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Bad reference

Wildly Boaring

I left a company over a year ago due to problems with my manager and his manager.

In the interim I worked temperory and am now happy in a new role.

Had a few interviews and informal meetings with similar employers over that time period and all offered me jobs.

However the director of one company did ring me to warn me that one of the guys I fell out with was giving me a bad reference. I had not offered him as a referee but it's a small country.

A second company who offered me a role then told me there could be problems as apparently their client were unhappy with me. Company believed they could easily put me in but I asked them to leave it. This client also deal a lot with my former employer.

I left on good terms with the rest of the company and would still be in contact with some directors. They ask me back every few months and I give a polite no.

I also do not bring up the fact that these 2 guys have since lost the entire team that I worked with. And the replacements want away too.

Should I let sleeping dogs lie?

It has cost me one good role.

Where does this thing of "you're not allowed give a bad reference" come from. Is it law?

I could write an email to the 2 copying in their director. A one liner

X and Y
A prospective employer has made me aware that one of you has given me a bad reference.
Please desist.
Regards
WB

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Lemongrease

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

X and Y
A prospective employer has made me aware that one of you has given me a bad reference.
Please desist.
Regards
WB

That’s slander. You can sue and take them to the cleaners.

smelly sock

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

I left a company over a year ago due to problems with my manager and his manager.

In the interim I worked temperory and am now happy in a new role.

Had a few interviews and informal meetings with similar employers over that time period and all offered me jobs.

However the director of one company did ring me to warn me that one of the guys I fell out with was giving me a bad reference. I had not offered him as a referee but it's a small country.

A second company who offered me a role then told me there could be problems as apparently their client were unhappy with me. Company believed they could easily put me in but I asked them to leave it. This client also deal a lot with my former employer.

I left on good terms with the rest of the company and would still be in contact with some directors. They ask me back every few months and I give a polite no.

I also do not bring up the fact that these 2 guys have since lost the entire team that I worked with. And the replacements want away too.

Should I let sleeping dogs lie?

It has cost me one good role.

Where does this thing of "you're not allowed give a bad reference" come from. Is it law?

I could write an email to the 2 copying in their director. A one liner

X and Y
A prospective employer has made me aware that one of you has given me a bad reference.
Please desist.
Regards
WB

Legal advice maybe? If its untrue its defaming surely

You are entitled to your good name. As you aay its a small country and a bad name will stick.

seamus

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Where does this thing of "you're not allowed give a bad reference" come from. Is it law?

No. There is no law that says you can't give a bad reference. It's perfectly legal to give a bad reference.

The general rule of it comes from the fact that if you say something which may damage a person's reputation, that's defamation. The person whose reputation has been damaged, can take you to court, and it is up to you to prove that the things which you said were true. The defamed person does not have to prove they are untrue; they are presumed untrue until you prove otherwise.

So you can see how giving an honest but bad reference can land any company in hot water, because for the most part it can be very difficult to prove what you have said is true.

I could write an email to the 2 copying in their director. A one liner

X and Y
A prospective employer has made me aware that one of you has given me a bad reference.
Please desist.
Regards
WB

Not yet.

If you have someone you could rely on to make a phone call pretending to get a reference for you, have them call the old employer. Record the call (perfectly legal) to find out what they are saying about you.

Then you can decide what to do next. If what they say is completely outrageous and false, go talk to a solicitor. If it's kind of true-ish, but unnecessarily negative, then I'd go with;

"It has come to my attention that when contacted for a reference, you are providing information that is untrue and unreasonable. I have verified this through a recorded conversation between <insert manager's name> and a potential employer.

I will not refer any future employers to you, but if you are contacted provide them with the dates of my employment or refuse to provide any reference at all.
Any continuation of your current policy of uttering defamatory statements and I will have no choice but to initiate legal proceedings.

I will continue to randomly contact you to ensure compliance as long as I feel is reasonably necessary".

Don't send it to the managers. Send it to the company director and any HR/senior people they have. If you want, you could attach the recording just so they know you're genuine.

Lemongrease wrote: »

That’s slander. You can sue and take them to the cleaners.

Slander no longer exists.

You can sue for defamation in any case, but someone saying something bad about you isn't illegal and doesn't automatically entitle you to compensation. There are several defences to defamation, so you'd want to be reasonably certain that they can't prove what they've said, before taking action.

Wildly Boaring

I suppose the problem here is that it is less a reference and more word of mouth.

No one was pointed to these guys as a reference. More that people know each other. So when my name popped up and former employer on CV. People talked to one of these 2 as they know them.

So if you rang my former employer for a reference you'd probably get a neutral one or a good one.

seamus

OK, that's still not really an issue. If they're talking to someone else about you in relation to employment, then they're acting in their capacity as employees of the company, and any defamation is actionable by you against both the employee and the company. It doesn't matter if it's off the record over a pint, or on the phone during the work day.

I'd go back to the original email idea, but direct it at the company - i.e. the directors and management - rather than at the managers themselves. CC the individuals themselves if you want.

"It has come to my attention that when contacted for a reference, employees of yours (<insert names>) are providing information that is untrue and defamatory.

I do not refer any employers to you, but if you are contacted, whether formally through direct channels or informally through personal contact, provide them with the dates of my employment or refuse to provide any reference at all.

Any continuation of your current policy of uttering defamatory statements and I will have no choice but to initiate legal proceedings."

Have a think about the last line. If you're in a small industry you don't want a reputation as an ambulance chaser, so something a little softer may be more appropriate, e.g.

"Whatever disagreements may have come between individuals in the past does not justify these malicious attempts to damage my reputation into the future, and I must demand that you cease and desist".

duffman13

This is one of those situations that need strong action from you. People suggesting the legal option are right in a perfect world but you are not going to get that employer in question to go on record to say he got a bad reference about you.

Either a phone call or a visit to senior management. Explain the situation, let them know you've a record of what's happened and if something further happens that you'll be going legal. This should nip it in the bud.

I had a similar incident were one of my direct lines did the same to one of his direct lines. The person in question approached me and I gave a direct number to myself for any future references. I had no proof of what had occurred but best to lean on the side of caution. Both myself and the ex employee were happy and a conversation was had internally around following correct etiquette with reference requests.

Wildly Boaring

duffman13 wrote: »

This is one of those situations that need strong action from you. People suggesting the legal option are right in a perfect world but you are not going to get that employer in question to go on record to say he got a bad reference about you.

Either a phone call or a visit to senior management. Explain the situation, let them know you've a record of what's happened and if something further happens that you'll be going legal. This should nip it in the bud.

I had a similar incident were one of my direct lines did the same to one of his direct lines. The person in question approached me and I gave a direct number to myself for any future references. I had no proof of what had occurred but best to lean on the side of caution. Both myself and the ex employee were happy and a conversation was had internally around following correct etiquette with reference requests.

Seems fair.
Ideally I'm looking to keep my good relationship with their superiors and shut them up.
As per the OP I get on well with several directors in the company.
Have worked for them directly on other projects and 2 of them have asked me back in the interim for other roles.

davo10

Do you know what was actually said?

One of the most common questions asked during phone calls is "would you employ him/her again?", if the answer is "no", nothing more needs to be said.

OMM 0000

Lemongrease wrote: »

That’s slander. You can sue and take them to the cleaners.

Only if what they're saying is untrue, which may not be the case here.

Blazer

davo10 wrote: »

Do you know what was actually said?

One of the most common questions asked during phone calls is "would you employ him/her again?", if the answer is "no", nothing more needs to be said.

He didn’t give them as a reference.
If someone from a company is passing around information that is not aligned with the company line then it can be very serious for that person.
Its one of the reasons most HR departments in companies will no longer provide a reference apart from the standard xxx worked here from x to y.
I’d be having a word with that HR dept and inform them that so and so is providing a bad reference to people unsolicited and that further legal action will be required if it continues.
In fact I would bring up during interviews that one of the reasons you left was because of this manager if that was the case and you can mention that his entire team and the subsequent one left alsI.
I’ve seen managers lose their jobs or be moved when an entire team has quit or moved. To lose an entire team once is a bad sign, to lose 2 teams is a sign this person is not suited to a managerial role.

mvl

Blazer wrote: »

He didn’t give them as a reference.
If someone from a company is passing around information that is not aligned with the company line then it can be very serious for that person.
Its one of the reasons most HR departments in companies will no longer provide a reference apart from the standard xxx worked here from x to y.
I’d be having a word with that HR dept and inform them that so and so is providing a bad reference to people unsolicited and that further legal action will be required if it continues.
In fact I would bring up during interviews that one of the reasons you left was because of this manager if that was the case and you can mention that his entire team and the subsequent one left alsI.
I’ve seen managers lose their jobs or be moved when an entire team has quit or moved. To lose an entire team once is a bad sign, to lose 2 teams is a sign this person is not suited to a managerial role.

Does GDRP not improve something here ? e.g. I understand that someone who was not approved as reference by OP cannot be given unsolicited references anymore.

seamus

mvl wrote: »

Does GDRP not improve something here ? e.g. I understand that someone who was not approved as reference by OP cannot be given unsolicited references anymore.

GDPR only prevents recorded information from being passed on without your consent.

GDPR does not and cannot apply to personal and undocumented communications. That is, "What did you think of John", "He was here for a while, a few months I think, bit of a messer, wouldn't hire him for another job".

You can't stop that, it doesn't qualify as "data" under GDPR.

mvl

seamus wrote: »

GDPR only prevents recorded information from being passed on without your consent.

GDPR does not and cannot apply to personal and undocumented communications. That is, "What did you think of John", "He was here for a while, a few months I think, bit of a messer, wouldn't hire him for another job".

You can't stop that, it doesn't qualify as "data" under GDPR.

ok, that is the HR recorded information.
- are you saying you are not expected in same time to validate all individual names from your reference list ?

daheff

I think your first problem is going to be can you prove they said what you were told? If the person who told you about the bad reference shuts up/denies all knowledge you dont have a leg to stand on legally.

If you do send a notice to the company, i'd suggest you send it via your solicitor rather than yourself. I would also throw in GDPR (as it is a GDPR breach to provide information about you to a third party without your consent).

good luck getting a job. might be worthwhile taking anything offered just to get some positive references for the future (As new employers tend to want to talk to recent companies you worked for).

seamus

mvl wrote: »

ok, that is the HR recorded information.
- are you saying you are not expected in same time to validate all individual names from your reference list ?

I don't really understand your question.

It's something I don't do, but realistically the individual should validate all of the names on their reference list, and we should maintain a list of professional references versus personal references.

Professional references are company HR departments who can verify that you worked at the company, for how long, and what position(s) you held.

Personal references are individuals who can attest to the intangible aspects - how well you work, the stuff you do, etc etc.

In terms of job applications, we tend to mix the the two; I know any of my references are people I used to work with in the company rather than their HR departments. Even though I don't actually know where these people work any more.

Bandana boy

re your word of an informal bad reference .
What you have here is at best 3rd hand word of mouth gossip , that will be impossible to prove .
re the company you previously dealt with saying they would rather not deal with you again , that is their prerogative and I think you find it very hard to prove that this relates back to your manager bad mouthing you to that company .

As a standard reference request by your admission is currently professional I think sending a letter to your previous employer alleging things you cannot prove , you could actually make a current positive reference a future negative reference.
Letters like this could prove the manager you don't likes opinion for the rest of that company that currently respects you.

OMM 0000

I've worked with some terrible people over the years. Let me give a particular example: a girl who would come in hungover every day, and just surf the web. She had been fired from previous jobs. She refused to accept she had a problem. For whatever reason, the company both of us were working for would not fire her.

If someone I knew contacted me and said Hey we're thinking of hiring a girl called X who used to work at Y. Didn't you work there? Do you know her?

I would of course tell him Yeah I used to work with X at Y, and she was a mess there. Maybe she has sobered up now but I think she's a risky hire.

Do you guys really think this shouldn't be allowed, and I should be punished for this?

cdeb

Yeah, I don't see why the OP should think that they can send vaguely threatening e-mails to a former employer effectively challenging their freedom of speech.

References are reasonably straightforward. If it's in writing, it will almost certainly not say anything bad, but a vague "X worked here from dd/mm/yy to dd/mm/yy" tells a lot without saying anything. If it's verbal, you can't prove anything. If it's from someone who isn't a referee, I don't know if it could even count as a reference.

Either way, to send the e-mail as proposed reflects quite badly on you, I think.

Blazer

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've worked with some terrible people over the years. Let me give a particular example: a girl who would come in hungover every day, and just surf the web. She had been fired from previous jobs. She refused to accept she had a problem. For whatever reason, the company both of us were working for would not fire her.

If someone I knew contacted me and said Hey we're thinking of hiring a girl called X who used to work at Y. Didn't you work there? Do you know her?

I would of course tell him Yeah I used to work with X at Y, and she was a mess there. Maybe she has sobered up now but I think she's a risky hire.

Do you guys really think this shouldn't be allowed, and I should be punished for this?

Well if you’re going to badmouth someone be prepared for the consequences. What happens if she took you to court for defamation and your company didn’t back you up?

28064212

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've worked with some terrible people over the years. Let me give a particular example: a girl who would come in hungover every day, and just surf the web. She had been fired from previous jobs. She refused to accept she had a problem. For whatever reason, the company both of us were working for would not fire her.

If someone I knew contacted me and said Hey we're thinking of hiring a girl called X who used to work at Y. Didn't you work there? Do you know her?

I would of course tell him Yeah I used to work with X at Y, and she was a mess there. Maybe she has sobered up now but I think she's a risky hire.

Do you guys really think this shouldn't be allowed, and I should be punished for this?

And how do you distinguish that from someone bad-mouthing someone with lies? Say the woman in question finds out what you said, and denies it. It's now one person's word against another, and she is quite right to defend her good name. Unless you can prove that what you're saying is true, you're going to be in trouble in court. The onus of proof in a defamation case is on the defendant i.e. you have to prove that what you're saying is true

seamus

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Do you guys really think this shouldn't be allowed, and I should be punished for this?

I don't think anyone on the thread has said this shouldn't be allowed or should include punishment.

Simply that an individual who has been badmouthed has a right to legal recourse, and it is up to the person doing the badmouthing to justify it.

In the example you give, you can't prove that it's true, which leaves you in trouble to start with.

It could potentially be defended as an honest opinion under qualified privilege. That is, you believed you had an moral obligation to relay that information, the other person had a moral right to know it, and the information you relayed was (as far as you know) an honest and reasonable belief.

Of course, if the plaintiff can show that you had a reason to be malicious (say a one-night stand or a grudge), then you might be boned.

Whether any of the above applies in the OP's case is irrelevant until/unless it becomes a legal matter.

He is perfectly entitled to demand that they stop. That doesn't mean they have to.

hots

28064212 wrote: »

And how do you distinguish that from someone bad-mouthing someone with lies? Say the woman in question finds out what you said, and denies it. It's now one person's word against another, and she is quite right to defend her good name. Unless you can prove that what you're saying is true, you're going to be in trouble in court. The onus of proof in a defamation case is on the defendant i.e. you have to prove that what you're saying is true

What about saying things like "I wouldn't hire them again" etc.? Can't get raked over the coals unless you say something fairly specific I would have thought.

28064212

hots wrote: »

What about saying things like "I wouldn't hire them again" etc.? Can't get raked over the coals unless you say something fairly specific I would have thought.

"I wouldn't hire her again" - it's a personal opinion, I can't see any circumstances where that could be considered defamatory*
"I wouldn't hire her again because she's a bad worker" - not very specific, but you're still being defamatory, you would need to be able to back up the statement that she is a bad worker

* IANAL, get a proper HR department

davo10

Blazer wrote: »

He didn’t give them as a reference.
If someone from a company is passing around information that is not aligned with the company line then it can be very serious for that person.
Its one of the reasons most HR departments in companies will no longer provide a reference apart from the standard xxx worked here from x to y.
I’d be having a word with that HR dept and inform them that so and so is providing a bad reference to people unsolicited and that further legal action will be required if it continues.
In fact I would bring up during interviews that one of the reasons you left was because of this manager if that was the case and you can mention that his entire team and the subsequent one left alsI.
I’ve seen managers lose their jobs or be moved when an entire team has quit or moved. To lose an entire team once is a bad sign, to lose 2 teams is a sign this person is not suited to a managerial role.

That's the good thing about asking if you would hire them again, you are not giving out any information whatsoever, you don't say why you wouldn't hire them again, it's not defamatory. In most industries, managers/owners/HR know someone in the company, or/and there is a courtesy/understanding between managers that an off the record review will go no further. I'm really surprised the op was told about the reference given by someone not on her list.

OMM 0000

Blazer wrote: »

Well if you’re going to badmouth someone be prepared for the consequences. What happens if she took you to court for defamation and your company didn’t back you up?

It's trivial to prove what I said is true. Her social media is full of drunken comments at 4 AM.

She'd also have to prove what I said.

It's he said she said.

Let's be real, there would be no court case.

PawneeRanger

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Seems fair.
Ideally I'm looking to keep my good relationship with their superiors and shut them up.
As per the OP I get on well with several directors in the company.
Have worked for them directly on other projects and 2 of them have asked me back in the interim for other roles.

OP, if you don't want to go the heavy route, have you considered having a conversation with the directors in the company that you have a good relationship with?

Maybe an informal chat of "This is what is coming back to me and, while I don't want to go down the legal action road, it needs to stop."

mvl

seamus wrote: »

I don't really understand your question.

It's something I don't do, but realistically the individual should validate all of the names on their reference list, and we should maintain a list of professional references versus personal references.

Professional references are company HR departments who can verify that you worked at the company, for how long, and what position(s) you held.

Personal references are individuals who can attest to the intangible aspects - how well you work, the stuff you do, etc etc.

In terms of job applications, we tend to mix the the two; I know any of my references are people I used to work with in the company rather than their HR departments. Even though I don't actually know where these people work any more.

The way I understood the OP scenario was that a "personal" reference whom he has not nominated from previous workplace is now giving feedback about him to potential employers. Is this allowed under GDRP ?
Also, are potential employers allowed to seek such feedback from just anyone from someones past employment history ? I would have thought this is only possible when the candidate confirms the individuals as valid references.

Wildly Boaring

OP here

Thanks for the input

As per OP
Happily employed and not on the lookout for stress or a new job.

I'm 75/25 to just ignore and get on with life.
In another year or 2 it will be long forgotten

To clarify

I have first hand information from the director of a prospective employer that I was badmouthed.
I know what was said and cannot repeat here as may narrow it all down too much.
He could argue that he is right, I would refute but would struggle to call it defamation or slander, could be some truth in it.
Was a low blow all the same

On the 2nd instance.
Yep difficult to prove or even insinuate that previous manager had anything to do with a client questioning me being brought into a project.
The reaction of the prospective employer was shock that the client would question my CV.
Very close ties here with these 2 managers

I suppose my main issue is that these 2 guys have lost several very good employees. They were not happy to loose me when I left. They now have the cheek to attempt to informally talk me down and at the same time their own boss is trying to rehire me.

seamus

mvl wrote: »

The way I understood the OP scenario was that a "personal" reference whom he has not nominated from previous workplace is now giving feedback about him to potential employers. Is this allowed under GDRP ?

Information stored in someone's brain is not covered under GDPR.

If someone is relaying information from memory, GDPR is not relevant. Unless the person receiving the information is storing that information, then it becomes data and it becomes relevant to GDPR.

But an informal chat without notes? Outside of the scope of GDPR.

Also, are potential employers allowed to seek such feedback from just anyone from someones past employment history ? I would have thought this is only possible when the candidate confirms the individuals as valid references.

There's no reason why opinions can't be solicited from anyone who knows the person.

mvl

seamus wrote: »

Information stored in someone's brain is not covered under GDPR.

If someone is relaying information from memory, GDPR is not relevant. Unless the person receiving the information is storing that information, then it becomes data and it becomes relevant to GDPR.

But an informal chat without notes? Outside of the scope of GDPR.

There's no reason why opinions can't be solicited from anyone who knows the person.

Thanks.

I imagine this type of "invalid reference" might need to be recorded in the HR files of the potential employers - as reason for not hiring the candidate. So could this get the potential employer in trouble ?

Unless the information comes from shared clients - when I would think it's fair enough ... imo personal opinions where the work relationship is not certified by the candidate can only be valid if they are in sync with the candidates HR file. But maybe I am just naive