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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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CatInABox

LXFlyer wrote: »

The chances of it happening in the timeframe that the BusConnects plan is supposed to be implemented are exceptionally slim.

At a minimum it would require a passing loop, the only location suitable for one being in the Redford area, nowhere else.

That's going to require a lot of infrastructural works, including resignalling, and the additional track workd. There has been no indication that any funding has been set aside for this. It's not something that can happen in a short timeframe.

I also think it would be very challenging operationally to maintain that level of frequency south of Bray as it would leave very little scope for recovery of late running services. With an intensively used single track you have to have redundancy built in to allow for this and it would be very tight.

Yes, the ten minute schedule is meant to come in within the next few months, presumably this is when they'd planned to move over to twenty minute Darts to Greystones. Any infrastructure that needs to be there for this should have been in planning already, and works started, even near completion.

Not sure how they're planning on doing this.

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, the ten minute schedule is meant to come in within the next few months, presumably this is when they'd planned to move over to twenty minute Darts to Greystones. Any infrastructure that needs to be there for this should have been in planning already, and works started, even near completion.

Not sure how they're planning on doing this.

The new DART timetable in September will not feature 20 minute services to Greystones. There was never any suggestion of it.

It’s not physically possible with the current infrastructure.

To the best of my knowledge there has been no work by Iarnrod Eireann on this other than some significant time back when there was a look at installing a loop.

This kind of thing requires extensive lead times in terms of planning and installation. Hence I would suggest that the end of next year is a nonsense.

Bray Head

LXFlyer wrote: »

At a minimum it would require a passing loop, the only location suitable for one being in the Redford area, nowhere else.

That's going to require a lot of infrastructural works, including resignalling, and the additional track workd. There has been no indication that any funding has been set aside for this. It's not something that can happen in a short timeframe.

LXFlyer is correct that the Redford area is the only place that is practical to put one in. But this is only 20% or so of the distance between Bray and Greystones stations.

The optimal place would of course be half way between Bray and Greystones. This is not feasible because it would involve rock blasting or tunnelling.

So any passing loop at Redford would gain very little operationally.

ted1 wrote: »

The battery will have degraded over 10-20 years to the point where it’s nit useable

What battery?!

These Bimode trains don't have one, they operate either off Diesel or directly off overhead powerlines like DART, they aren't battery trains.

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, the ten minute schedule is meant to come in within the next few months, presumably this is when they'd planned to move over to twenty minute Darts to Greystones. Any infrastructure that needs to be there for this should have been in planning already, and works started, even near completion.

Does the 10 minute schedule need to operate to Greystones every 20 minutes?

Could it just terminate at Bray and one every 30 minutes goes onto Greystones?

Perhaps they are thinking of reintroducing a Bray to Greystones shuttle, it would be inline with what is happening with Metrolink (at Sandyford) and BusConnects. Watch some peoples heads explode around here if that happens!

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Does the 10 minute schedule need to operate to Greystones every 20 minutes?

Could it just terminate at Bray and one every 30 minutes goes onto Greystones?

Perhaps they are thinking of reintroducing a Bray to Greystones shuttle, it would be inline with what is happening with Metrolink (at Sandyford) and BusConnects. Watch some peoples heads explode around here if that happens!

As I already posted - this was never part of the current 10 minute DART proposal.

It only includes a 30 minute service to/from Greystones.

The infrastructure cannot cope with more than that.

LXFlyer wrote: »

As I already posted - this was never part of the current 10 minute DART proposal.

It only includes a 30 minute service to/from Greystones.

The infrastructure cannot cope with more than that.

The reason I ask is people were stating this in relation to BusConnects. Busconnects does seem to assume a 10 minute frequency, at least between Bray and Howth Junction and 20 minutes North. A lot of the buses are being re-arranged to meet up with these DARTs.

I didn't get the impression that they really needed to serve Greystones every 20 minutes for the rest of the BusConnects plan to go ahead. Greystones at 20mins would certainly be nice to have, but not a major deal compared to the rest of the 10 minute schedule and overall BusConnects plan.

loyatemu

There's 500m between the Grove level crossing and the first (long) tunnel. There's also space to widen the cutting there to put in a loop without huge engineering works.

That plus improved signalling at the Bray end might cut 5 mins off the turnaround time, it wod still be tight for a 20 min service though.

It would cost money, but that's the whole point of the Dart upgrade plan.

L1011

ted1 wrote: »

The battery will have degraded over 10-20 years to the point where it’s nit useable

Bi-mode trains don't have traction batteries - either overhead or third rail electricity or an onboard diesel generator

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

There's 500m between the Grove level crossing and the first (long) tunnel. There's also space to widen the cutting there to put in a loop without huge engineering works.

That plus improved signalling at the Bray end might cut 5 mins off the turnaround time, it wod still be tight for a 20 min service though.

It would cost money, but that's the whole point of the Dart upgrade plan.

None of that would be in place by the end of 2019 when BusConnects is planned (supposedly) to be put into operation.

That’s the location for the loop that IE looked at before and that I mentioned above.

Installing an extra loop isn’t something that can happen quickly - it does require a lot of work.

I just don’t see this level of frequency happening - it’s not realistic from a scheduling perspective.

Cutting turnaround times is not wise - you risk performance going through the floor otherwise.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

The reason I ask is people were stating this in relation to BusConnects. Busconnects does seem to assume a 10 minute frequency, at least between Bray and Howth Junction and 20 minutes North. A lot of the buses are being re-arranged to meet up with these DARTs.

I didn't get the impression that they really needed to serve Greystones every 20 minutes for the rest of the BusConnects plan to go ahead. Greystones at 20mins would certainly be nice to have, but not a major deal compared to the rest of the 10 minute schedule and overall BusConnects plan.

The BusConnects document states it as part of the assumptions, but I’ve seen zero evidence that the necessary infrastructural works are even on the horizon.

LXFlyer wrote: »

The BusConnects document states it as part of the assumptions, but I’ve seen zero evidence that the necessary infrastructural works are even on the horizon.

I just double checked and you are correct it does.

But I'd also have to say that the planed changes around Greystones don't look particularly significant and I don't think it would be a big deal overall to BusConnects if 20mins to Greystones didn't happen for a few more years.

Obviously you would adjust the BusConnects plan accordingly for Greystones, but as long as DARTs operate every 10 minutes to Bray, I see very little impact on the overall BusConnects plan.

L1011 wrote: »

Bi-mode trains don't have traction batteries - either overhead or third rail electricity or an onboard diesel generator

What Irish Rail seem to be thinking of is actually a pretty neat idea. They seem to be thinking of going with the same as the British Rail Class 755.

Basically 4 carriages, all fully electric, no diesel motors in them, Pantograph on the first carriage. So where do the diesel motors go? Well a dedicated mini carriage/power car will sit in the middle of the train with 2 carriages in front of it and two behind and with 4 diesel motors in it (no seats).

A really neat idea.

The advantage is that when full electrification occurs, you can simply remove this middle generator car and you have a standard electric train with no extra weight.

You could also swap in a EV battery generator car or hydrogen generator car if those technologies develop in the future.

Two other advantages, no noise and vibrations from the Diesel engines under the passenger carriages like people complain about on the ICR's and I assume each to swap out the engine carriage for maintenance and quickly swap in a spare.

I'm sure there are downsides, but it sounds like a very neat solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_755

SeanW

Good news if true - I was afraid they were just going to get 29000s with pantographs ... what a crock that would have been.

Assuming these work as intended, I'd imagine they could be replaced by straight EMUs and be cascaded down to replace the 29000s as and when electrification becomes more widespread. The 29Ks have been around since the early 2000s and will no hopefully soon be due for a mid-life overhaul be given early retirement in the nearest scrapyard.

SeanW wrote: »

Good news if true - I was afraid they were just going to get 29000s with pantographs ... what a crock that would have been.

Well we will have to wait and see what the actual tenders look like. But these were mentioned by the Chief Mechanical Engineer at Irish Rail during a Engineers Ireland presentation. So we know they are seriously looking at these. BTW his presentation had loads of other really interesting and geeky info about rail maintenance, some very cool stuff there.

Like being able to prove from the diagnostic logs that some ejit of a passenger who made a complaint was actually pressing the door open button on the wrong side of the train!

Presentation here:
https://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/groups/societies/roads-tranport/IEI-Technology-in-the-Railway-March-2018-Version-2-for-IEI-(2).pdf?ext=.pdf

The new train stuff starts at page 67.

SeanW wrote: »

Assuming these work as intended, I'd imagine they could be replaced by straight EMUs and be cascaded down to replace the 29000s as and when electrification becomes more widespread. The 29Ks have been around since the early 2000s and will no hopefully soon be due for a mid-life overhaul be given early retirement in the nearest scrapyard.

That is the beauty of these, they are straight EMU's, simply unhook the center Diesel Generator mini car and it is a EMU.

I actually assume they will be buying different types for different parts of the network. These sound like they would make for good commuters, but they wouldn't be good replacements for actual DARTs

L1011

Stadler are more than willing to build for non standard gauges as well which is why I suspect that the tender will looking specifically for those.

Think they've built 1500v DC models already too

roadmaster

Since the maynooth line and dunboyne line will be dart i said id post this here. The new station at pelletstown by adding in this stop on a busy commuter/intercity rail line will journey times end up being a little longer?

marno21

They will, not least because of the time taken to stop at the station. Bear in mind, there will be another station opening for Metrolink at Whitworth Road, Glasnevin.

This can be mitigated somewhat by the electrified trains which bring added acceleration.

roadmaster

marno21 wrote: »

They will, not least because of the time taken to stop at the station. Bear in mind, there will be another station opening for Metrolink at Whitworth Road, Glasnevin.

This can be mitigated somewhat by the electrified trains which bring added acceleration.

Any added acceleration would be good . This morning i was in the city so i took the train and my god they are slow leaving the stations. I think its time to go back to using the port tunnel

xper

Also bear in mind that, on suburban lines, more stations means bigger catchment, means more demand, means better services (...eventually ... on a well run railway ... ok, I'll stop while I'm ahead)

Dats me

Why hasn't the DART expansion started? And is the city-centre resignalling done?

LeinsterDub

Dats me wrote: »

Why hasn't the DART expansion started? And is the city-centre resignalling done?

Like all of this. Lack of political will

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Like all of this. Lack of political will

The new Metro plans are meant to be published this month, once they're done, I'd say we'll hear more on this. The NTA only have so many people, and can't progress all their projects at the same time.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

The new Metro plans are meant to be published this month, once they're done, I'd say we'll hear more on this. The NTA only have so many people, and can't progress all their projects at the same time.

Indeed. The NTA are progressing Metrolink quite quickly, and also dealing with the BusConnects network redesign and the BusConnects infrastructure rollout. They seem to be doing quite well with the resources they have.

DART Expansion to Balbriggan is programmed to start in 2020. We should hear about this soon.

What I really want to hear about though is DART Expansion to Maynooth. Absolutely critical project getting nothing more than lip service. It really can't wait.

CatInABox

One interesting thing to note on this is that they are preparing the board for this already. Pelletstown Station got approval there recently, and I'd say we're going to see more of this kind of thing, i.e. any part of the Dart expansion that require planning permission will be dealt with individually, and the NTA are just going to deal with the electrification/fleet upgrades with a Railway Order.

LeinsterDub

CatInABox wrote: »

The new Metro plans are meant to be published this month, once they're done, I'd say we'll hear more on this. The NTA only have so many people, and can't progress all their projects at the same time.

I'm certainly not blaming the NTA this issue has excited long before their formation

MJohnston

What's interesting to me is that BusConnects seems to have taken a massive amount of the heat off of MetroLink. Not that the consultation was still open anyway mind you, but I wonder if it will have had a smoother ride through with that deflecting political attention.

cgcsb

Final metrolink design due out shortly. The busconnects public consultation on the network review finishes at the end of the September. Detailed report on BusConnects infrastructure comes out in October. Planning permission for College Green Plaza due out first week of October(key to bus connects), Public consultation on Bus Connects infrastructure starts around October/November. I'd say we'll hear about DART expansion in January. There's just too many gigantic projects at the one time. A product of lack of political will. Most of the rail projects should have been delivered by the early 1980s.

Kevtherev1

CatInABox wrote: »

One interesting thing to note on this is that they are preparing the board for this already. Pelletstown Station got approval there recently, and I'd say we're going to see more of this kind of thing, i.e. any part of the Dart expansion that require planning permission will be dealt with individually, and the NTA are just going to deal with the electrification/fleet upgrades with a Railway Order.

Good news on pelletstown rail station, lots of apartment blocks and still some vacant sites for more apartments to be built. NTA says construction to begin 2019 and to open 2021. I found following articles for others to read

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/pelletstown-train-station-15049326

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/trains-to-arrive-in-dublin-suburb-after-20-year-delay-1.3601201

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irishrail-new-train-station-pelletstown-13108822

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/planning-awarded-for-new-train-station-at-pelletstown-for-dublin-commuters-863283.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/new-e6-5-train-station-in-dublin-gets-green-light-4191066-Aug2018/

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0820/986258-pelletstown/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/planning-awarded-for-new-train-station-at-pelletstown-for-dublin-commuters-863283.html

L1011

There's zero capacity at peak on the trains that run through the site of Pelletstown Station currently. So you're going to have to hire some Japanese crowd pushers if you want to get on.