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Entitlement culture and the squeezed middle in Ireland

Creative83

It would seem that that the less well off have it very handy in terms of "entitlements" The Wealthy have it all, well, just because they are wealthy. Where do the middle class sit?

Is there a fundamental unfairness in Irish society today regarding the middle class?

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Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

Apparently I am now "the 1%" and should pay for everything.

If you mean 'the 1%' of the wealthiest, you're probably not, you d more than likely would have to be born into wealth for that to occur, and would probably be paying a relatively smaller amount of tax than others

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

If you mean 'the 1%' of the wealthiest, you're probably not, you d more than likely would have to be born into wealth for that to occur, and would probably be paying a relatively smaller amount of tax than others

No one has asked my dad for a dowry and I don't get paid till Monday and am skint, so I reckon am okay!!!

MayoSalmon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

If you mean 'the 1%' of the wealthiest, you're probably not, you d more than likely would have to be born into wealth for that to occur, and would probably be paying a relatively smaller amount of tax than others

:rolleyes: Sticks finger in the air....

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

No one has asked my dad for a dowry and I don't get paid till Monday and am skint, so I reckon am okay!!!

You should be proud of your class, and the fact you have worked hard to be where you are

Franz Von Peppercorn

Try_harder wrote: »

Poor squeezed middle! Fiachra mightened get his ski holiday this year!

That’s not the squeezed middle. The squeezed middle doesn’t holiday.

Wanderer78

MayoSalmon wrote:

Sticks finger in the air....

Ignoring reality is a good approach to life, please do continue....

Franz Von Peppercorn

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There is no squeezed middle. The middle class is doing quite nicely in a middle of the road, middling rich sort of way.

Anyone who regards themselves as part of a squeezed middle just hasnt woken up to the fact that they are working class, and too poor to be middle class. They are simply deluded. Wannabe middle class as it were.
Feeling squeezed ? Then you arent middle class in the first place.

Yes. But the term middle income has never meant middle class in this country.

It’s an American version of “middle class” we have adopted.

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You should be proud of your class, and the fact you have worked hard to be where you are

I am actually, I started off in a council house that was infested with cockroaches (as was most of the town actually).

I worked from 18 and I'm near 49 now. I've never been on the dole - not that there is anything wrong with that - I just joined a temp agency and did whatever was needed.

Finally I have a decent salary and a nice (albeit rented) house.

I am proud of myself - but I have been told not to be!!! I ignore them mostly!

PlaneSpeeking

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s not the squeezed middle. The squeezed middle doesn’t holiday.

What's this "holiday" you talk of ?

Vague memories of Tunisia 12 years ago!

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

I am proud of myself - but I have been told not to be!!! I ignore them mostly!

Whoever is saying that to you, sound like some ****, fair play

Fann Linn

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

What's this "holiday" you talk of ?

Vague memories of Tunisia 12 years ago!

Kanta hotel 2006. I was there. A pity its all changed.
Happy memories also.

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Whoever is saying that to you, sound like some ****, fair play

In fairness, you're right - they are!

They are staunch Corbyn/Momentum supporters in the UK and think anyone who gets on in life is a class traitor.

My rented gaff is a bungalow (for the aul fella as he's 80 now) and you'd think i was hanging poor kids from washing lines!

PlaneSpeeking

Fann Linn wrote: »

Kanta hotel 2006. I was there. A pity its all changed.
Happy memories also.

Lovely place it was - I think after the shootings on the beach and other things, I'd not go there for love nor money.

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

They are staunch Corbyn/Momentum supporters in the UK and think anyone who gets on in life is a class traitor.

Im a proud lefty, so would have interest in Corbyn, I don't get that feeling from corbyns labour, what makes you think that?

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Im a proud lefty, so would have interest in Corbyn, I don't get that feeling from corbyns labour, what makes you think that?

I have a lot of time for JC himself, spoke very well in the last election debates.

But there are some supporters and indeed MPs who really take things too far. The Momentum movement within the party reminds me of the Militant crowd 30 years ago.

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

But there are some supporters and indeed MPs who really take things too far. The Momentum movement within the party reminds me of the Militant crowd 30 years ago.

UK politics is in a very interesting place, but equally worrying, there's a similar issue occuring across the pond to, we all sit and hope they can pull it together, for everyone's sake

PlaneSpeeking

Wanderer78 wrote: »

UK politics is in a very interesting place, but equally worrying, there's a similar issue occuring across the pond to, we all sit and hope they can pull it together, for everyone's sake

Agreed. I was briefly in the UK in 1997 for Blair's election win and the atmosphere of solidarity was incredible.

d'Oracle

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I used to be working class, until people (the the political parties who support them) starting using that term for people who don't work and have no intention of.

No idea what class to be now!

We need new language and probably political theory.
We insist on using language from the French and Industrial revolutions to describe a system that doesn't exist anymore in Ireland.

The working class , lower middle class and a lot of what you might consider to be the upper middle class is just a scale of earnings expectations and debt access. And in Ireland at least, there isn't really an Aristocracy. That's not the same thing as what Marx was talking about in the 19th century.

PlaneSpeeking

d'Oracle wrote: »

We need new language and probably political theory.
We insist on using language from the French and Industrial revolutions to describe a system that doesn't exist anymore in Ireland.

The working class , lower middle class (petit bourgeoise) and a lot of what you might consider to be the upper middle class is just a scale of earnings expectations and debt access. And in Ireland at least, there isn't really an Aristocracy. That's not the same thing as what Marx was talking about in the 19th century.

Oh I got called Bourgeois one time!!!

I was at a cricket match. Apparently that's all it takes!!

Wanderer78

PlaneSpeeking wrote:

Agreed. I was briefly in the UK in 1997 for Blair's election win and the atmosphere of solidarity was incredible.

But was he truly that good? I'd actually agree with some of the momentum ideologies, things such as austerity simply don't work, this has been well researched now

d'Oracle

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Oh I got called Bourgeois one time!!!

I was at a cricket match. Apparently that's all it takes!!

I deleted "petit bourgeoise" out of the post because I thought it made me look a bit of a wanker.

PlaneSpeeking

d'Oracle wrote: »

I deleted "petit bourgeoise" out of the post because I thought it made me look a bit of a wanker.

Nah! I did that in Sociology A Level a billion years ago.

Before dropping out to go to work - I'm no great loss to the academic community lol!

[Deleted User]

d'Oracle wrote: »

We need new language and probably political theory.
We insist on using language from the French and Industrial revolutions to describe a system that doesn't exist anymore in Ireland.

The working class , lower middle class and a lot of what you might consider to be the upper middle class is just a scale of earnings expectations and debt access. And in Ireland at least, there isn't really an Aristocracy. That's not the same thing as what Marx was talking about in the 19th century.

Absolutely. 100%. It is completely outdated. I don't know if it was ever even appropriate for Ireland - not only because we didn't really go through the industrial revolution or because we were overwhelmingly rural rather than urban where class politics flourishes but also because the vast majority of even wealthy people in Ireland today do not have to go back far at all to find very humble family background (very interestingly Todd & Ruane in Dynamics of the Conflict in Northern Ireland see this latter point as one of the greatest strengths of the nationalists in NI; even with some new wealth they are much more socio-economically similar than the more class-divided old wealth unionists).

Never mind the Hyacinth Bucket types in modern Ireland shopping in M&S and putting on an affected English accent (although revealingly Hyacinth put on a French accent when she wanted to be posh). Bar a few merchants in Cork and other cities (and even a few in Galway during the Penal Laws who became wealthy in the wine trade), we were pretty much all in the gutter due to restrictions on land ownership. Very few Irish Catholics were able to buy Irish land before the final decades of the 19th century (all 4 of my own grandparents , one of whom lived with us growing up, were born in the 1890s so I don't see that as long ago at all).

Additionally, the vast majority of our families benefited enormously from the introduction of free education and healthcare in the 1960s. Free secondary school education (from 1967) in particular was the great game changer in terms of making Irish society more equal and giving chances to whole swathes of society that never had those chances. All economic growth starts with investing in a good education system. Given our history of much greater deprivation, reducing supports for the remaining deprived sections of Irish society, most especially in education, would be an act of suicide by the Irish economy. Brewing up a storm, right there.

animaal

I dunno what I am. Using the link earlier in the thread, my income places me easily in the middle-class. However, my car's old, I don't go on foreign holidays, home improvements are minimal, I don't socialise much..

I put money into my pension, health insurance, savings for kids' education, rainy day fund.

My lifestyle is far from spectacular but many people think the state should take more from me because of what I choose to do with my income. ("You have kids in private education? Remove state supports!", "You have medical insurance? No access to the public system!", "You put money into a pension fund? Reduce tax relief!")

PlaneSpeeking

animaal wrote: »

I dunno what I am. Using the link earlier in the thread, my income places me easily in the middle-class. However, my car's old, I don't go on foreign holidays, home improvements are minimal, I don't socialise much..

I put money into my pension, health insurance, savings for kids' education, rainy day fund.

My lifestyle is far from spectacular but many people think the state should take more from me because of what I choose to do with my income. ("You have kids in private education? Remove state supports!", "You have medical insurance? No access to the public system!", "You put money into a pension fund? Reduce tax relief!")

I waited five years to see a consultant, finally the VHI kicked in and i was seen for a private MRI.

You'd think I had unhooked the drip from a terminally ill child.

"Don't you feel guilty jumping the queue, just cos you're well off ?"

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Moreover, we also need a new understanding of capital, and how despite the stories we hear in After Hours of people taking advantage of the social welfare system, the big picture among that bickering is the rapid decline in equality in the western world since the 1970s, and the increasingly rapid consolidation of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. This is now very well documented, and I'm not sure if there's any economist left denying it (like climate change, there probably is). But After Hours in particular seems to have a load of people missing that bigger picture.

1. Thomas Piketty's Inequality Story in Six Charts

2. Quotes from Thomas Piketty, Capital in the Twenty-First Century

3. And a great insight from Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics, on why growing inequality is undermining western economies:

Joseph Stiglitz Says Standard Economics Is Wrong. Inequality and Unearned Income Kills the Economy

4. Paul Krugman, another Nobel laureate in economics, 'What the 1% don't want you to know':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzQYA9Qjsi0

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Moreover, we also need a new understanding of capital, and how despite the stories we hear in After Hours of people taking advantage of the social welfare system, the big picture among that bickering is the rapid decline in equality in the western world since the 1970s, and the increasingly rapid consolidation of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. This is now very well documented, and I'm not sure if there's any economist left denying it (like climate change, there probably is). But After Hours in particular seems to have a load of people missing that bigger picture.

great post, thank you, these are the kinds of issues ive been trying to explain, but probably largely failed. there are many others explaining very well how these issues have lead us to this point, many of which ive mentioned. all worth checking out. sadly, its understandable why people dont see the bigger picture, and why bogeymen such as the unemployed, the foreigners, the this, the that are blamed for such issues. i to would recommend piketty and stilglizs work in trying to understand these issues.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What, according to the denizens of After Hours, is the gross minimum salary an individual or couple must earn before they can be considered part of the "middle class"?

Income isn’t that relevant. If you inherit a house in ballsbridge, have some money in the bank, you can earn bog all and still be wealthy.

I don’t accept that there’s no established wealth in Ireland either. Very few wage earners can buy in large swathes of Dublin.

MayoSalmon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ignoring reality is a good approach to life, please do continue....

The "Karl Marx" reality of life no doubt..

PlaneSpeeking

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Income isn’t that relevant. If you inherit a house in ballsbridge, have some money in the bank, you can earn bog all and still be wealthy.

I dint buy that there’s no established wealth in Ireland either. Very few wage earners can buy in large swathes of Dublin.

True - I've two cousins who paint themselves as salt of the earth, goood old Dub stock.

Both inherited houses free and clear - one by Croker and one in Collins Avenue!

Landed bleeding gentry lol!!!