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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

beveragelady

I called An Post today to try to sort out a problem with deliveries. The customer service chap was very helpful and I think it all got sorted.
The thing is, I tried to give him my Eircode because I live at a vague rural address but he said that they're not using them because the system isn't set up.
Amazed!
It's bad enough that they're no good to users of satnavs or google maps, but this is just astonishing. Can anybody explain how this could have been launched to such fanfare when it's all but meaningless?

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BonnieSituation

I applied for my licence renewal and put my Eircode on the renewal form and I thought I saw the guy in the NDLS centre cross it out.

Sure enough, the licence landed today and my Eircode was omitted.

Bray Head

Last week my polling card was delivered with an eircode.

The lookup on checktheregister.ie uses it too.

Its implementation is slow but inexorable.

MBSnr

Bray Head wrote: »

Last week my polling card was delivered with an eircode.

The lookup on checktheregister.ie uses it too.

Its implementation is slow but inexorable.

I recently updated my details on the electoral roll and supplied an Eircode. My polling card had it but my wife's at the same address did not. You think they'd have been able to somehow realise and update hers to include it but seemingly not.... I think it'll be many the year until the electoral roll for rural areas has an Eircode for each address.

EdgeCase

I'd say it very much depends on where you are and what your council has been up to over the last while in terms of database management.

I know in Cork City for example, we seemed to get polling cards with Eircodes, but in some more rural areas people didn't.

I'd speculate the reason is that with addresses that are unique, even if it's a just a house name, there's some kind of hope of just running automation to match the postal address to an eircode.

However, if you're in a really rural area, and most of your addresses are just names and vague town lands, it's probably more likely to be done with a large degree of manual intervention and database clean up.

Eircode is definitely phasing in to all sorts of addressing databases, but it's really on the basis of costs justifying the need and their being no mad rush.

My view of it is that you'll see near universal use of Eircode in about 10 years time, as it becomes a convenient tool for accurate addressing.

I'd rather see the councils doing this at the lowest possible cost.

It would definitely clear up issues with misdelivered items.

Bray Head

The CSO published data on new dwelling completions yesterday. This is the best estimate (ever) in Ireland of new dwelling completions and settles a long-running debate about how many are actually being built - a lot lower than what people used to think.

The CSO's technique involves cleaning and matching data from multiple sources to come up with an estimate of new dwellings. You can read about the methodology here.

It's another quietly successful use of eircodes to make better public policy. And it could not have been done by any other way except a unique identifier for each dwelling!

beauf

Bray Head wrote: »

...It's another quietly successful use of eircodes to make better public policy. And it could not have been done by any other way except a unique identifier for each dwelling!

Was there every an alternative that proposed using non unique identifiers?

Bray Head

There

beauf wrote: »

Was there every an alternative that proposed using non unique identifiers?

Yes. You should read the several hundred pages of the thread. The human imagination is a strange and fertile place:D

EdgeCase

Bray Head wrote: »

The CSO published data on new dwelling completions yesterday. This is the best estimate (ever) in Ireland of new dwelling completions and settles a long-running debate about how many are actually being built - a lot lower than what people used to think.

The CSO's technique involves cleaning and matching data from multiple sources to come up with an estimate of new dwellings. You can read about the methodology here.

It's another quietly successful use of eircodes to make better public policy. And it could not have been done by any other way except a unique identifier for each dwelling!

It was done with ESB connections in the past as the ESB has a single meter per active dwelling, hardly any home has no electricity or is off-grid and there’s a unique ID (MPRN) for every meter.

Bray Head

EdgeCase wrote: »

It was done with ESB connections in the past as the ESB has a single meter per active dwelling, hardly any home has no electricity or is off-grid and there’s a unique ID (MPRN) for every meter.

Except there were a lot of re connections which was leading to a situation where the Department for Housing (using ESB data) were estimating that there were several thousand more new houses every year than was actually the case.

Also, you can have one meter for two dwellings - for example in a basement flat.

The CSO has put together several datasets using the eircode as part of the matching algorithm. It's a huge improvement.

beauf

Bray Head wrote: »

There

Yes. You should read the several hundred pages of the thread. The human imagination is a strange and fertile place:D

So that's actually a no then.

Its amazing anyone found anything before eircode.

beauf

EdgeCase wrote: »

It was done with ESB connections in the past as the ESB has a single meter per active dwelling, hardly any home has no electricity or is off-grid and there’s a unique ID (MPRN) for every meter.

From that article.

...the Meter Point Reference Number (MPRN) is also provided which is essential for linking the data to other sources such as the BER dataset....

plodder

Bray Head wrote: »

The CSO published data on new dwelling completions yesterday. This is the best estimate (ever) in Ireland of new dwelling completions and settles a long-running debate about how many are actually being built - a lot lower than what people used to think.

The CSO's technique involves cleaning and matching data from multiple sources to come up with an estimate of new dwellings. You can read about the methodology here.

It's another quietly successful use of eircodes to make better public policy. And it could not have been done by any other way except a unique identifier for each dwelling!

Did it need to be a public identifier though? Could they just as easily have used the Geodirectory building id? It remains to be seen whether a public unique housing identifier (as a postcode) is actually a good thing.

Off topic, but that document you linked is a bit confusing. They use a term UFHD which they don't define yet it seems to be central to the whole thing. I assume it's unfinished housing or something, but it seems to me that as regards solving the housing crisis then these UFHD's being completed should be counted as new houses. What they seem to be measuring is construction activity, which is a different thing though important as well obviously.

Bray Head

plodder wrote: »

Did it need to be a public identifier though? Could they just as easily have used the Geodirectory building id?

Probably yes. The approach involves linking up with the BER and Revenue estamping data. Getting a new BER cert and selling a house demand the use of an eircode now.

You could in theory have a *non-public* unique identifier used on all of these databases. But then no one would know what it is, so you would have to make it public in some limited form.

Eircode is not so much about delivering mail as making the delivery of public services more efficient.

[Deleted User]

beauf wrote: »

Was there every an alternative that proposed using non unique identifiers?

Yeah, Townlands

Sam Russell

I applied to renew my EHIC card online. No Eircode requested or supplied when I gave my address.

TheChizler

Sam Russell wrote: »

I applied to renew my EHIC card online. No Eircode requested or supplied when I gave my address.

Might be a step too far to expect the HSE to embrace something useful...

beauf

Apparently "Townland" is enough...

sondagefaux

Looks like the CSO has found that using Eircodes to develop statistics on the numbers of new build homes is far more accurate than relying on new electrical connections.

https

/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/number-of-new-homes-built-jumps-by-30-cso-figures-show-1.3603079

beauf

Doesn't seem to explain why there a discrepancy.

L1011

More accurate or more useful from a propaganda perspective?

Electricity connections was a terrible metric but I'm not sure eircodes are better - there will be cases of existing units getting eircodes allocated due to errors on day 1 for years yet. Not major but noise in statistics is always problematic

Edit: as it has reduced the figures it's definitely not more useful from a propaganda perspective...

New connections includes things like farm sheds and may even have things like supplies for Christmas lights or the like in it. Also long since built but unused housing being connected which isn't actually a new build, etc etc

beauf

I think its another one of these media stories around stats that is missing the complete picture.

sondagefaux

beauf wrote: »

Doesn't seem to explain why there a discrepancy.

Explained above by L1011. A cowshed with a new electricity connection isn't a new house. Cowsheds don't get Eircodes. For the purpose of calculating the number of new build homes, Eircodes are more accurate than electricity connections.

Another positive from the introduction of Eircodes.

EdgeCase

It'd be useful if they just knew how many houses / apartments were being built, you know, like any properly run state might be able to calculate from say planning permissions, building permits or something genuinely useful, rather than taking a wild guess based on some other data source.

I wouldn't blame Eircode for someone using the database to supplement for lack of actual data.

beauf

sondagefaux wrote: »

Explained above by L1011. ....

It really isn't. You'd imagine they know when a new connection is a new account or an attached to another residential one. Or numerous industrial units. That they don't is very unlikely.

We are just guessing without an explanation from whomever created the report.

Bray Head

The new, better stats are nothing to do with the introduction of eircode per se. That said, having a unique identifier for each dwelling will make the data manipulation much easier.

I don't really agree with the CSO using the first part of the eircode for analytical purposes though. The areas are not really meaningful - particularly outside Dublin. The CSO are giving them a significance they don't really have.

EdgeCase

Some of the routing codes are insanely huge and others are tiny and that doesn't necessarily follow the lines of population either. I have no idea what the logic behind them was.

You get extreme granularity in Dublin due to the integration of the Dublin district numbers as a routing code and then you get reasonable granularity around Cork.

Galway and Limerick are in massive routing codes that cover vast areas.
Then little places like Ballinrobe and a few other random spots, seem to have their own routing codes for some reason.

It makes no logical sense as a way of dividing up the country for statistical analysis.

Sam Russell

EdgeCase wrote: »

Some of the routing codes are insanely huge and others are tiny and that doesn't necessarily follow the lines of population either. I have no idea what the logic behind them was.

You get extreme granularity in Dublin due to the integration of the Dublin district numbers as a routing code and then you get reasonable granularity around Cork.

Galway and Limerick are in massive routing codes that cover vast areas.
Then little places like Ballinrobe and a few other random spots, seem to have their own routing codes for some reason.

It makes no logical sense as a way of dividing up the country for statistical analysis.

They should have used about 2,000 routing codes. It made no sense use variable sized and in some cases not even contiguous routing codes.

A poor design.

Bray Head

EdgeCase wrote: »

It makes no logical sense as a way of dividing up the country for statistical analysis.

Precisely. Eircodes were neither intended nor designed to be used for statistical presentation. They correspond to routing keys used by An Post I understand. No official map of them has been produced, and that is quite deliberate. They are simply an arbitrary code the way that 0402 denotes a landline in or around Arklow. No one ever talks about the price of houses or number of cattle in the 0402 telephone area because it is not in any way meaningful. It should be the same with eircodes.

Save for Dublin, where postcodes are contiguous and well known, the CSO should not have started to use eircode areas like this for statistical presentation as it gives them a status that they do not deserve. Instead, they should have used a simple matching algorithm to present the data for counties, NUTS3 regions or ideally groups of small areas.

plodder

Bray Head wrote: »

Precisely. Eircodes were neither intended nor designed to be used for statistical presentation. They correspond to routing keys used by An Post I understand. No official map of them has been produced, and that is quite deliberate. They are simply an arbitrary code the way that 0402 denotes a landline in or around Arklow. No one ever talks about the price of houses or number of cattle in the 0402 telephone area because it is not in any way meaningful. It should be the same with eircodes.

Save for Dublin, where postcodes are contiguous and well known, the CSO should not have started to use eircode areas like this for statistical presentation as it gives them a status that they do not deserve. Instead, they should have used a simple matching algorithm to present the data for counties, NUTS3 regions or ideally groups of small areas.

It was easy to predict that they would. For any data that is already organised by eircode, then it's easy to publish aggregated statistics by routing key.

Routing keys (whether we like them or not) are public identifiers that the public and other non technical users can understand. This is not the case for NUTS codes. The other routing keys may over time become as well known as the Dublin postcodes.

Bray Head

plodder wrote: »

Routing keys (whether we like them or not) are public identifiers that the public and other non technical users can understand. This is not the case for NUTS codes. The other routing keys may over time become as well known as the Dublin postcodes.

I agree. However Ireland's national statistical institute should know better than to promote their use in such a way.