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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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john boye

Stephen15 wrote: »

I noticed a DB bus today sporting the new TFI logo for the first time today. I think this is good as it will give a bit more of a sense of integration in the meantime before all DB buses are eventually repainted in common livery.

Just saw it there myself for the first time. Wasn't close enough to see if it was a new brand new SG or if it was one of the earlier ones which are being repainted atm.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

All the CIE staff in the Light Rail Project Office transferred to the RPA though.

Bit of a difference there though as it was more so a case of people transferring from one publically owned body to another not a case people moving from the public sector to the private sector.

The unions won't allow more than 10%?, funny how they said originally they wouldn't allow any % be tendered, yet 10% happened and there was no strike.

The unions know better, striking against further opening of the market would be a very dangerous game especially if the EU eventually pushes the issue, take it from someone close to the industrial relations scene, the unions internal circles have made it very clear that they will never in reality take on such an issue as it could cost them (and CIE) dearly.

They did go on strike about tendering in 2015. It was only after it was agreed that no current CIE staff would have to transfer to private operators that it was agreed to by unions. They could very well push tendering through but the unions could have a few strikes here and there which would tarnish the image of the NTA.

Stephen15

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure the general populace are as actively engaged in transport issues as people here. There was a lot of sound and fury about LCC when it opened but that's gone away now. The impact on Luas has diminished and apart from a few people here, I hadn't heard anyone mention an impact to Dublin Bus. I'm not saying there isn't one, just that most people don't know/care.

Likewise, most of NBRUs campaigning has been on Twitter which will have escaped most people's attention.

Most people don't know who the NTA are or what they do. They don't care who operates their buses or trains as long as they operate at all.

I agree but if there is a strike the NTA would likely get the blame if the opposition pr from the unions and opposition political parties is good enough. It's also could be a fruitless exercise that would create more trouble than it's worth as it could very well be likely that the NTA could have difficulty attracting bids for tenders. They already had enough trouble attracting Go-Ahead.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

The difference between this and the Luas is the Luas was never run by CIE. No CIE staff were ever asked to transfer to Conex/Veoila/Transdev.

All the CIE staff in the Light Rail Project Office transferred to the RPA though.

Stephen15 wrote: »

The unions won't allow more than 10% be tendered out. There will be strikes and the NTA will get the blame for the disruption which they cause it would be political suicide as far as the NTA are concerned who are already in the doghouse after Luas CC and the announcement of Metrolink and BC.

The unions won't allow more than 10%?, funny how they said originally they wouldn't allow any % be tendered, yet 10% happened and there was no strike.

The unions know better, striking against further opening of the market would be a very dangerous game especially if the EU eventually pushes the issue, take it from someone close to the industrial relations scene, the unions internal circles have made it very clear that they will never in reality take on such an issue as it could cost them (and CIE) dearly.

GM228

salonfire wrote: »

What are you talking about ?

The precedent has already been set. Look at the LUAS even, originally given to CIE but (rightfully) taken off them and outsourced to a private operator.

10% is just the beginning.

LUAS was never "given" to CIE, LUAS was actually the brainchild of CIE as a result of a CIE/Dublin City Council recommendation from the 1995 Dublin Transport Initiative. CIE pushed for the project often with government opposition. The CIE Light Rail Project Office was born and CIE developed the initial LUAS project and build in house, however it was decided to operate the system privately in 2000 in case LUAS operated at a loss so there would be no loss to the state/CIE and the RPA took over the development, build and tendering of the project as a statutory duty.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

I still do think that the tendering is a pointless exercise. The NTA or the government don't have the balls to take more than 10% off Dublin Bus and introduce more tendering ie have 4 or 5 different companies with 10 or 20% of the routes each.

It would be political suicide for them to do that as there would be strike after strike and they would get the blame from commuters. It's not the unions the NTA fear it's the backlash they will receive from angry commuters if there is a strike.
Most bus users couldn't care less about unions unless there is a strike that causes disruption. If there is a strike most people would rather if the unions demands were met so their lives wouldn't be disrupted.

I get the impression the NTA had difficulty attracting a private operator to tender for the routes and they gave the tender to Go-Ahead because they were the first somewhat suitable private company to express an interest.

I hope it all works out well for Go-Ahead. I use some of the services which are being tendered and hopefully they will offer an improvement but I wouldn't be sure. I'm still concerned that they don't appear to have any outstations from their Ballymount depot and I did hear that all breaks will be taken in Ballymount which seems riddiculous especially as DB staff already take breaks in the likes of DL and Bray.

i don't think it's that they don't have the balls, it's more that they need to see how this is all going to work first, and taking a small part allows them to do this without causing issues to the whole lot should things go wrong. even once the tender is issued it's still a learning period.

salonfire wrote: »

What are you talking about ?

The precedent has already been set. Look at the LUAS even, originally given to CIE but (rightfully) taken off them and outsourced to a private operator.

10% is just the beginning.

luas was never given to CIE. CIE only designed it. luas has been tendered since the beginning of it's operation. no precedent has been set as it stands, as we cannot say for sure yet if this is the beginning or whether it will always be that only a small proportion of the market will open up (after all, a few companies operating subsidized services will require paying for)

Stephen15 wrote: »

The difference between this and the Luas is the Luas was never run by CIE. No CIE staff were ever asked to transfer to Conex/Veoila/Transdev.

The unions won't allow more than 10% be tendered out. There will be strikes and the NTA will get the blame for the disruption which they cause it would be political suicide as far as the NTA are concerned who are already in the doghouse after Luas CC and the announcement of Metrolink and BC.

to be fair, the unions can't stop tendering. i can't see them striking over it either as they will be in the companies operating the routes, if any more are tendered out. realistically, dublin bus and bus eireann will probably remain the majority company.

markpb

Stephen15 wrote: »

who are already in the doghouse after Luas CC and the announcement of Metrolink and BC.

I'm not sure the general populace are as actively engaged in transport issues as people here. There was a lot of sound and fury about LCC when it opened but that's gone away now. The impact on Luas has diminished and apart from a few people here, I hadn't heard anyone mention an impact to Dublin Bus. I'm not saying there isn't one, just that most people don't know/care.

Likewise, most of NBRUs campaigning has been on Twitter which will have escaped most people's attention.

Most people don't know who the NTA are or what they do. They don't care who operates their buses or trains as long as they operate at all.

Stephen15

salonfire wrote: »

What are you talking about ?

The precedent has already been set. Look at the LUAS even, originally given to CIE but (rightfully) taken off them and outsourced to a private operator.

10% is just the beginning.

The difference between this and the Luas is the Luas was never run by CIE. No CIE staff were ever asked to transfer to Conex/Veoila/Transdev.

The unions won't allow more than 10% be tendered out. There will be strikes and the NTA will get the blame for the disruption which they cause it would be political suicide as far as the NTA are concerned who are already in the doghouse after Luas CC and the announcement of Metrolink and BC.

[Deleted User]

Stephen15 wrote: »

I still do think that the tendering is a pointless exercise. The NTA or the government don't have the balls to take more than 10% off Dublin Bus and introduce more tendering ie have 4 or 5 different companies with 10 or 20% of the routes each.

It would be political suicide for them to do that as there would be strike after strike and they would get the blame from commuters. It's not the unions the NTA fear it's the backlash they will receive from angry commuters if there is a strike.
Most bus users couldn't care less about unions unless there is a strike that causes disruption. If there is a strike most people would rather if the unions demands were met so their lives wouldn't be disrupted.

I get the impression the NTA had difficulty attracting a private operator to tender for the routes and they gave the tender to Go-Ahead because they were the first somewhat suitable private company to express an interest.

I hope it all works out well for Go-Ahead. I use some of the services which are being tendered and hopefully they will offer an improvement but I wouldn't be sure. I'm still concerned that they don't appear to have any outstations from their Ballymount depot and I did hear that all breaks will be taken in Ballymount which seems riddiculous especially as DB staff already take breaks in the likes of DL and Bray.

What are you talking about ?

The precedent has already been set. Look at the LUAS even, originally given to CIE but (rightfully) taken off them and outsourced to a private operator.

10% is just the beginning.

Stephen15

I still do think that the tendering is a pointless exercise. The NTA or the government don't have the balls to take more than 10% off Dublin Bus and introduce more tendering ie have 4 or 5 different companies with 10 or 20% of the routes each.

It would be political suicide for them to do that as there would be strike after strike and they would get the blame from commuters. It's not the unions the NTA fear it's the backlash they will receive from angry commuters if there is a strike.
Most bus users couldn't care less about unions unless there is a strike that causes disruption. If there is a strike most people would rather if the unions demands were met so their lives wouldn't be disrupted.

I get the impression the NTA had difficulty attracting a private operator to tender for the routes and they gave the tender to Go-Ahead because they were the first somewhat suitable private company to express an interest.

I hope it all works out well for Go-Ahead. I use some of the services which are being tendered and hopefully they will offer an improvement but I wouldn't be sure. I'm still concerned that they don't appear to have any outstations from their Ballymount depot and I did hear that all breaks will be taken in Ballymount which seems riddiculous especially as DB staff already take breaks in the likes of DL and Bray.

Stephen15

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Nothing new there surely. Seen it a few times.

One thing I did notice during the week and passed comment to an uninterested friend (I know right), that they had the new TFI logo on 15x and 16x buses that passed by on Camden At but I saw but the 182 one with the old "Transport for Ireland" logo.

I've never seen it before until today although I think DB might be starting to apply the new TFI logo at the back of SGs as I noticed a few buses which did not have any TFI logo old or new recently. I don't know why because new Bus Eireann buses have had the new TFI logo on them for number of years now.

BonnieSituation

Stephen15 wrote: »

I noticed a DB bus today sporting the new TFI logo for the first time today. I think this is good as it will give a bit more of a sense of integration in the meantime before all DB buses are eventually repainted in common livery.

Nothing new there surely. Seen it a few times.

One thing I did notice during the week and passed comment to an uninterested friend (I know right), that they had the new TFI logo on 15x and 16x buses that passed by on Camden At but I saw but the 182 one with the old "Transport for Ireland" logo.

Stephen15

I noticed a DB bus today sporting the new TFI logo for the first time today. I think this is good as it will give a bit more of a sense of integration in the meantime before all DB buses are eventually repainted in common livery.

WomanSkirtFan8

Saw the first Go-Ahead single decker bus on driver training duties at Bray DART station about ten past twelve this afternoon.

BonnieSituation

markpb wrote: »

This is all rubbish. Individual operators shouldn't be publishing any customer facing information on their websites and definitely shouldn't have trip planners. The NTA site already does this, there's no need for it to be replicated.

It's worth remembering that DB revamped their website and bought a new journey planner *after* the NTA introduced theirs.

And for a long while had the superior App.

DB like any of us can use the freely available data to do anything with it as can GA.

Had it been said anywhere that DB would remove GA services from it's planner or site?

Kh1993

Another free pass for the NTA, essentially. It's always "it may have been their fault", or "give them time" with the NTA, but frankly they are paid to do a job and are well on their way to making another mess of the situation, as they did with the introduction of the 139, as they did leaving the Bus Connects plan to the mercy of the opposition before finally defending it, as they did with not releasing details of the tender, and so on, and so on. Tendering is their baby, its up to them to finally get their act together and sort it out, not to be helped by others.

When It's DB's fault they get blamed, when it's Aircoach they get blamed etc, but when it's the NTA's fault? Oh no, it's actually DB/IR/GA/insert company here' fault for not helping out the poor NTA. The NTA can do no wrong, folks.

(Also their journey planner and real time on phones is absolutely trash).

IE 222

dfx- wrote: »

I can't believe that the heat is still being pushed on DB for this. Or GA for that matter really.

It makes no difference who is funding it. The NTA wanted this tendering for companies to compete with each other - essentially to push DB out - and that's what they will do. It's up to the NTA to bring them back together, but if that is what they wanted to do, they'd have done that and encouraged that long before now.

It's rich to now play the state funding card. The NTA are reaping what they sowed.

The NTA or Anne Graham don't want their names plastered all over this yet in case it all goes tits up or massive industrial unrest is created costing the state many more millions of Euro.

As it stands they can sit quietly in the background and pull the plug on the project in a couple of years time if needs be while saving grace on their other fantasy projects and most of public and politicians will be none the wiser. If the worse does happen it will just look like BE and DB got their own way by thrown all their toys out of the pram. Meanwhile Anne will get the bigger appointment for her troubles and heroics.

KD345

As someone who uses timetables a lot to plan trips, the Dublin Bus website is far more user friendly that the National Journey Planner for timetables. It’s a pity, because the timetables on a-b are more detailed, but the layout and ease of access is really quite poor. You must download a PDF and the file does not tell you which day of the week the departures are for. This is Route 11
http://www.a-b.ie/nta/TTB/EFA02__00003756.pdf

What publicity have NTA done to drive awareness of them being the place to provide timetable information for passengers? Dublin Bus are far more active in pushing out route information. The NTA should have spent the last few years creating a brand that Dubliners go to for travel information.

For example, a lot of queries exist about the fare structure with Go Ahead, yet when you look at the Leap Card information page there is no reference on whether Go Ahead will be part of the daily Leap capping system. https://about.leapcard.ie/about/fares-discounts
The bottom of the pages mentions other operators but not Go Ahead, and you’re advised to go to that operator website for more details. It’s like nobody is paying any attention to the passengers.

I’m guessing Dublin Bus get thousands of clicks onto their timetable pages every day. I believe it would be wrong to shut this down and redirect until a better customer friendly site exists. I’m not talking about anything expensive or a flashy design, just a list of bus, train and tram routes in the city regardless of the operator. Click the route and get the timetable in a clearly presented format.

dfx-

I can't believe that the heat is still being pushed on DB for this. Or GA for that matter really.

It makes no difference who is funding it. The NTA wanted this tendering for companies to compete with each other - essentially to push DB out - and that's what they will do. It's up to the NTA to bring them back together, but if that is what they wanted to do, they'd have done that and encouraged that long before now.

It's rich to now play the state funding card. The NTA are reaping what they sowed.

IE 222

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus isn't a commercial company though, we're told it's something better than that and not like the bad commercial companies who put their own interests ahead of that of the public.

It's paid tens of millions per year and other grants and tens of millions in vehicles provided for it to run a network of the routes for the benefit of the public. If it decides that it doesn't want to run the routes for the benefit of the public, despite being contracted to do so then essentially it's sticking two fingers up at the public it is paid to serve.

The many hundreds of thousands of regular public transport customers must always come before the few staff in Dublin Bus. I will always support the former over the later because I care about public transport provision and the public interest far more than the commercial interests of a company that claims it is not commercial and has no commercial interests which apparently make it better.

DB also have a responsibility to be cost effective for the public. Not sure were your going with this but they get paid for the services they provide. If that costs tens of millions well then that's the cost and as you are aware if DB don't do it someone else will get the millions and fleet of buses handed to them to do it.

That's the point, it IS running the services it's been contracted to do. They competed for the routes and lost the bid. The NTA are the ones sticking the fingers up.

Again not sure why you seem to be taking this DB employee's v the public agenda. At the end of the DB is business one way or another and will have its own interests and employee relations to deal with. The NTA look after the public's interests. If DB don't run a service they don't get paid, if DB don't meet the requirements they don't get the job simple as.

markpb

This is all rubbish. Individual operators shouldn't be publishing any customer facing information on their websites and definitely shouldn't have trip planners. The NTA site already does this, there's no need for it to be replicated.

It's worth remembering that DB revamped their website and bought a new journey planner *after* the NTA introduced theirs.

IE 222

devnull wrote: »

At the end of the day Dublin Bus is not a commercial company we are often told, we are told that it is better than a commercial company because it puts the needs of public transport users ahead of commercial and self interests and when it comes to a conflict between those two it would pick the former.

Dublin Bus cannot have a weird hybrid of having the best parts of being a private commercial company and the best parts of being a public company and not have the downsides of either.

No, they should be all working together to do what is in the interest of the public as that is the whole idea of a public transport system. They are competing for tenders but the network should be integrated like in London and many other cities.

Not really, the problem is that some people seem to think that operators are more important than the level of service and information offered to customers for a supposedly public service operated for the public.

I care for the many who use transport services and the tourists, the people travelling to school, work, and going about their daily life using public transport rather than the comparatively few working for Dublin Bus.

The first priority for a publicly owned public transport company should be to serve the public. The argument for such companies instead of commercial companies is they put the public before any self gain or commercial interests. If they do not do that, then there is little reason to have a publicly owned public transport company at all.

They are and will provide the bus services they are asked to provide. It's the NTA turning the tables here making DB compete for routes they once provided on behave of state, something you are highly supportive of. They work along side sister companies but are not apart off or in business with the NTA or any other bus company. You wanted the bus market to become competitive this is all part and parcel of that. You can't expect DB to pick up the pieces of others short comings and provide resources for operations they have been removed from.

It's up to the NTA to provide this for the public their the ones charged with this task. Again it's up to the NTA to set the service levels, the bus companies need to focus on meeting the requirements set out to them and looking after their own affairs.

You seem to chop and change from whose responsible when it suits you. The NTA are the ones in charge. Dublin Bus only provide bus services when asked to now. They are no longer the ones who create new routes or introduce new services. That role has been taken away from DB and transferred to the NTA, something the NTA have made sure to prove.

DB serve the public the way they've been asked to serve.

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

Dart and Luas are rival competitors.

Dublin Bus isn't a commercial company though, we're told it's something better than that and not like the bad commercial companies who put their own interests ahead of that of the public.

It's paid tens of millions per year and other grants and tens of millions in vehicles provided for it to run a network of the routes for the benefit of the public. If it decides that it doesn't want to run the routes for the benefit of the public, despite being contracted to do so then essentially it's sticking two fingers up at the public it is paid to serve.

The many hundreds of thousands of regular public transport customers must always come before the few staff in Dublin Bus. I will always support the former over the later because I care about public transport provision and the public interest far more than the commercial interests of a company that claims it is not commercial and has no commercial interests which apparently make it better.

IE 222

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It is up to the NTA to have a timetabling site. This should be linked by any other bus website, there should not be sites giving incomplete info.

Agree DB should probably add a link at the bottom of their website to the NTAs site for a complete timetable of "other services".

The NTA took control of this and decided to change things around. It's up to them to see this through and provide all general information required and not expect other companies to provide it for them.

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

The DART and the Luas are on the DB journey planner so I don't see why GAI services wouldn't be there too.

Dart and Luas are not rival competitors.

IE 222

xper wrote: »

Why? Because DB is being funded by the state to provide a public transport service, its clearly in the public interest to do so as part of providing that service and and they (at least should be) contractually obliged to do so as part of their franchise.

Want an example? Look at any private train operator's website in the UK where you can find routes and book a ticket between any two stations on the whole network, not just the services of that operator. Yes, even in the clusterfck that is the privatised British railways system, this is done right.

Same applies to Go Ahead and any other future franchise holder.

Dublin bus is no longer responsible for them routes anymore. The NTA decided to take them routes away from DB. As a result you can not expect DB to willingly promote and provide resources to routes they no longer serve. DB is ran independent and competes for routes.

I've check some London bus operators sites and none seem to show competitors timetables. Trains are different in the sense that people travel between stations and not necessarily routes.

devnull

Dravokivich wrote: »

Then Dublin bus field complaints about go ahead info being outdated?

The should not have to retain another's companies details.

If NTA want to drive a one stop shop, they should provide one. Each operator shouldn't be lumbered with it.

There should be a one stop shop and all operators should be forced to use it for real time info. Timetabling info and journey planning because that would be better for customers.

I agree that having each operator show each others routes is not ideal but if someone is blocking a one stop shop then there has to be a solution that puts the interests of users ahead of operators.

Do you think London bus would be better if it was fragmented into ten different sites that deny each other exist for journey planning purposes or do you think having a one stop shop makes it easier.

The customer has to come first. I would like Dublin Bus to continue to exist because I believe that it has a place in our city. But if it is determined to continually put its own interests ahead of the public despite being paid by the public to do the opposite then the main benefit of keeping it is gone.

People need to look at the public interest. Not that of the operator. If Dublin Bus wants to look after commercial interests it should look at registering some commercial routes and it can do what it wants with them.

Dravokivich

devnull wrote: »

They should both show it - agreed - any operator getting funding from the state to run public transport services should have to show all of that info.

Then Dublin bus field complaints about go ahead info being outdated?

The should not have to retain another's companies details.

If NTA want to drive a one stop shop, they should provide one. Each operator shouldn't be lumbered with it.

devnull

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If the Go Ahead site isn’t showing DB info the DB site obv shouldn’t show Go Ahead into. What’s fair is fair.

They should both show it - agreed - any operator getting funding from the state to run public transport services should have to show all of that info.

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

DB have no commitment to these GA routes anymore. It's up to the NTA to create an umbrella timetabing site not DB or GA. I can't think of any company that would provide a link to another providers services.

At the end of the day Dublin Bus is not a commercial company we are often told, we are told that it is better than a commercial company because it puts the needs of public transport users ahead of commercial and self interests and when it comes to a conflict between those two it would pick the former.

Dublin Bus cannot have a weird hybrid of having the best parts of being a private commercial company and the best parts of being a public company and not have the downsides of either.

DB and GA will be competing against each other from here on that's the reality of opening up the market.

No, they should be all working together to do what is in the interest of the public as that is the whole idea of a public transport system. They are competing for tenders but the network should be integrated like in London and many other cities.

Some people have a serious hard on for bashing DB.

Not really, the problem is that some people seem to think that operators are more important than the level of service and information offered to customers for a supposedly public service operated for the public.

I care for the many who use transport services and the tourists, the people travelling to school, work, and going about their daily life using public transport rather than the comparatively few working for Dublin Bus.

The first priority for a publicly owned public transport company should be to serve the public. The argument for such companies instead of commercial companies is they put the public before any self gain or commercial interests. If they do not do that, then there is little reason to have a publicly owned public transport company at all.