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Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

dowlingm

So there's been quite a bit of discussion of greenways on threads like Western Rail Corridor (Train & Rail Systems) and I was thinking it might be useful to have a thread which pulls together both technical discussion (for example how greenways can co-exist with adjacent roadways or railways) and news (expansions of existing greenways / announcements of new ones)

According to the Connaught Tribune there are moves on getting on Galway-Clifden along the old rail line alignment. Is there anything else starting to reach firm proposals as opposed to discussion?

MOD EDIT: Fantastic Greenway map of Ireland by riddlinrussell here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1HAHB3jpXV7qgrTHgopH4Zl7-ItDHGEPv&ll=53.4320326010536%2C-8.939188105408448&z=7

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serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

As others have mentioned, in most cases this is not an issue. However, where it is, what we are starting to see are ground swells of locals pushing for safer cycling infrastructure even in small country towns and villages to allow safe and easy access

I remember visiting Dublin a couple of years after the shared bikes started. What I was surprised about was how much this kick-started an interest in cycling in general, with plenty more people on (their own) bikes then had been the case when I previously worked there.

[Deleted User]

whisky_galore wrote: »

The irony about many greenways is that people will need to bring bikes in their cars to get to them. Very green alright!

As others have mentioned, in most cases this is not an issue. However, where it is, what we are starting to see are ground swells of locals pushing for safer cycling infrastructure even in small country towns and villages to allow safe and easy access

[Deleted User]

The train is a great option to have, though Irish Rail facilities aren't great - is it a limit of three bikes per train? It wouldn't work for many family groups.

Zubeneschamali

Muckyboots wrote: »

The beauty of the Athenry to Claremorris option - Trains arriving and departing at each end of the route. Bikes on trains.

Likewise you can go by train from Dublin to Mullingar, cycle 40K to Athlone and catch a train back to Dublin.

marno21

Muckyboots wrote: »

The beauty of the Athenry to Claremorris option - Trains arriving and departing at each end of the route. Bikes on trains.

Or indeed Claremorris-Collooney and some of the others (Tralee-Fenit, Waterford-New Ross/Rosslare). And indeed some of the future greenway such as Killonan-Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction-Waterford

Muckyboots

whisky_galore wrote: »

The irony about many greenways is that people will need to bring bikes in their cars to get to them. Very green alright!

The beauty of the Athenry to Claremorris option - Trains arriving and departing at each end of the route. Bikes on trains.

[Deleted User]

whisky_galore wrote: »

The irony about many greenways is that people will need to bring bikes in their cars to get to them. Very green alright!

Not really - many, many people rent bikes, and good rental and shuttle businesses have built up to support these.

whisky_galore

The irony about many greenways is that people will need to bring bikes in their cars to get to them. Very green alright!

[Deleted User]

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

That's very much a factor especially because of the hopeless bike carriage on offer by irish Rail. It means you can do a longer length of a Greenway rather than doubling back. Mayo offers a return service too afaik but only if you're hiring a bike. Does Waterford offer it even with your own?

We tried to no avail to find bike hire on the Royal Canal Greenway spur from Longford a while ago so had to settle for a drop off and pick up with our own bikes and driver missing the cycle. So many stations on that route, Mullingar, Longford (spur) Maynooth but such limited access by train!

Shuttle bus was from the bike hire company. There was no obvious sign of any way of transporting bikes, so I doubt if it would be available for your own bike.

Corca Baiscinn

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The availability of the shuttle bus was a key factor for us in choosing the Waterford one.

That's very much a factor especially because of the hopeless bike carriage on offer by irish Rail. It means you can do a longer length of a Greenway rather than doubling back. Mayo offers a return service too afaik but only if you're hiring a bike. Does Waterford offer it even with your own?

We tried to no avail to find bike hire on the Royal Canal Greenway spur from Longford a while ago so had to settle for a drop off and pick up with our own bikes and driver missing the cycle. So many stations on that route, Mullingar, Longford (spur) Maynooth but such limited access by train!

JohnC.

I live about half way between Waterford and Carrick. Can't move for hearing about the Waterford one. Didn't even know there was one at Carrick.

[Deleted User]

BarryD2 wrote: »

It is but from what I saw, the Waterford one looked even busier. Closer to large centres of population too, so that makes a difference. I reckon some of these greenways will be attractive and well used whilst others will see occasional use.

It's not just that Waterford is closer - the access is much better, with much less on-road sections, and fewer road crossings than Mayo.

BarryD2

Muahahaha wrote: »

Achill Westport greenway is definitely very successful and the blueprint for other county councils to follow.

It is but from what I saw, the Waterford one looked even busier. Closer to large centres of population too, so that makes a difference. I reckon some of these greenways will be attractive and well used whilst others will see occasional use.

whisky_galore

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah the Kerry farmer that RTE interviewed said he has 180 acres and that the greenway would split his land in two. Which is a bit mad considering farmers themselves split their land into several parcels using fences to keep animals grazing in specific places. Theres also thousands of farmers who had their land properly split in two for the motorways to be built and they just use the overpass bridges and get on with it.

Anyway the IFA are claiming that Kerry CC did not consult landowners. Which is a blatant lie because the public consultation was held in August 2017 and the documents and maps for the greenway are on the KCC website here http://docstore.kerrycoco.ie/KCCWebsite/roads/schemes/skerry/map1.pdf

Perhaps they would have preferred someone from the council with the balls to call out to them and explain the situation, rather than be summoned to a town hall or library.

Muahahaha

nuac wrote: »

The first and most successful Greenway is Westport/Achill. Work on that started 2010.

The County Council appointed a dynamic duo Anna Connor Walking Officer and Padgraig Philbin Senior Executive Engineer. They met and worked with about 170 landowners and local development organisations along the route. They explained the economic and social advantages to the area of a Greenway. They negotiated agreements for permissive access. No mention of a CPO anywhere. Community buy-in instead.

Achill Westport greenway is definitely very successful and the blueprint for other county councils to follow. But I dont think it was as easy to achieve as you are saying- long before construction began in 2010 there was a strong minority of landowners who held it up for years, the bike hire guy was telling me it could have been built 8-10 years sooner if it wasnt for people digging their heels in for a long haul.

Muahahaha

RikkFlair wrote: »

Saw that, had the usual "this will cut my land in 2" complaint that seems to get trotted out all the time. I'm sure there will be well designed farm crossings included, it's a greenway not the Berlin wall!

Yeah the Kerry farmer that RTE interviewed said he has 180 acres and that the greenway would split his land in two. Which is a bit mad considering farmers themselves split their land into several parcels using fences to keep animals grazing in specific places. Theres also thousands of farmers who had their land properly split in two for the motorways to be built and they just use the overpass bridges and get on with it.

Anyway the IFA are claiming that Kerry CC did not consult landowners. Which is a blatant lie because the public consultation was held in August 2017 and the documents and maps for the greenway are on the KCC website here http://docstore.kerrycoco.ie/KCCWebsite/roads/schemes/skerry/map1.pdf

[Deleted User]

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Really comes down to how well they get promoted, the Waterford one has a great team pushing it. Probably not as much for the Carrick-on-Suir one. I wouldn't even have been aware of it being completed yet if someone in work, and yourself, hadn't said to me.

There will certainly be areas that are a greater tourist draw than others, but the Netherlands manages a fair amount of cycle tourism purely based on the quality of the routes and its flat as a pancake, so theres some chance in the midlands, especially if they can link in plenty of points of interest.

The availability of the shuttle bus was a key factor for us in choosing the Waterford one.

riddlinrussell

BarryD2 wrote: »

Was on the Waterford greenway recently between Dungarvan and Kilmac. It was a nice day at end of July and was in continuous use. Young, old, families, teenagers, tourists.

Also see a new greenway all the way along the Suir towpath from Clonmel to Carrick, not as heavily used. Don't think it's promoted much. There will come a time when there are a good number of these and whilst locally used, I don't think we'll see the same numbers flocking to them?

Really comes down to how well they get promoted, the Waterford one has a great team pushing it. Probably not as much for the Carrick-on-Suir one. I wouldn't even have been aware of it being completed yet if someone in work, and yourself, hadn't said to me.

There will certainly be areas that are a greater tourist draw than others, but the Netherlands manages a fair amount of cycle tourism purely based on the quality of the routes and its flat as a pancake, so theres some chance in the midlands, especially if they can link in plenty of points of interest.

BarryD2

Was on the Waterford greenway recently between Dungarvan and Kilmac. It was a nice day at end of July and was in continuous use. Young, old, families, teenagers, tourists.

Also see a new greenway all the way along the Suir towpath from Clonmel to Carrick, not as heavily used. Don't think it's promoted much. There will come a time when there are a good number of these and whilst locally used, I don't think we'll see the same numbers flocking to them?

riddlinrussell

whisky_galore wrote: »

People resent being told what to do by their 'betters', and will resist.
Going in with all guns blazing will set back projects for years, or cause them to be abandoned altogether.

FWIW: the difference between the Fenit branch and South Kerry is that the South Kerry was officially abandoned and land sold back to landowners by CIE, the Fenit landowners are attempting to squat on land that isn't theirs as it was never formally abandoned.

I may be corrected on this but read somewhere CIE transferred their ownership of the Fenit branch to Kerry CC recently?

As for 'safeguarding', I very much doubt that rail will return to any converted routes, whether it makes economic sense or not as the govt/Irish Rail are anything but pro-rail and Irish people in general are too fond of their cars.

There was (AFAIK) one route that became a greenway in Ireland with a specific view to being made a public transit corridor in future. The Comber Greenway in Belfast. When they tried to use it as a BRT/Tram route there was public outcry at taking away the greenway and translink/dept of Infra backed down, if it ever happens again I'd anticipate the Dept will get a written agreement rather than gentlemans agreement so they dont experience the same problems.

whisky_galore

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

What greenway is this?
What is the story with the Great Southern Trail on the section into Listowel?

Abbeyfeale - Listowel has been cleared of growth, with consent of landowners.

whisky_galore

nuac wrote: »

I don't think "Gung-CPOs" are the best way to develope viable greenways. Land owners resent the compulsion. Understandable when you recall Land War history.

People resent being told what to do by their 'betters', and will resist.
Going in with all guns blazing will set back projects for years, or cause them to be abandoned altogether.

FWIW: the difference between the Fenit branch and South Kerry is that the South Kerry was officially abandoned and land sold back to landowners by CIE, the Fenit landowners are attempting to squat on land that isn't theirs as it was never formally abandoned.

I may be corrected on this but read somewhere CIE transferred their ownership of the Fenit branch to Kerry CC recently?

As for 'safeguarding', I very much doubt that rail will return to any converted routes, whether it makes economic sense or not as the govt/Irish Rail are anything but pro-rail and Irish people in general are too fond of their cars.

riddlinrussell

Carawaystick wrote: »

The tender doc in Carlingford says

The objective of the scheme is the construction of approximately 10 km of new Cross Border Greenway, in accordance with prevailing cycling standards (Rural Cycleway design (Offline) DN-GEO-03047 April 2017).
The proposed route is along the Old Dundalk, Newry & Greenore rail line, where this route is practical. The rail line closed in 1951 and is currently densely overgrown with vegetation.

I missed the explicit mention of cross border there! That makes Victoria Lock-Omeath and Carlingford-Greenore combo more likely! That would likely be the catalyst for it becoming much more popular as the main section along the south shore of the lough would be completed.

nuac

marno21 wrote: »

The whole purpose of these greenways is to preserve quality railway alignments for future use when they become viable again.

We'll thank the greenway co-operatives when we see trains running Dungarvan-Waterford, Westport-Achill, Tralee-Fenit, Tralee-Limerick etc.

Apart from the lack of an economic case to restore train services from Westport to Achill, we have the issue of the prophesy of Brian Rua O'Cearrabhán. In effect he said over 250 years ago that there would be a cart on iron wheels coming to Achill, and that it would carry corpses on its first and last journey.

The first train from Westport to Achill carried the bodies of Achill people who were drowned at Westport while waiting to board the Glasgow steamer.

The last train, a special after the line had been closed to normal traffic, carried the bodies of Achill youths killed in a fire at Kirkintullough. They had gone there for annual work picking potatoes

So if a train service Westport/Achill were resumed, the operators would need to check their life insurance:).

nuac

veryangryman wrote: »

Honestly i hope they go with the original route. CPO's for national infrastructure need to be more gung-ho. Give the farmer(s) some reasonable compensation and build it.

I don't think "Gungho-CPOs" are the best way to develope viable greenways. Land owners resent the compulsion. Understandable when you recall Land War history.

The local authority has to do an immense amount of work in preparing a CPO application, costing time and money,

The first and most successful Greenway is Westport/Achill. Work on that started 2010.

The County Council appointed a dynamic duo Anna Connor Walking Officer and Padgraig Philbin Senior Executive Engineer. They met and worked with about 170 landowners and local development organisations along the route. They explained the economic and social advantages to the area of a Greenway. They negotiated agreements for permissive access. No mention of a CPO anywhere. Community buy-in instead.

Has been extended to Castlebar and onto Turlough. Extensions to Murrisk and Louisburgh being worked on.

There is even talk of a spur south of Westport to Leenane!

CiarraiAbu2

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

What greenway is this?
What is the story with the Great Southern Trail on the section into Listowel?

Same problem farmers complaining, same with Tralee to Fenit. The biggest problem I have with it is that they never owned the land in the first place. The other problem I have with it is that most of it was never incorporated into their own lands it's just two banks overgrown with brambles, yet they want to be paid for it.

RikkFlair

Muahahaha wrote: »

There was a short report by Plastic Sheeting on the RTE 6.1 about the Kerry Greenway. Crux of it was the IFA protesting outside Kerry County Council offices saying the 180 farmers support the greenway but are against CPOs. They were complaining that they have not been consulted which I find hard to believe as KCC say they did engage in talks but agreement could not be reached so they are now proceeding to CPO. Anyway the current state of play is a planning application is going into ABP in the coming weeks.

Saw that, had the usual "this will cut my land in 2" complaint that seems to get trotted out all the time. I'm sure there will be well designed farm crossings included, it's a greenway not the Berlin wall!

Carawaystick

The tender doc in Carlingford says

The objective of the scheme is the construction of approximately 10 km of new Cross Border Greenway, in accordance with prevailing cycling standards (Rural Cycleway design (Offline) DN-GEO-03047 April 2017).
The proposed route is along the Old Dundalk, Newry & Greenore rail line, where this route is practical. The rail line closed in 1951 and is currently densely overgrown with vegetation.

Tigerandahalf

Muahahaha wrote: »

During the report they had a camera drone filming part of the proposed 32km greenway route. Its an old railway line which has a superb viaduct on its route. The scenery along the route was absolutely stunning, if/when this goes ahead it will be a jewel in Kerry tourism.

What greenway is this?
What is the story with the Great Southern Trail on the section into Listowel?

death1234567

Farmer's complaining? Hard to believe that.