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Reunification Vote Per County

Daithi_115

We all know that if the majority (2/3) Northern Ireland votes in favor of unification with the south then NI will join back with the South.

Instead of the entire population of the north should it be by each county eg. if 2/3s of Fermanagh want to unify with the south they can leave the union and join the south leaving the five counties to remain in the union.

IMO i think it should be by each county, it is unfair if a few counties want to unify only too have one or two counties say no.

Please don't attack each other for having a different opinion

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pleas advice

it's a simple majority (50% + 1), and no. Re-partition is not a solution

mazwell

Even if it passed by a majority in the north there'd still have to be a referendum here afaik

ARNOLD J RIMMER

Daithi_115 wrote: »

We all know that if the majority (2/3) Northern Ireland votes in favor of unification with the south then NI will join back with the South.

Instead of the entire population of the north should it be by each county eg. if 2/3s of Fermanagh want to unify with the south they can leave the union and join the south leaving the five counties to remain in the union.

IMO i think it should be by each county, it is unfair if a few counties want to unify only too have one or two counties say no

Does the South not get a say in Unification?

uck51js9zml2yt

ARNOLD J RIMMER wrote: »

Does the South not get a say in Unification?

It does

Daithi_115

ARNOLD J RIMMER wrote: »

Does the South not get a say in Unification?

Yes we do

ARNOLD J RIMMER

Daithi_115 wrote: »

Yes we do

So then your first line in the OP is incorrect

Daithi_115

ARNOLD J RIMMER wrote: »

So then your first line in the OP is incorrect

We have the final say if they want to join but the majority of Ireland would accept most of the counties apart from maybe Antrim and Down. If they even had a vote because it is majority unionist

blanch152

Daithi_115 wrote: »

We all know that if the majority (2/3) Northern Ireland votes in favor of unification with the south then NI will join back with the South.

Instead of the entire population of the north should it be by each county eg. if 2/3s of Fermanagh want to unify with the south they can leave the union and join the south leaving the five counties to remain in the union.

IMO i think it should be by each county, it is unfair if a few counties want to unify only too have one or two counties say no.

Please don't attack each other for having a different opinion

With the Good Friday Agreement, we renounced our claim on Northern Ireland and we agreed that it was up to the people of Northern Ireland.

A re-partitition along the lines you suggest needs an amendment of that agreement which would require a vote of the majority of people of Northern Ireland to agree to it.

ARNOLD J RIMMER

Daithi_115 wrote: »

We have the final say if they want to join but the majority of Ireland would accept most of the counties apart from maybe Antrim and Down. If they even had a vote because it is majority unionist

So what are people voting on in the South?

A United Ireland or certain County Unification?

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

we renounced our claim on Northern Ireland

We watered it down:

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland.

.. essentially in return for the British agreeing to stay out of Ireland's affairs when it comes to unification.

it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We watered it down:

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland.

.. essentially in return for the British agreeing to stay out of Ireland's affairs when it comes to unification.

it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination

Yes, we did, we watered it down, and put it up there with acknowledging our obligations to our Divine Lord, and endeavouring to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home, that is, something very aspirational and wishy-washy in nature, that has no day-to-day practical implication.

As such, not even the most hard-line NI Unionist could have a problem with it.

Anyway, that is for another thread, but the point remains that before you could have a county-by-county referendum, you would need a whole-of-Northern Ireland referendum to agree to a county-by-county referendum.

Hannibal

it's 50% +1 for it to pass not 2/3.

If it's county by county it's highly likely even now that Fermanagh, Tyrone and possibly Armagh would vote for unity. But if you want it to county by county, what if Co Derry votes to remain whereas Derry City votes 60%+ for unity. Do we take Derry City aswell?

Some unionists might enjoy shedding some of these counties to maintain some grip and retreat completely to Down and Antrim and keep their majorities.

murphaph

Daithi_115 wrote: »

We have the final say if they want to join but the majority of Ireland would accept most of the counties apart from maybe Antrim and Down. If they even had a vote because it is majority unionist

I'm from the south. I would not accept NI without those 2 counties. It'll be hard enough economically if it ever happens without the only counties that have some form of economic output!

breatheme

I've thought about this so much. I'm kind of torn on the issue. Especially post-Brexit. However, some points that have been raised before (in this thread) need to be addressed.

1. The GFA provides the pathway to uniting the 6 counties to the other 26. In order to unify NI county by county, the GFA needs to be renegotiated. That means a vote both in NI and Ireland.
2. It would be easier to solve Brexit border issues this way.
3. I'm not sure if unionists in NI would be for (gaining majority again after cutting nationalist counties off) or against (losing territory).
4. The way it is currently agreed it would make it easier to eventually unite all of NI and Ireland; in the shorter term it would faster to rejoin with Fermanagh or Armagh (for example), but in the longer term it would be harder to rejoin with Antrim (again, for example).

ELM327

If more than 2 counties vote to rejoin the free state, the remaining 2-4 won't survive on their own. It would essentially be an outpost like Gibraltar. That's not an option based on the GFA - which is not up for debate - and therefore we can discount it. Interesting thought nonetheless.

It should and does require a simple majority of 50%+1 in the North and 50%+1 in the south, to recognise the Irish state again for the first time since the 1918 Dáil.

You might even find moderate unionists voting to join the south, especially if the vote is held before Brexit, or if it's a hard brexit.

Phoebas

Daithi_115 wrote: »

IMO i think it should be by each county, it is unfair if a few counties want to unify only too have one or two counties say no.

So what happens if, say, Dublin and Kilkenny vote No?
Do they become a separate country or two separate countries?

Hurrache

Daithi_115 wrote: »

We have the final say if they want to join but the majority of Ireland would accept most of the counties apart from maybe Antrim and Down. If they even had a vote because it is majority unionist

Have their been surveys to show this? I wouldn't have thought there's much of an appetite by many.

darem93

I see your logic and it's a very interesting point but I can't see how it would work. As others have pointed out, it would get pretty messy. What if people argue the vote should be based on constituency boundaries rather than counties? It would also be very difficult for NI to continue as a state consisting of just 2/3 counties. Like wasn't that the whole point of Tyrone and Fermanagh being included in the first place, despite both having Nationalist majorities?

I would absolutely love to see re-unification happen though. However I'd imagine a referendum would be very divisive and I don't think it would pass in the North (not yet anyway). Although if Brexit does turn out to be the mess it's shaping up to be, and if the pro-unity side did make strong enough arguments anything could happen I suppose.

An Ciarraioch

Ironically, this was a proposal that the Home Rule Party proposed when it became clear that partition was unavoidable - even during that period, Fermanagh and Tyrone had nationalist majorities, and district plebiscites were occurring all over Europe, so could have solved the Border problem back then. As for now - County Derry as a whole is predominantly nationalist now, while Armagh is 50/50, so impossible to see how a three-county NI could be viable, even if overwhelming homogeneous. Best to leave time, demographics and economics take their course over the next decade before a poll is called.

briany

pleas advice wrote: »

it's a simple majority (50% + 1), and no. Re-partition is not a solution

So the Irish Boundary Commission was for nought, then.

BarryD2

The idea that anything over a bare 50% would carry re-unification is just daft. As funkey monkey says, in practice there would need to be a substantial majority and goodwill towards the concept all round, both north and south. Otherwise it's a recipe for renewed civil war.

Charles Babbage

BarryD2 wrote: »

The idea that anything over a bare 50% would carry re-unification is just daft. As funkey monkey says, in practice there would need to be a substantial majority and goodwill towards the concept all round, both north and south. Otherwise it's a recipe for renewed civil war.

So it is somehow acceptable to continue NI although a majority oppose it? NI is a colonial remnant, which was always intended to be temporary, it should not exist a second longer than necessary.

Lots of I'm alright Jack here.

blanch152

Charles Babbage wrote: »

So it is somehow acceptable to continue NI although a majority oppose it? NI is a colonial remnant, which was always intended to be temporary, it should not exist a second longer than necessary.

Lots of I'm alright Jack here.

I think a bare 51% vote in the North would give the people down South something to think about and there is no guarantee we would accept a divided North.

ArmaniJeanss

Weren't the counties scrapped in 197x, and replaced by 11 new administrative areas? So as a concept the counties really only exist from the ROI's/GAA point of view, which straight away makes it a no-no for organising the vote.

So if the OPs idea was to be followed then you'd either use these new admin areas, or else maybe the Westminster constituencies. But either would risk creating an enclave area which isn't good. So I don't think it flies as an idea.

ELM327

funkey_monkey wrote: »

51% is barely a majority and certainly not a sufficient majority for something as big as unification.
For a peaceful unification it has to be a clear majority. However, you seem to be one of those who don't give a fnck who or what gets destroyed in the process as long as you get your desire.

50%+1 is the defined dictionary definition of a majority.
If there was a 50%+1 victory in the recent 8th amendment referendum it woudl still have passed (Remember the divorce referendum??).

Anyway, the 50%+1 is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement which will not be changed or updated. Once a majority (even if by one) in the North of Ireland want to have their part of the Irish Republic recognised then it will happen and should happen , as established in the Good Friday Agreement.

SF will have to be very careful when to push for a border poll. We don't want to do it like scotland and call it too soon and lose. Because if there is a poll and it comes out against "reunification" then there wont be another one for a long time.

breatheme

funkey_monkey wrote: »

51% is barely a majority and certainly not a sufficient majority for something as big as unification.
For a peaceful unification it has to be a clear majority. However, you seem to be one of those who don't give a fnck who or what gets destroyed in the process as long as you get your desire.

However, that is not what the GFA says. In the event that NI really does vote 50% + 1 to reunify, then the most you can do is vote against it in the resulting referendum in the Republic. Should both pass, even if it is both 50% + 1, then there will be reunification. It is what was agreed in 1998.

ELM327

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Weren't the counties scrapped in 197x, and replaced by 11 new administrative areas? So as a concept the counties really only exist from the ROI's/GAA point of view, which straight away makes it a no-no for organising the vote.

So if the OPs idea was to be followed then you'd either use these new admin areas, or else maybe the Westminster constituencies. But either would risk creating an enclave area which isn't good. So I don't think it flies as an idea.

Ah yes, the old "re draw the boundary lines" trick.

I'm reminded of a former leader of sinn fein, and a small orange. Gerry Mandarin.

ELM327

breatheme wrote: »

However, that is not what the GFA says. In the event that NI really does vote 50% + 1 to reunify, then the most you can do is vote against it in the resulting referendum in the Republic. Should both pass, even if it is both 50% + 1, then there will be reunification. It is what was agreed in 1998.

I assume that's directed at the post above mine?

breatheme

Yeah, I edited it to add the quote.

ArmaniJeanss

ELM327 wrote: »

Ah yes, the old "re draw the boundary lines" trick.

I'm reminded of a former leader of sinn fein, and a small orange. Gerry Mandarin.

I think the most recent re-draw to 11 areas which took place this decade was considered fair (SF didn't object fwiw). The original 1970s redraw not so much, plenty of dodgy things there I'd expect.
Regardless I reckon the fundamental point remains that because NI no longer uses the old counties then the OPs idea to have the vote done on a county by county basis makes no sense.