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How we think and talk about reducing car use in cities

monument

A few things in recent threads and discussions off boards has got me thinking...

Most of the time when we talk about “restrictions on cars” we’re actually talking about “improvements for others” or reallocating priority and space to others.

For anybody who supports a more liveable and sustainable city, it’s far more constructive to look at it from the perspective of providing a reallocation of priority and space.

And I’m not just saying that from a perception perspective — as CF from the AA says, you can put up road blocks and the city won’t be any better. I actually think he’s half right. For the road blocks to be a positive, you need to be planning to improve walking, cycling, and public transport, not just disproving car access.

But in other cities of a similar size to Dublin, the link between provision of public transport, “restrictions on cars”, and use of cars is at best weak or mixed or not as strange forward as people think.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen put in significant relocation of space before having metro lines in place and Amsterdam has just used the opening of its new North-South metro line as an excuse to block east-west car movements — the link there is tenuous.

In Dublin the volume of cars looks large but the numbers of people they are carrying is low compared to the numbers carred in bus lanes, tram lanes and narrow cycle lanes. Often you’re only taking about a few hundred people in cars per hour on many routes — easily transferred to other modes.

Even in larger cities like Paris or London — with far greater public transport — they still get opposition to surface improvements on the bases that motorists will lose out, be they for buses or trams or decent cycle paths.

Another thing is that Dublin already has around 10% cycling modal share and even if some of the planned major routes are built, that modal share will grow. Dutch cities have up to 50%+ but the NTA in Dublin has low enough targets for cycling.

Also we have to look at modal shift as not as strange forward as most people think of it as.

For example, one car driver might in reaction to a change in road layouts change to a different route and it might be any other driver on that route who switches to walking, cycling or public transport.

If someone from far out switches to the bus, some guy who used to commute on the same route but living closer to the city centre might then switch from the bus to walking or cycling.

Or some people already combine driving with cycling once they get near the city centre or get a lift to the edge of the city centre and then cycle etc.

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magicbastarder

it's probably also important to understand why people are driving into the city. are they driving in because they're already going to be coming a sizable distance where public transport is not feasible, but there aren't adequate park and ride facilities on the outskirts to complete the journey?
or because they've a free parking space and 'may as well use it'?

i have probably a typical amount of friends and family working in the city centre. none of them drive in, so i don't really know anyone who does to understand why other options are not open to them.
the vast majority of the people i know would not have a parking space available, so driving would not be an option even if they wanted to.

Dravokivich

Get rid of on street parking in the city. You've loads of extra space right there. Multi story car parks are a potential solution that's not used, because you've still got cars coming into the city.

A lot of major roads lead through the city. I'd suggest most of the traffic is through traffic. At least 95% of the time I'm driving there, Dublin City is not my destination. Someone will need to re-evaluate what was the purpose of the M50 and see what can be done to stop directing us "low capacity vehicles" into the city.

Bray Head

Fares in Dublin are very high compared to most European cities (not London).

Two adults and two children in and out of city centre on Dublin Bus is €12.40.

That's comparable to fuel and parking for a few hours.

Zebra3

I don’t drive but I know a lot of people who will drive through the city at weekends to avoid paying the M50 toll.

So the road that was built to take traffic out of the city isn’t actually doing its’ job.

Stephen15

Bray Head wrote: »

Fares in Dublin are very high compared to most European cities (not London).

Two adults and two children in and out of city centre on Dublin Bus is €12.40.

That's comparable to fuel and parking for a few hours.

True but the costs of owning a car are really a lot higher insurance, tax, maintence and NCT plus a whole lot more, it would be naive to think that fuel and parking charges are the only associated costs with owning a car.

Although I do think we should schemes like kids go free at weekends.

CatInABox

Stephen15 wrote: »

True but the costs of owning a car are really a lot higher insurance, tax, maintence and NCT plus a whole lot more, it would be naive to think that fuel and parking charges are the only associated costs with owning a car.

Although I do think we should schemes like kids go free at weekends.

The actual cost of a car journey may be higher once you factor everything in, but that's not how it feels when you leave your front door.

Once you're paying for insurance, etc, you simply don't include them in the cost of a journey when your setting out.

Spanish Eyes

I've often wondered why there are so many cars all joining up in the CC. Maybe they are not commuting, but going to hospitals, etc. and so on. The fact that there are free parking spaces for Civil Servants and City Council workers is a joke. But it will never be withdrawn will it?

Anyway, like the buses most traffic ends up in "An Lar" and moves out somewhere else. A small minority might be shopping or something, but honestly anything you cannot carry on PT can be delivered. I doubt anyone goes to the City except for smaller items of shopping and that be done on PT.

I really wish there was a survey of car drivers in rush hour (and all day too!) as to where they are going, what is their purpose, and why can they not use PT.

I exclude those whose work involves carrying heavy equipment for work around the CC. Can't think of anything else. I see a lot of barristers and Court workers taking the bus from the CCCJ at Heuston back into town with their wheelie brief holders. Just as an example.

The quays for example are absolutely jammers with cars. It is beyond belief now.

But I don't think the will is there to do much more re cars TBH. I live in hope though as it is unsustainable right now.

dr.fuzzenstein

Stephen15 wrote: »

True but the costs of owning a car are really a lot higher insurance, tax, maintence and NCT plus a whole lot more, it would be naive to think that fuel and parking charges are the only associated costs with owning a car.

Although I do think we should schemes like kids go free at weekends.

But the others costs are always associated with car ownership.
Your argument does make sense when not owning a car.

Stephen15

CatInABox wrote: »

The actual cost of a car journey may be higher once you factor everything in, but that's not how it feels when you leave your front door.

Once you're paying for insurance, etc, you simply don't include them in the cost of a journey when your setting out.

That's true alright but if there was better public transport in Dublin people would get rid of their cars altogether and use car sharing services such as GoCar whenever they need a car instead of owning a car that lies idle for most of the year. Obviously that wouldn't suit everyone but it could be a viable alternative post Bus Connects particularly if there are more orbital routes.

Isambard

Dravokivich wrote: »

Get rid of on street parking in the city. You've loads of extra space right there. Multi story car parks are a potential solution that's not used, because you've still got cars coming into the city.

A lot of major roads lead through the city. I'd suggest most of the traffic is through traffic. At least 95% of the time I'm driving there, Dublin City is not my destination. Someone will need to re-evaluate what was the purpose of the M50 and see what can be done to stop directing us "low capacity vehicles" into the city.

from a Cork point of view, I often thought it would be good to stop parking in the South Mall and divert traffic from Patrick St down that way. However there is a huge amount of objection to making Patrick St pedestrian only, it seems so sensible to me to have no through traffic in the City's Main St.

Just a small example of the problems limiting car access will bring. Most people will want everyone else limited but will want to drive where they want.

andrewfaulk

Taking cars out of parts of the city centre would make a huge difference, particularly for cyclists and pedestrians.. South William/Grafton/Dawson street area could really do with being pedestrianised

dr.fuzzenstein

If I go to Bargaintown, can I bring a bed, a wardrobe and three piece suite on the bus with me?

PhoenixParker

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If I go to Bargaintown, can I bring a bed, a wardrobe and three piece suite on the bus with me?

At least they'd fit in a bus though the driver & other passengers would object.
They certainly wouldn't fit in my car.
Luckily furniture places have delivery services.

Cookie_Monster

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If I go to Bargaintown, can I bring a bed, a wardrobe and three piece suite on the bus with me?

do you do that every weekend?

Once off things like that are easy to deal with, get it delivered or arrange to drive for that time. But in general you won't need the capacity of a small van every weekend for a coffee and some groceries...

I agree with Dravokivich above, getting rid of on street parking would make a big difference, either more space for buses / cyclists or more space to make footpaths bigger or nicer with tress / cafe seating etc.
A lot of Dublin CC is not a pleasent place to walk around due to 1) excess traffic and roads and slow pedestrian traffic lights and 2) the various rubbish, junkies and so forth. The above would address both of these to a large degree making it a whole lot nicer a place to walk around in.

magicbastarder

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If I go to Bargaintown, can I bring a bed, a wardrobe and three piece suite on the bus with me?

if you go to bargaintown in the city centre, will they stock those items in there? or will they store them in one of their suburban warehouses, where floor space is much cheaper?

orangerhyme

Autonomous electric vehicles will be a reality in 5 years. Car ownership will fall off a cliff sometime in the 2020s.
It costs approximately 10,000 a year to own a car.
Cities will be transformed with far less space used for cars in transit and parking.

I think people underestimate how quickly this will happen.
As we speak almost every big tech company and car company is developing this technology.

If the metro and bus plans happen and the proposed cycle routes, Dublin will be completely different.
Very quiet streets and roads.

magicbastarder

orangerhyme wrote: »

Autonomous electric vehicles will be a reality in 5 years. Car ownership will fall off a cliff sometime in the 2020s.
It costs approximately 10,000 a year to own a car.
Cities will be transformed with far less space used for cars in transit and parking.

colour me sceptical about claims being made for electric cars; many of the same benefits being touted for them (in terms of car sharing) is already available via schemes like go car, but if go car have even reached 1% of journeys made in dublin, i'll eat my catalytic converter (at least my corpse will be valuable)

it doesn't cost €10,000 a year to run a car. that's worst case scenario figures for someone owning a car, working in the city centre, and having to park it on the street.

Geuze

CatInABox wrote: »

The actual cost of a car journey may be higher once you factor everything in, but that's not how it feels when you leave your front door.

Once you're paying for insurance, etc, you simply don't include them in the cost of a journey when your setting out.

Correct.

Drivers ignore the high fixed costs of driving when making a decision to drive or not. FC = cost of car, insurance, motor tax, etc.

They focus on the marginal costs, e.g. toll, parking, fuel.

We need to increase the MC and reduce the FC.

Abolish VRT.

Increase fuel duty.

Wildly Boaring

One i don't understand is the lack of adequate park and ride facilities.

A lot of people driving in are coming from well outside. Cavan, Laois, Kilkenny etc.

Always believed if they had proper free parking outdide m50 and standard train fare in they'd avail happily.

Lot of these people could be 20mins on a train instead of min 1 hour stuck in car and then a commute

questionmark?

orangerhyme wrote: »

Autonomous electric vehicles will be a reality in 5 years. Car ownership will fall off a cliff sometime in the 2020s.
It costs approximately 10,000 a year to own a car.
Cities will be transformed with far less space used for cars in transit and parking.

I think people underestimate how quickly this will happen.
As we speak almost every big tech company and car company is developing this technology.

If the metro and bus plans happen and the proposed cycle routes, Dublin will be completely different.
Very quiet streets and roads.

I'm very much pro public transport but it does not cost €10,000 a year to run a car. Where in the name of God did they get that figure from!!!

orangerhyme

questionmark? wrote: »

I'm very much pro public transport but it does not cost €10,000 a year to run a car. Where in the name of God did they get that figure from!!!

That's including depreciation, fuel, service, insurance, repairs, tax, parking, washing etc.
There's numerous studies on this.

https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/cost-of-motoring.aspx#

orangerhyme

magicbastarder wrote: »

colour me sceptical about claims being made for electric cars; many of the same benefits being touted for them (in terms of car sharing) is already available via schemes like go car, but if go car have even reached 1% of journeys made in dublin, i'll eat my catalytic converter (at least my corpse will be valuable)

it doesn't cost €10,000 a year to run a car. that's worst case scenario figures for someone owning a car, working in the city centre, and having to park it on the street.

https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/cost-of-motoring.aspx#

orangerhyme

orangerhyme wrote: »

https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/cost-of-motoring.aspx#

That doesn't include time wasted dealing with car issues such as nct, insurance, driving, parking, cleaning etc.
On top of that is the opportunity cost of both the money and time.

There's a reason every major car company is working on autonomous vehicles, they know the Victor will take all the spoils.
Right now Google and Tesla are in the best position.
I can guarantee that in 5 years time that autonomous car sharing services will be available in many cities across the world. It's inevitable.
These will be cheaper to use than owning a car and far less hassle, so why bother owning a car!?
Your car spends only 4% of its time driving, the rest of the time it's parked. Why bother owning one!?

Cookie_Monster

orangerhyme wrote: »

Right now Google and Tesla are in the best position.

except they're not, Audi is. They are the only ones who will have a stage 3 vehicle on the road this year.

orangerhyme

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

except they're not, Audi is. They are the only ones who will have a stage 3 vehicle on the road this year.

Google/Wayma are starting an autonomous ride hauling service in Phoenix Az this year.

In 5 years Tesla will have millions of cars on the road all collecting data. Tesla don't use lidar though which may be a mistake.

Bray Head

My fixed costs of driving a car are very high (purchase, VAT, VRT, NCT, insurance, etc)

The marginal cost of driving to and from Dublin city centre once a month (a round trip of 9km) are extremely low. The wear and tear of slow driving on city roads is insignificant compared to the fixed costs of ownership.

I will be the very first to give up on car ownership and start using autonomous vehicles on subscription when it's viable.

There's a few reasons why Ireland won't be an early adopter:

It's a small market and Uber/Waymo/Tesla will go to bigger markets first
Ireland has no legal framework in place to allow it. It will need to be proven to be safe and reliable in several US states and EU countries before legislators will touch it
Autonomous vehicles will be easiest to implement in US cities with wide, straight streets set out in grids. The technical challenges of getting around boreens in Connemara are an order of magnitude harder. When autonomous vehicles do arrive in Ireland I suspect they will be available only on national roads and a few urban areas, limiting their appeal.

magicbastarder

just catching the end of it on miriam o'callaghan on radio 1 - she's talking to a chap called brendan, who appears to be a representative of the council, and a chap called frank (frank mcdonald?) about car use and managing traffic in galway. might be worth catching on the RTE player.

magicbastarder

orangerhyme wrote: »

That's including depreciation, fuel, service, insurance, repairs, tax, parking, washing etc.
There's numerous studies on this.

https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/cost-of-motoring.aspx#

'garage/parking/miscellaneous expenses' at €4000? on average?
over a tenner a day? or based on parking during working hours, nearly twenty quid a day.
and owning or building a garage is not a cost of motoring. it's a cost of owning or building a garage.
the AA is a lobby group, not a research institute. it's in their interest to exaggerate the costs to their members.

Wildly Boaring

magicbastarder wrote: »

'garage/parking/miscellaneous expenses' at €4000? on average?
over a tenner a day? or based on parking during working hours, nearly twenty quid a day.
and owning or building a garage is not a cost of motoring. it's a cost of owning or building a garage.
the AA is a lobby group, not a research institute. it's in their interest to exaggerate the costs to their members.

My car costs me €7800 per annum plus incidentals (wear and tear).
Incidentals currently at €925 for suspension work and will need a clutch either this year or next - another €1100

That's €8700 to €10000 per annum for 30,000km.

My car is over 5 years old so not depreciating too heavily (hopefully)
I have no toll costs - easily another €1000 to most near Dublin
Cars are not cheap to run

[Deleted User]

It’s gas the way people talk about the costs of car ownership vs public transport, as if even a notable minority of car owners are going to abandon their cars in favour of PT. Not happening. If I can afford a car, there’s no way I’m using public transport. Not in Dublin. LUAS green line isn’t even as good a service/experience as it was before extension. I’ll spend 3-4 times as much on a journey using my car before I’d inconvenience myself by opting for a bus or an overcrowded LUAS. Comfortable seat, air-con as I want it, radio, ability to chop and change plans and basically suit myself. Most of us with cars want the same, unless PT is much, much more convenient. Which it isn’t.

I’m already ‘in’ for thousands a year to have the freedom to go anywhere I want, any time i want. More for parking, petrol and whatever isn’t going to make me change my behaviour.