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Child Item

Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

potpourri

It seems that the original grounds on which patronage of the new secondary school were awarded are not being honoured. The Church of Ireland asked to run the school on the basis that applications from children attending seven local primary schools would receive priority. People of all beliefs and none supported the their application for patronage over bids from VEC and Educate Together on the basis of this equal access.
The admission policy for 2014 (now complete) honoured and respected this undertaking
Recently an admission policy for 2015 has appeared on the school website which introduces prioritisation for Children of CofI faith. Interestingly this comes after Department of Education have made their decision.

Is this decision going to cause division in the wonderful community spirit that exists in Greystones/Delgany area?

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recedite

loyatemu wrote: »

is it? there's been a waiting list every year.

I reckon 72% of capacity. See post #379
It could expand to take 1000 pupils if there was sufficient "parental demand".... from the right sort of people.

stilltryingit

The only expansion likely is in the number of places available to Church of Ireland children from outside the area at the expense of children who attend one of the 7 local schools but who are not Church of Ireland.

Thestones

recedite wrote: »

Maybe the weekly attendance has to be kept up for a certain minimum period. Its really up to the rector to decide whether people are genuine members of the parish.
But in any case, that kind of selection criteria is secondary to the original mandate of the school, which is to provide secondary education to pupils graduating from the 6th classes of the designated feeder schools. The original mandate has nothing to do with parish boundaries, parish catchment areas, or parish membership. It is based on servicing demand from all the feeder schools within the feeder area designated by Dept. of Education.

The rector at St Patricks has a very strong opinion on how things should be, I can tell you from experience that other Cof I parishes do not operate in the strict way he does. It's disgraceful having that much power over children's education, religion shouldn't play such an important part of a child getting a school place.

loyatemu

recedite wrote: »

I reckon 72% of capacity. See post #379
It could expand to take 1000 pupils if there was sufficient "parental demand".... from the right sort of people.

I personally know of members of the local COI parish who didn't get in. The vast majority of kids in TCG are not COI.

The school is currently designed for "up to 750" students - expansion to 1000 is unlikely to happen while the school is still ramping up to the initial capacity, particularly as St. David's is running way below capacity.

Anonfish

don’t mean to stray from the topic, but does anyone here know the subject blocks/options for LC in TCG?

loyatemu

Anonfish wrote: »

don’t mean to stray from the topic, but does anyone here know the subject blocks/options for LC in TCG?

they're only starting LC classes next year - this year's 4th years have recently chosen their options.

Anonfish

loyatemu wrote: »

they're only starting LC classes next year - this year's 4th years have recently chosen their options.

Thanks for the reply, I’m just anxious to know what options were given to the 4th years (even though the senior cycle hasn’t begun yet)

loyatemu

Anonfish wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I’m just anxious to know what options were given to the 4th years (even though the senior cycle hasn’t begun yet)

best ask the school I'd say.

recedite

Two issues which were "pioneered" in the secondary school have cropped up in the local CoI national school.

1. The question of whether a school is deliberately run at below capacity in order not to dilute the CoI "ethos". In a situation where there is a shortage of school places locally, and the school is publicly funded, most people would consider this unacceptable.

2. The introduction of a piece of paper certifying "active parish affiliation" (basically; church attendance) which bumps the holder of this piece of paper further up the waiting list. Its a great recruitment vehicle for a religion which is in control of a public asset.

St Pats primary school is privately owned, but publicly funded.
Templecarrig secondary school is 100% state owned and publicly funded.

https://www.greystonesguide.ie/st-patricks-ns-principal-forced-to-resign/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-resigns-from-greystones-school-over-admissions-row-1.3573122

Thestones

recedite wrote: »

Two issues which were "pioneered" in the secondary school have cropped up in the local CoI national school.

1. The question of whether a school is deliberately run at below capacity in order not to dilute the CoI "ethos". In a situation where there is a shortage of school places locally, and the school is publicly funded, most people would consider this unacceptable.

2. The introduction of a piece of paper certifying "active parish affiliation" (basically; church attendance) which bumps the holder of this piece of paper further up the waiting list. Its a great recruitment vehicle for a religion which is in control of a public asset.

St Pats primary school is privately owned, but publicly funded.
Templecarrig secondary school is 100% state owned and publicly funded.

https://www.greystonesguide.ie/st-patricks-ns-principal-forced-to-resign/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-resigns-from-greystones-school-over-admissions-row-1.3573122

Not suprised to read this, I've had personal experience of dealing with St Patrick's a few years ago and the rector and it was clear then the principal did not agree with the path they were on, I actually am church of Ireland but in his eyes we did not attend church enough so he would not sign the form to gain admission to the school, so the people who think being church of Ireland is enough to get into the school are wrong, he wants church of Ireland but only the regular church going type. The rector was an extremely unpleasant man to deal with and it was clear he was having an increasing involvement in the school which the principal wasn't happy with. Its a pity she feels she needs to leave but can totally understand why, I wish her well,

sandyxxx

recedite wrote: »

Two issues which were "pioneered" in the secondary school have cropped up in the local CoI national school.

1. The question of whether a school is deliberately run at below capacity in order not to dilute the CoI "ethos". In a situation where there is a shortage of school places locally, and the school is publicly funded, most people would consider this unacceptable.

2. The introduction of a piece of paper certifying "active parish affiliation" (basically; church attendance) which bumps the holder of this piece of paper further up the waiting list. Its a great recruitment vehicle for a religion which is in control of a public asset.

St Pats primary school is privately owned, but publicly funded.
Templecarrig secondary school is 100% state owned and publicly funded.

https://www.greystonesguide.ie/st-patricks-ns-principal-forced-to-resign/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-resigns-from-greystones-school-over-admissions-row-1.3573122

.......Where do the the 2 high-profile public representatives stand on this?.....I find it absolutely appalling,.....especially the fact that the secondary school patronage was granted on the pretense of inclusivity that was abandoned once it came into being.....If a catholic school pulled a stunt like this there’d be uproar!

stilltryingit

I wonder if people are even contacting their public representatives on this issue? There hasn't been the outcry that one might expect. You are right, there would be far more noise if this was happening in a catholic school

The Bishop Basher

stilltryingit wrote: »

I wonder if people are even contacting their public representatives on this issue? There hasn't been the outcry that one might expect. You are right, there would be far more noise if this was happening in a catholic school

I don't have access to the figures but last time I saw the breakdown of the school population, the admissions into TC were evenly distributed and didn't appear to favour CoI families despite the appalling updates that were made to the admissions policy.

I'm open to correction on that..

There's no question that the rector has been exerting undue power over the process for CoI applicants and the manner in which this has been done is unacceptable.

However, and again, I could be mistaken, but the school admissions act should take care of all of this..

Unlike St Patrick's, as a state owned school I assume TC is not immune from the removal of the baptism barrier and the Rector can certainly no longer use it as a stick to beat parishoners into church on a Sunday morning as has been done up to now.

The Rector says there won't be any changes but if that's true himself and the board will find themselves on the wrong side of the act and open to action from the state let alone from prospective parents.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

recedite

stilltryingit wrote: »

I wonder if people are even contacting their public representatives on this issue? There hasn't been the outcry that one might expect. You are right, there would be far more noise if this was happening in a catholic school

This has slowly developed over a long period of time. As can be seen by the length of this thread, its like a boiled frog effect.
I contacted public representatives in the past about it and received either bland "holding responses" or no response at all. Basically, this is a hot potato, and they would much prefer to be seen handing out apple pie.

It does look like the legislation signed into last week will be a gamechanger for religious discrimination in secondary schools. From my reading of it, even those actually owned by the CoI (such as East Glendalough) will be prevented from discriminating. But as long as they are funded by the state, IMO they should be accessible to all citizens of the state.

There is still an exemption available for non-RC primary schools, allowing them to prioritise kids of a matching religious ethos.

recedite

Also I think its worth pointing out that the 2019 admissions policy is now illegal.

I pulled the following quote from TC school website today re the 2019 policy...

Category 0:Children of permanent staff of Temple Carrig Secondary School.

Category 1: Children attending one of the following
schools who permanently reside in the Greystones/Delgany catchment area (as delineated by area of the Church of Ireland parishes of Greystones and Delgany) at the date of application: Gaelscoil na gCloch Liath, Educate Together NS Greystones, St Brigid’s NS Greystones, St Laurence’s NS Greystones, St Kevin’s NS Greystones, Delgany NS, St Patrick’s NS Greystones, Greystones CNS Within this category, priority shall be afforded to:
(i) applicants who are siblings of children who attend the School currently or who have received and accepted an offer of a place in the School
for September 2018 or September 2019 provided the applicants meet all
other admission criteria within this category at the date of application, then to (ii) applicants with an active parish affiliation (as defined below in
Appendix 1) with the Church of Ireland parishes of Greystones or Delgany
provided the applicants meet all other admission criteria within this category at the date of application, then (iii) places shall be offered to all other applicants who meet the admission criteria in this category subject to random selection in the event of oversubscription for remaining places available.
The number of places to be allocated to children from Category 1 for
admission in September 2019 shall not exceed 132.

Category 2:
Children other than those coming within Categories 0 and 1 who permanently reside in the area delineated by the Church of Ireland parishes of Greystones, Delgany, Bray, Newcastle with Newtownmountkennedy and Calary, and Powerscourt with Kilbride and attend any of the following primary schools under the patronage of the Church of Ireland
at the date of application: St Patrick’s NS, Greystones Delgany NS
St Andrew’s NS Bray Powerscourt NS, Enniskerry St Francis NS, Newcastle
Within this category, priority shall be afforded to: (i) applicants who are siblings of children who attend the School currently or who have received and accepted an offer of a place for September 2018 or September 2019
in the School provided the applicants meet all other admission criteria within this category at the date of application, then to (ii) applicants with an active parish affiliation (as defined below in Appendix 1) with one of
the Church of Ireland parishes of Greystones, Delgany, Bray, Newcastle with Newtownmountkennedy and Calary or Powerscourt with Kilbride and attend St Patrick’s NS Greystones or Delgany any NS provided the applicants meet all other admission criteria within this 3Temple Carrig Secondary School Admissions Policy category at the date of application
(where there is an excess of applicants within this category, places available shall be offered on the basis of random selection), then
to (iii) applicants with an active parish affiliation (as defined below in
Appendix 1) with one of the Church of Ireland parishes of Greystones,
Delgany, Bray, Newcastle with Newtownmountkennedy and Calary or
Powerscourt with Kilbride and attend St Andrew’s NS Bray or Powerscourt NS Enniskerry or St Francis NS
Newcastle provided the applicants meet all other admission criteria within this category at the date of application (where there
is an excess of applicants within this category, places available shall be offered on the basis of random selection), then (iv)places shall be offered to all other applicants who meet the admission criteria in this category subject to random selection in the event of oversubscription for remaining places available

Active Parish Affiliation
Priority for active parish affiliation (as defined below in Appendix 1) shall only apply where an applicant has completed an Active Parish Affiliation form and returned it to the School Office by 5pm on Friday 27th October 2017
and that form is subsequently verified by the relevant Rector.

All that I have changed above to red text is now illegal. Even the Cat 0 (staff children) which was not in the original admission policy when the school opened now looks a bit dubious.

Those kids from local schools who were turned away for Sept 2018 have probably made alternative arrangements at this stage, but the 2019 list should be scrapped and started again. The basis for the selection in both these years is now illegal and obsolete.
It would be great to see parents of kids who attended any of the 8 listed schools, and whose kids were refused a place, getting together now and appointing a lawyer to look into it.

And not only is all the religious discrimination now illegal, but from now on schools must have a policy to

(n) provide details of the school’s arrangements in respect of any student, where the parent of that student, or in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student, has requested that the student attend the school without attending religious instruction at the school (which arrangements shall not result in a reduction in the school day in respect of the student concerned)

In other words provide alternative classes or a supervised study period.
Its the Law from 18th July 2018.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

Also I think its worth pointing out that the 2019 admissions policy is now illegal.

I pulled the following quote from TC school website today re the 2019 policy... All that I have changed above to red text is now illegal. Even the Cat 0 (staff children) which was not in the original admission policy when the school opened now looks a bit dubious.

Those kids from local schools who were turned away for Sept 2018 have probably made alternative arrangements at this stage, but the 2019 list should be scrapped and started again. The basis for the selection in both these years is now illegal and obsolete.
It would be great to see parents of kids who attended any of the 8 listed schools, and whose kids were refused a place, getting together now and appointing a lawyer to look into it.

And not only is all the religious discrimination now illegal, but from now on schools must have a policy to In other words provide alternative classes or a supervised study period.
Its the Law from 18th July 2018.

Is it? Has there been a ministerial order?

recedite

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Is it? Has there been a ministerial order?

The law is the law. It doesn't have to be interpreted by any minister.

The Bishop Basher

Afaik the act was signed into law last week and will be in in effect from 2018/2019..

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2018-press-releases/PR18-05-09.html

And I agree with you recedite that much of the existing policy will be very much open to challenge..

But while i'm no fan of the existing regime and i'm completely opposed to the admissions policy as stated for TC, it's important to note that 60% of the kids currently attending TC identify as Roman Catholic and only 20% are CoI. That leaves another 20% for all other faiths and none.. The school is diverse..

The new laws will ensure it remains so.

recedite

Rennaws wrote: »

Afaik the act was signed into law last week and will be in in effect from 2018/2019..

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2018-press-releases/PR18-05-09.html

And I agree with you recedite that much of the existing policy will be very much open to challenge..

But while i'm no fan of the existing regime and i'm completely opposed to the admissions policy as stated for TC, it's important to note that 60% of the kids currently attending TC identify as Roman Catholic and only 20% are CoI. That leaves another 20% for all other faiths and none.. The school is diverse..

The new laws will ensure it remains so.

Yes, well of course its diverse. If you give control of a large state school to a minority religion, then of course its going to be "diverse". A minority is, by definition, a minority, and cannot fill up the whole school.

The point is, 100% of parents holding a piece of paper issued by the local CoI rector get a place for their own kids. The remaining places are allocated to "others". And this in a facility that is 100% owned and funded by the state, which was built specifically to cater for the kids graduating from the local primary schools on an equal and non-sectarian basis.

byhookorbycrook

I thought the religious admission ban was only for Catholic ethos schools and that "minority religions" can still use it as religious criteria?

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

The law is the law. It doesn't have to be interpreted by any minister.

Yes it does. Read page 48 Section 13.4 and Section 13.5

The law does not come into effect until there is a ministerial order which says it can commence.

recedite

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I thought the religious admission ban was only for Catholic ethos schools and that "minority religions" can still use it as religious criteria?

I thought that too, but if you read the text of the legislation, the exemption (from the anti-religious discrimination rule) enjoyed by "minority religions" only applies to primary schools. Therefore it cannot apply to any secondary schools.

I don't know whether that was deliberate, or a gigantic fcuk up, or I have missed something. Time will tell.

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

The point is, 100% of parents holding a piece of paper issued by the local CoI rector get a place for their own kids.

That’s not true for TC though. We didn’t get a place and I know of others who didn’t.

That said, we’re delighted as it worked out for the best but being CoI does not guarantee you a spot in TC school.

recedite wrote: »

The remaining places are allocated to "others". And this in a facility that is 100% owned and funded by the state, which was built specifically to cater for the kids graduating from the local primary schools on an equal and non-sectarian basis.

Those remaining places currently account for 80% of the intake so the school appears to be serving its purpose and educating a wide mix of children across a diverse set of religious and non religious backgrounds.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t agree with the way the admissions to TC were amended after the fact to favour CoI kids. I think it was sneaky and wrong and I’m delighted to see the minister finally do something about it.

But it’s equally important to highlight that the school does currently serve the entire community and with the news laws in place we can be assured it will continue to do so.

The rector has clearly been using admission to TC school as a means to excercise power over his flock and ensure attendance and this is now illegal. It shouldn’t have been necessary but hey ho..

Outside of this and a change to the admissions policy I thinks it’s unlikely you’ll see any change to the religious makeup of the school..

There might be many tough conversations on the st Patrick’s church and school boards over the coming weeks but I would see it as business as usual for TC.

recedite

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes it does. Read page 48 Section 13.4 and Section 13.5

Ah yes, the sneaky small print.

4)Subject to subsection (5), this Act shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister for Education and Skills may appoint by order or orders either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions.
(5) Section11 shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister for Education and Skills may, after consultation with the Minister for Justice and Equality, appoint by order or orders either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions.

Well, either this will be signed off routinely after the summer break, or there has been a deliberate plan to deceive the electorate with a dummy law. Either way it puts this legislation into a kind of limbo for the moment. But once its activated the minister does not interpret it, the courts do.

recedite

Rennaws wrote: »

That’s not true for TC though. We didn’t get a place and I know of others who didn’t.

Did you hold the piece of paper?

byhookorbycrook

recedite wrote: »

Ah yes, the sneaky small print.Well, either this will be signed off routinely after the summer break, or there has been a deliberate plan to deceive the electorate with a dummy law. Either way it puts this legislation into a kind of limbo for the moment. But once its activated the minister does not interpret it, the courts do.

Mr. Bruton is the king of the soundbite. But the "devil really is in the detail." What gets announced to the media sounds wonderful, until you look at what the circular actually says.

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

Did you hold the piece of paper?

I was never asked for one. I did sign a form to say my daughter was affiliated which she was. To be fair I never darkened the door of the place but she was there every week helping out with teas and coffees and all that jazz.

But honestly, being a prod does not guarantee you a spot. They all have to line up every Sunday and make sure they’re seen by the Rev in the hope that they’ll get noticed enough to get a one.

But all that aside..

If you need the law to ensure you have a fair and inclusive admissions policy then you probably have bigger Issues to address in your organization..

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

Ah yes, the sneaky small print.Well, either this will be signed off routinely after the summer break, or there has been a deliberate plan to deceive the electorate with a dummy law. Either way it puts this legislation into a kind of limbo for the moment. But once its activated the minister does not interpret it, the courts do.

???
This is common legislative practice. Many Acts are passed into law but not yet commenced. That was why I questioned you.

recedite

Rennaws wrote: »

I did sign a form to say my daughter was affiliated which she was.

Not much good, unless you signed it while using the rector's name

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

Not much good, unless you signed it while using the rector's name

I could be wrong but it was one of the first years and I don’t think the revs signature was required at that time..

I remember affiliation being on the form alright.

Anyway, he would have known she was there every week as she was always helping out.

The application papers were hand delivered by myself on 2 occasions and duly ignored both times as were follow up requests for info.

Maybe they were down a couple of good secretaries then too..

As always, things turn out they way they’re meant to and I wouldn’t change it now..

I do think TC is a phenomenal school and we’re incredibly lucky to have the choices we have here in Greystones with more on the way.

This admission policy needed to be sorted once and for all and the school should be opened up for all as a matter of policy. The new laws will drive this forward. The rector says no changes on the cards for St.Patrick’s anyway.

Interesting times ahead.