Should we protest against the pope's visit?

realitykeeper wrote: »

What is quite clear is how wrong you are. Demands are now being made to break laws in order to name and shame priests against whom there are allegations. Given that one is innocent until proven guilty, this is the very definition of a witch hunt as evoked by the images you describe.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/call-to-name-and-shame-abusive-clergy-863481.html

credible allegations I think you'll find in the very first line of that article...

what characteristic or attribute of an accusation renders it credible?

batgoat wrote: »

Maybe this situation would never have arisen if the church had actually reported the crimes? But instead you're making this about the poor church and they're really the victims... Everything goes back to, the church intentionally made it impossible to investigate.

And that`s another thing, if I were a victim of rape or whatever, I would go tell the Gardaí. None of these allegations ring true and the utter prejudice displayed against the clergy by all levels of society reinforce the perception that this is a witch hunt.

RustyNut

realitykeeper wrote: »

I have no doubt there are elements of truth here and there in Mein Kampf, but did that book represent truth and fact on a reasonable and unbiased basis? Hardly.

Much the same as the bible or quran etc.

tylercheribini

What makes it all the worse is that one expects institutions such as banks to be corrupt and to a certain extent some of the police but not our supposed moral guardians, the church. They are the very definition of talking out both sides of their mouth and are a canon law unto themselves. Home Rule really did turn out to be Rome Rule.

Water John

Reality, that line of, why didn't the victims go to the guards, is no longer used as it has no credibility.
The fact you resurrect the old chestnut, says a lot about you. Don't be wasting our time. That yarn was tried 20 years ago.

lawred2 wrote: »

credible allegations I think you'll find in the very first line of that article...

The fact that these unproven allegations are described as "credible" is an example of why so much mainstream news is describe as "fake" these days. I can parse the truth from the media reports, which is why I quoted the article. A lot of people just believe everything they read without taking account of the editorial biases, inaccuracies, inconsistencies etc

One simple question. If one was to start a religious organisation, do you think we should start off with an organisation with systemic child abuse and an inbuilt sexism code?

Because that it what the CC is. Currently. Now. The one that people continue to support.

tylercheribini

Leroy42 wrote: »

One simple question. If one was to start a religious organisation, do you think we should start off with an organisation with systemic child abuse and an inbuilt sexism code?

Because that it what the CC is. Currently. Now. The one that people continue to support.

To paraphrase Christoper Hitchens trying to convince somebody their chosen religion is a falsehood is like trying to tell them they are not in love.

4068ac1elhodqr

realitykeeper wrote: »

... I would go tell the Gardaí.

Many of the stories tell of 11yo or whatever being tormented by these priests who have a swagger of moral authority and control over their own family, their schools and youth clubs or whatever.

You really thing a confused kid is going to march across to the cops with some story and risk the wrath upon all they know, get real.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

And that`s another thing, if I were a victim of rape or whatever, I would go tell the Gardaí. None of these allegations ring true and the utter prejudice displayed against the clergy by all levels of society reinforce the perception that this is a witch hunt.

So in the 60's 70's 80's in catholic ireland you (maybe a teenage boy/girl) would have gone to the gards and made an allegation of rape against the local priest?

realitykeeper wrote: »

The fact that these unproven allegations are described as "credible" is an example of why so much mainstream news is describe as "fake" these days.

Even the pope accepts that the church has a certain % of paedophile priests. So even if these exact allegations are not proven we know that there are thousands of real cases.

And what difference would it make if they were shown to be credible? Would you suddenly turn your back on the church? Would it change your view of the Pope? Doubt it, since you have already countless proven cases and yet you continue to stay loyal

realitykeeper wrote: »

The fact that these unproven allegations are described as "credible" is an example of why so much mainstream news is describe as "fake" these days. I can parse the truth from the media reports, which is why I quoted the article. A lot of people just believe everything they read without taking account of the editorial biases, inaccuracies, inconsistencies etc

oh right

fake news then

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So in the 60's 70's 80's in catholic ireland you (maybe a teenage boy/girl) would have gone to the gards and made an allegation of rape against the local priest?

If you think the Gardaí of yesteryear were bad at their jobs, why not go witch hunt them?

Water John

Staying loyal and maybe trying to exert change internally is one thing. Reality, here wants to largely deny the abuse ever happened.

Omar Orange Ignoramus wrote: »

Many of the stories tell of 11yo or whatever being tormented by these priests who have a swagger of moral authority and control over their own family, their schools and youth clubs or whatever.

You really thing a confused kid is going to march across to the cops with some story and risk the wrath upon all they know, get real.

realitykeeper is already keeping it real... I think... or something

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

If you think the Gardaí of yesteryear were bad at their jobs, why not go witch hunt them?

Thats not the question i asked you, are you saying that a teenager in those days would have been believed if he/she accused a priest (who held way too much power in the community) of rape?

B0jangles

So Realitykeeper, you're calling all those children liars?

All the thousands and thousands of abused children, over many decades, in countries all over the world.

All lying to make the poor little Church look bad?

Leroy42 wrote: »

Even the pope accepts that the church has a certain % of paedophile priests. So even if these exact allegations are not proven we know that there are thousands of real cases.

And what difference would it make if they were shown to be credible? Would you suddenly turn your back on the church? Would it change your view of the Pope? Doubt it, since you have already countless proven cases and yet you continue to stay loyal

You could say the same thing about plumbers, kitchen porters, accountants etc. Priests at least gave up everything in the service of others. The ingratitude of some people is jaw dropping.

tylercheribini wrote: »

To paraphrase Christoper Hitchens trying to convince somebody their chosen religion is a falsehood is like trying to tell them they are not in love.

But it is not the religion as such, just the organisation. People need to separate their belief in God and Jesus with their support for the CC. The CC is a man made, and man controlled institution. If anything, adhering to the ways of the CC is against the commandment of no false Gods.

So keep you faith in God, and Jesus. Just get rid of your support for an organisation whose leader came out yesterday to say that they had let the children down.

Let them down. You let children down by not turning up to watch their football match. By forgetting their birthday.

Letting them down is not the phrase I would use for allowing and covering up years of rape, buggery and torture.

tylercheribini

Really hoping the zealots on this thread are trolls but Im more than likely sorely mistaken.

B0jangles wrote: »

So he's calling all those children liars?

All the thousands and thousands of abused children, over many decades, in countries all over the world.

All lying to make the poor little Church look bad?

shure they didn't have the balls to go to the police... or something

ohnonotgmail

realitykeeper wrote: »

You could say the same thing about plumbers, kitchen porters, accountants etc. Priests at least gave up everything in the service of others. The ingratitude of some people is jaw dropping.

People should be grateful to priests who abused children?

realitykeeper wrote: »

You could say the same thing about plumbers, kitchen porters, accountants etc. Priests at least gave up everything in the service of others. The ingratitude of some people is jaw dropping.

ah would you ever go **** yourself

B0jangles

lawred2 wrote: »

shure they didn't have the balls to go to the police... or something

The same police officers who were probably devoted members of the same priest's congregation?

Why the heck WOULDN'T they feel able to report to them that beloved Father X, who possibly officiated at the police officer's wedding, probably baptised all their kids, was a paedophile.

HMMMMM.

realitykeeper wrote: »

You could say the same thing about plumbers, kitchen porters, accountants etc. Priests at least gave up everything in the service of others. The ingratitude of some people is jaw dropping.

No I couldn't. There is no Plumber cult that actively seeks to cover up the crimes of its members. Or accountants, or kitchen porters.

Just to be sure, you are aware that this is not simply because priests raped and buggered and abused children. You do understand that the CC hierarchy actively went out to cover up the crimes? Whilst of course the likes of Brendan Smyth are terrible, in isolation they are terrible events that the person must be held accountable.

But it involved way more than that. Across the world, the CC sought to cover up, silence the victims, degrade the victims, move priests around, not tell new parishes what was coming to them etc etc etc.

Odhinn

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

A good point on the radio earlier. The church are always apologising for child abuse scandals found by civil investigations but why have the Roman organisation themselves never published an investigation they did themselves to root out child abusers? Any normal organisation would have internal inquiries to uncover rot within their own organisation.

I like that. Good one.