dulpit wrote: » One thing I've noticed is that older people (I'm thinking of my parents generation) have a tendency to get annoyed by the increasing letters, especially if they're not particularly tolerant in the first place...
One eyed Jack wrote: » I don't think that's an observation could be solely confined to your parents generation The terminology and etymology of language used is constantly evolving. To take a well known example - the Stonewall Riots. Some academics have suggested that the leaders of the riots were transgender rather than how they would describe themselves, as queens, transvestites. One of the leaders of the riots, Sylvia Riviera, this to say about labels -People now want to call me a lesbian because I'm with Julia, and I say, "No. I'm just me. I'm not a lesbian." I'm tired of being labeled. I don't even like the label transgender. I'm tired of living with labels. I just want to be who I am. I am Sylvia Rivera. Ray Rivera left home at the age of 10 to become Sylvia. And that's who I am. To give you another example, the term SGL, or 'same gender loving' is used primarily in African American communities as a modern day rejection of what are considered 'Eurocentric' labels -Recent studies indicate that African-American disadvantaged youths are less likely than Euro-American youths to self-label as gay male, lesbian, or transgender youths. There are many other examples, such as MOGAI and GSD. One elementary school in Canada caused consternation when the media got hold of their efforts to advertise a course they were offering for teachers -Canadian elementary school teachers attend 'LGGBDTTTIQQAAPP' inclusiveness training session. Would you understand the title?, but snopes.com was quick to get to the source and set the record straight... so to speak, for the very reasons you identified in your opening post -Yes, the poster is genuine. The intent of the title was to draw workshop participants (teachers) by acknowledging that keeping track of diverse LGBTQ identities can be overwhelming, especially as our students are continuously identifying new ones. In our union, we use LGBTQ as an umbrella term for all marginalized sexual and gender identities.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » More transwomen erasure - I.e. TERF ****e
baby and crumble wrote: » How is that trans erasure? If Sylvia herself didn’t identify as trans??
Marsha P. Johnson was an African-American transgender women who was an LGBTQ rights activist and an outspoken advocate for trans people of color. Johnson spearheaded the Stonewall uprising in 1969 and along with Sylvia Rivera, she later established the Street Transvestite (now Transgender) Action Revolutionaries (STAR), a group committed to helping homeless transgender youth in New York City. She was tragically murdered on July 6, 1992 at the age of 46. Her life has been celebrated in numerous books, documentaries, and films.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » https://sites.psu.edu/womeninhistory/2016/10/23/the-unsung-heroines-of-stonewall-marsha-p-johnson-and-sylvia-rivera/https://mic.com/articles/121256/meet-marsha-p-johnson-and-sylvia-rivera-transgender-stonewall-veterans How language evolves with time and understanding.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » It's the simple fact that at the time many terms we now take for granted were not even established - i.e. trans women was not really recognised as a valid identity. The whole trangender movement was still very nebulous. And there are many conflicting reports on how Sylvia identified throughout her life. The very fact we refer to her as "she" should indicate something to you though. As for the other transwoman mentioned in the articles I linked:
JackTaylorFan wrote: » It's that other user's constant attempt of erasure of the T from the larger community that I am highlighting here. And if you haven't noticed their blatant attack, you aren't really paying attention. I mean, seriously, ask yourself why the subject of Riveria was even crow-barred in here. FFS
Joeytheparrot wrote: » Yeah I think its an interesting narrative alright around identities. I once saw someone described in the media as "a woman with a transgender history" I contacted her saying oh the media got that wrong - No she said they didnt. I am a woman. I am not a transgender woman. I define myself as a woman. When I discuss myself nowadays in relation to trans issues I identify myself as "a woman with a transgender history" because being transgender is effectively my past. I am a woman.
Joeytheparrot wrote: » There is of course a huge further debate about widening the letters. For example - If it becomes lgbti does that gay and intersex issues all get lumped in together. Are all interesex people happy with being subsumed into this umbrella. Doesnt it almost dilute intersex issues to be subsumed like that because lgbt people can dominate groups, conversations etc with their needs. Intersex issues are also quite complex and many lgbt people may not have a clue at all
One eyed Jack wrote: » None of the above contradicts anything I've posted. That second link doesn't even work btw. The term transgender had been established at that time. It just didn't apply to Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Riviera who never identified themselves as transgender,
JackTaylorFan wrote: » Sorry, but that is internalised transphobia right there - with a strong hint of delusion. And it's also a harmful message to put out there - that we should be ashamed of being transgender. By no means, do I go around exclaiming I am trans outside Boards, because it will likely get me in some serious trouble - if not killed. But by definition that's what I am, and that's what she is too. You can never change that. It's like you saying I used to be a gay man but because I repress that part of me and choose to be with a woman even though I am still only attracted to men, I am cured. It's bull****; it's an internalised repulsion of oneself caused by desperately trying to fit with societal norms. I am obviously in no way disputing her right to call herself a woman, but delete the trans part as something she has outgrown is damaging to the whole community. Cis women don't suddenly cease being cis and vice versa. What's the message? That somehow being trans is wrong and you should strive to escape the label at some point? I mean, that's a pretty ****ed message, no? And to be honest, my life would be a lot easier if I just stopped caring about the rest of the trans community. If I went on about my life "passing" as I do - in most areas - as cis. All my friends are cis. They sometimes even ask me when the issue of transgender people comes up in conversation: "Why can't you just say you're a woman. I don't see you as trans, I only see you as you: a woman." Yeah, that's nice and all, but it's pretty much dismissing what my experience has been and what I am. .
You mean, the way many LGBT people don't have a clue past their own actual part of the acronym already? Anyways, as far as I understand, the community is all about intersectionality now. Minorities who face similar if not the same problems from being oppressed and discriminated against coming together to form a framework in a fight for awareness and rights. Your concerns about how including intersex people might somehow diminish their rights is completely flawed. It gives them a louder voice to have the support of an entire community behind their message. I do wonder how far do we expand that community though? In America, 2S (or 2 spirit) is now part of the LGBT+ acronym. And to my understanding it is basically another way of saying someone is some variation of trans - but the title is protected and exclusive to those who are Native American. So, in effect, the community is now adding ethnic minorities to the list. I don't necessarily have an issue with that. I attended a talent show recently where disabled people, LGBT+ and travellers were all given a chance to perform, it was okay. Nothing special. But it was an opportunity to see individuals given a voice in front of an audience where they wouldn't ordinarily have done. Is it going too far placing diasbled people, ethnic minorities and LGBT+ people on the same stage? I don't know, and I don't personally care as long as we are all pulling in the same direction
JackTaylorFan wrote: » Literally, a website dedicated to people like Marsha (the one linked in my reply to B&C), calls her a transwoman. For **** sake... That's as much words as I can be bothered to waste with you.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » You mean, the way many LGBT people don't have a clue past their own actual part of the acronym already? Anyways, as far as I understand, the community is all about intersectionality now. Minorities who face similar if not the same problems from being oppressed and discriminated against coming together to form a framework in a fight for awareness and rights. Your concerns about how including intersex people might somehow diminish their rights is completely flawed. It gives them a louder voice to have the support of an entire community behind their message. I do wonder how far do we expand that community though? ... Is it going too far placing diasbled people, ethnic minorities and LGBT+ people on the same stage? I don't know, and I don't personally care as long as we are all pulling in the same direction.
Joeytheparrot wrote: » Interesting. It really surprised me to be honest at the time. I dunno. I really dont. Because of the role this person has in the trans community I cant see the internalised transphobia at all. I went back and looked at it again. What she said was she was trans before treatment, has transitioned as now sees herself as a woman. Its a different perspective to me I have to say. I can see where you are coming from in saying she is rejecting her trans identity. I am not so sure is she is though. She is affirming her own identity as a woman and acknowledging her trans identity a but differently to others. When I look at what this person does for the trans community I struggle to see internalised transphobia. I dont think it is to be honest. On the other hand maybe you are right. As I said I dont fully know. The one thing I do know is for me identifying oneself is the most important and who am I to criticise her for identifying how she decides.
One eyed Jack wrote: » It's the same as you've done with the two-spirit identity - you're contextualising it according to your own standards when the term is actually much broader than that
One eyed Jack wrote: » You don't care as long as people are pulling in the same direction as yourself, but when they're pulling in a different direction, you appear to want to push them back into line to fit with your world view and your narratives of identities.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » But it's not though. The 2 Spirit thing refers to a Native American person who happens to identify and express themselves as a variant from the 2 traditional genders - i.e. a 3rd gender. Which to be perfectly blunt falls under the gender spectrum somewhere in the trans region.
I could make the reverse argument that Aboriginals are trying to erase a certain aspect of trans from their community.
Gender variation is common throughout history in all cultures, they all just have different narratives applied. I'm kind of sick of the non-scientific, mystical approach myself though.
One eyed Jack wrote: » When you try to push your perspective and your narratives on other people who aren't you, you're using your considerably greater influence and power to oppress and suppress and subsume their identity into your narrative (and I don't mean just you personally, I've seen many people do it which is why I've always objected to it being done), then other people who aren't you are going to point out that they do not subscribe to your narratives of their identities or how you determine they should be identified or identify themselves.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » Gender variation is what it is, what it is, what it is. I am not dismissing anybody's identity; I am dismissing unscientific nonsense (with the greatest respect for unscientific nonsense, of course). I think transubstantiation is a load of mystic bollox, too, but I am not saying people can't identify as Catholic. Anyways, always nice we can disagree so fundamentally about everything.
P.s: Nice touch with the "western anti-scientific" jab - dogs barking all over town
JackTaylorFan wrote: » I'm sorry, I really can't wrap my head around some people in the trans community - especially some of the people making a living out of acting as spokespeople for us. To be honest, the logic of the woman in question is deeply flawed. As I said, if you are born cis, you remain cis. Same with trans.I do not know this person you speak of, but what she said sounds deeply unhelpful to me. A woman with a transgender history? You have got to be kidding me. I've been trans since the day I was born; I'll die trans. I don't consider myself any less of a woman because of this. I am not trying to escape my past like some in the community.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » What kind of garbage are you spouting now? We are talking about gaining rights for a whole group of oppressed people. We are not talking about one individual. And I have no problem with non-trans LGBT+ representatives who understand the issues speaking out on our behalf - as was done very recently in the Seanád by Fintan Warfield. But yes, if some people in the wider LGBTQ+ community are denying the rights of another for whatever ignorant reason they might have, that affects them in no way whatsoever, of course I'm gonna tell them to shut the hell up and stay in their lane.
EdgeCase wrote: » To me, particularly after watching Pigeon's videos, which were both eye-opening and very sad viewing, it looks like society vastly overcomplicates a simple thing: you are who you are and only you can define what that is.
J_E wrote: » I think everyone has their own lived experience and maybe sometimes, it's best to trust how they feel comfortable identifying themselves as. Particularly when it comes to a less clear spectrum of identity. Regarding the letters - I think it is becoming a problem attempting to add too many letters. I have always thought LGBT or LGBT+, even though not explicitly mentioning every case of a sexual minority, has been suitable enough to describe those communities. I think to attempt to fit 6-8 letters just becomes a 'marketing issue' when trying to discuss causes with people outside of the community and it creates too much confusion and ambiguity. I think it takes focus away from more serious issues when it comes to discussing rights, healthcare, social issues. In fact, I think sometimes 'Queer' is a better term altogether in encompassing that kind of experience.
Joeytheparrot wrote: » But heres the thing if she was trying to escape her past then she wouldnt be so active within the trans community. Who am I question her identity or how you identify? I just dont see any internalised transphobia there given her role. I know a few trans community activists. It often saddens me a lot how much work they put into their community and how much backlash they often get back. The amount of work the they put into changing Ireland, improving trans people through education and legislation is unreal. Lets not forget Irelands trans laws have significantly changed for the better in a huge way in the last 3 years. They are often recognised as a world leader. I also don't really understand insisting identity. It's like the idea that men who have sex with men automatically have to be boxed into being identified as gay or bi. They dont.
cisgender: denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex.
One eyed Jack wrote: » I don't know why you read that the way you did, but the point I was alluding to is that the western cultural perspective of science was historically once and still is to a large extent a xenophobic, racist, classist, bigoted paradigm. Some people would even say it's just WEIRD.
One eyed Jack wrote: » It kinda reminds me of a video I watched a while back called 'Paris is Burning', where one of the most tragic parts of the film is the "passing" pageant, like they're trying to pass off an identity as 'civilised folk' in order to be acceptable to be assimilated into white Western cultural ideals of a 'civilised' society, while trying to maintain a sense of their own identity -
Joeytheparrot wrote: » Yeah I have to agree with you on this. Individualism for me is a completely abhorrent philosophy. It emphasises some good things like freedom and of coyrse personal autonomy but then when taken too far to its extremes it is all about basically pure heartless selfishness and survival of the fittest (basically **** minorities and let the rich well connected trample on everyone). We would never be where with womens rights, lgbt rights, human rights, workers rights generally if we took an individualist approach to life. We would still be in a society where would be massive structural exploitation of workers, opression/discrimination of lgbt people, women, people with disabilities. If the like of Marsha Johnson and Sylvia Rivera took an individualist approach to life and political activism then who knows how backward we would be in terms of lgbt rights. We certainly wouldnt have had much social and political improvements for LGBT peoples lives that we have had in the West for sure.
On September 22, 1975, President Gerald Ford, while visiting San Francisco, walked from his hotel to his car. In the crowd, Sara Jane Moore raised a gun to shoot him. A former Marine who had been walking by grabbed her arm as the gun discharged toward the pavement. The bystander was Oliver "Bill" Sipple, who had left Milk's ex-lover Joe Campbell years before, prompting Campbell's suicide attempt. The national spotlight was on him immediately. On psychiatric disability leave from the military, Sipple refused to call himself a hero and did not want his sexuality disclosed. Milk, however, took advantage of the opportunity to illustrate his cause that public perception of gay people would be improved if they came out of the closet. He told a friend: "It's too good an opportunity. For once we can show that gays do heroic things, not just all that ca-ca about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms." Milk contacted a newspaper. Several days later Herb Caen, a columnist at The San Francisco Chronicle, exposed Sipple as gay and a friend of Milk's. The announcement was picked up by national newspapers, and Milk's name was included in many of the stories. Time magazine named Milk as a leader in San Francisco's gay community. Sipple, however, was besieged by reporters, as was his family. His mother, a staunch Baptist in Detroit, now refused to speak to him. Although he had been involved with the gay community for years, even participating in Gay Pride events, Sipple sued the Chronicle for invasion of privacy. President Ford sent Sipple a note of thanks for saving his life. Milk said that Sipple's sexual orientation was the reason he received only a note, rather than an invitation to the White House.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » Really? You have no idea? Sure... Anyways... To the question of western science: Well, the only people I ever hear accusing modern medicine/science of being all the things you just listed, is ironically, the xenophobic, the racist, classist and bigoted - funny that, huh? And "weird"? Well, yeah, I'm sure thunder and lightning was weird to a caveman too.
JackTaylorFan wrote: » I like this though... kinda sounds like someone saying "I am a woman with a transgender history" to me - funny that.
