tariffs. I don’t see any SEAI registered company supplying and installing a 3.2kw system with diverter for much under €4000 after the grant. My proposed system will be around €5000 after grant with hybrid inverter, eddi and 2.5kwh battery. IF I get 5 years out of the battery, is any savings and peace of mind from some back up power worth €200 per year? To me - yes.
KCross wrote: » That is why I asked if money was your only motivation. If the system quoted allows off grid operation and you value that then cool. Not all systems support that either, by the way, so I presume they have confirmed it will? I do think you should get a quote for the same system minus the battery from the same provider to get your true cost, because it certainly ain’t €200!
unkel wrote: » If you take it easy and only use essentials, internet , charging phones , lights, watch TVs , that should last several days.
gunnerfitzy wrote: » Grant for a 4kw array and any battery is €3800. The grant for a 4kw array and no battery is €1400. That €2400 extra should soak up the vast majority of cost of a small battery and associated costs. In theory ...
unkel wrote: » The one thing I don't understand in this scheme is that a 7 panel 2kwp system is the max without planning permission. Do the SEAI really expect anyone going over that to apply for permission? That ain't gonna happen.
Brecken Tart Newscast wrote: » Has anyone given a valid reason for not naming the companies?
niallers1 wrote: » And remember. If you go over 2kw pv system you have to get a battery if you want the full grant. Grant for 2kw system without battery is 1400 euros Grant for 4kw system without a battery is 1400 euros. Grant for 4kw system with battery is 3800 euros.
unkel wrote: » My thinking exactly. So 2400 minus 1100 incl VAT for the 2.4kWh battery minus about 900 incl VAT you pay extra for the hybrid inverter over a standard one. Leaves 400 for the extra cost of installing, which should really more more than plenty => the battery is completely free. QED.
