nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Deep Space Nine Runthrough

[Deleted User]

Since DS9 has been added to Netflix Ireland, I've been making my through it from the very beginning, which I haven't done since their initial air date. I always sing its praise, but this rewatch has made me remember exactly why I enjoyed it.

As I mentioned in the Netflix thread, because it's not about exploration (as such) or many other things the other Treks are known for, and has a stationary position, it allows it to build up a much more character and story driven background.

The first and second season (which I've rewatched so far) make for interesting viewing - the rebuilding of Bajor, the problems that they face because of it, and already in those seasons there are so many fantastically emotional episodes with some great acting -

The Cardasian that surgically altered his face, because he feels he should be punished for doing nothing

especially stands out.

Anyone else rewatching this? What are your opinions for it?

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Been having a bit of a DS9 revisit the last few days myself. It still holds up well IMO and far better than the latest offering. Watching Homefront at the moment.

I write this every time this episode is mentioned but keep an eye out for the secret Enterprise (one of the ships, not the series) cameo.

Indricotherium

[Deleted User] wrote: »

.

Discovery has had a better first season of any Trek barring TOS (for its time)

It's just so boring

pixelburp

I'd be pretty neat if Combs got a part on Discovery, feels like the obvious cameo for an alien role.

TheValeyard

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd be pretty neat if Combs got a part on Discovery, feels like the obvious cameo for an alien role.

He should play a Gorn.

[Deleted User]

miles is on about the 'warp matrix flux capacitor'. lols
this is truly the end

breen: garblegarble
founder: no pls don't leave me
breen: garblegarble = you're trying to exterminate the cardassians sooooo we wanna go over there before we are next SEE YA ->
founder: well i suppose. you're very noble to lead our troops into battle how glorious
breen: garblegarble = that's definitely what we're doing yeah

kai winn: ok bajoran dukat i know i hated you like 5 mins ago but we're friends now drink this wine
dukat: aw im so relieved THANK YOU
kai winn: lol is poison got u. ps did u forget we are worshiping EVIL gods now

i love this show

odo: nerys im off to the gamma quadrant
nerys: odo i know we have no chemistry and just greeted each other like long distant friends even tho i thought you were dying for the last 3 weeks and just found out you're apparently not but thats a long way to go to avoid me
odo: yeah well

vic: hey pally!

Pah Dukat: guess who's back baby
Kai winn: oh ****
sisko: you're pathetic
pah dukat: I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

Discovery has had a better first season of any Trek barring TOS (for its time)

Hard to argue against this. Traditionally, all Trek shows have been pretty lame at their beginning. I feel Discovery largely hit the ground running.

Hector Savage

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Continues is very well done and the production values are really high.

Also watch DS9 before i slap you.

Aye aye Sir!

Inviere

Hector Savage wrote: »

Aye aye Sir!

One Aye is sufficient acknowledgment Hector...

Hector Savage

pixelburp

Well, I finished. And would you believe it folks, while watching 'What You Leave Behind', the room just became SUPER dusty. Crazy stuff

Can't really add anything that I haven't already done in this thread: I've no doubt in my mind this was the best Trek series ever made, and that's including TOS. Smart, complex, funny, human, humane, exciting, dark, optimistic-yet-pragmatic; the best compliment I always feel I can give any show is that I'll genuinely miss the characters. No flat meat puppets in Starfleet uniforms, but a cast of rounded, interesting humans and aliens alike. I'm struggling to pick a favourite among them tbh.

Only quibble was the dropped ball during the little flashbacks for the departing crew; the absence of Jadzia during Worf's reminiscence was pretty unfortunate and a bit disrespectful.

TheIrishGrover

I've said it before on other threads, DS9 was always my favourite. Look at how you grew to love the characters.

The reluctant messiah who was, by far, the most human lead on any of the Treks. Who did what was needed, not always what was easy or "right". Can you imagine any other captain doing what Cisco did in "In the pale moonlight" (Or whatever that episode was called)
His son. Just a kid. Not a technical prodigy. Just a likable kid who grew up before our eyes.
The Irish Engineer who was more than just a re-skin of a Scotty re-skin. He actually has a history/life outside of Engineering.
The initially, intentionally, quite annoying know-it-all Doctor who really grew on ya.
The alien who was torn between his people and his friends as war came.

Look how much you knew about the secondary, guest stars:
The Ferengi kid who wanted to prove he, and the Ferengi, were more than a one-trick pony.
The initial "Bad-guy lackey" who because a freedom fighter.
Morn!
Christ, even the holodek singer (I actually enjoyed Vic

)

Compare to Enterprise which was launched with such fanfare (No pun intended). I mean a lot of money was spent on Enterprise (Initially at least) and CBS put a lot of focus on it. What do you get?

Quantum Leap guy.
Hot alien chick
Southern guy.
Brit (And I do mean "Brit" as in real stereotype. All he was missing was a catchphrase asking for a cuppa each episode)
Hot asian chick
Unbelievably bland black guy.
Stupid alien design doc.

Falling back on Episode-of-the-week really hurt them. Xindi arc was an improvement but then..... Spaaaaaaaaceeee Nazis.........

Just thank CBS/God we actually had DS9. It is missed but at least US mainstream Nwtwork TV had a moment of braveness to create such a complex show for a mainstream audience.

_Kaiser_

^^

I'd have to add...

- Dukat: The best Trek villain by a country mile and for me up there with other TV/film villains like Hans Gruber. Not just a one-dimensional stereotype but a complex developed character who you hate, sympathise with, and laugh with/at at various times. The majority of that is down to Mark Alaimo and some great stories and writing for him

- Garak: Another all-round fantastic character and again down to the actor and stories. Like Dukat, could go from witty and charming to menacing (and back again) in a heartbeat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mba5Nf520

But really pretty much all of the recurring cast were fully developed over the series and the show still holds up really well today as a result

TheIrishGrover

What the hell???!!! How the hell did I miss Garak? He was my favourite...

odyssey06

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

What the hell???!!! How the hell did I miss Garak? He was my favourite...

Advanced Obsidian Order training.

pixelburp

I don't think there was a single weak link in the shows cast (well, maybe Ezri but I've banged that drum enough & it was an 11th hour change), and if there was it was quickly addressed through smart rewrites. Let's be honest, Bashir was utterly obnoxious at the beginning, but without completely breaking the character the tweaks softened those edges, gave him a brilliant bromance with O'Brien, rivalry with Garak, and even managed to make his superiority complex be part of a character arc via the genetic engineering reveal.

IvySlayer

Last few seasons I didn't like some of the forced relationships. I liked Kasidy/Sisko, Leeta/Rom and Jadzia/Worf.

Kira/Odo felt too forced. Jadzia/Julian/Worf painful...

Rawr

IvySlayer wrote: »

Kira/Odo felt too forced.

+1 This!

I get that they spent most of the show building up this relationship...but when it finally happened the whole affair was just filled with *awkward*. I just didn't buy the whole Kira / Odo relationship. Characters getting all angsty and just saying that they love each other isn't enough to build a convincing romance angle. Sure, that was part of the reason the "romance" in Attack of the Clones with such a car crash.

Hell...I was more convinced of the "nearly affair" between Kira and O'Brien, and that was just one episode!

Daith

IvySlayer wrote: »

Kira/Odo felt too forced.

Yeah I think the same too. I'm fine with Jadzia/Worf but Kira and Odo always seemed off. I think they could have done the same breaking up scene with them just as friends.

pixelburp

The actual romantic angle was too forced and super cheesy, but I actually quite liked how the show slowly developed the two characters. It reminded me a little of Adama & Roslin from the Battlestar reboot - in that both were rare examples on TV of an (older) friendship that gradually, gently blossomed into companionship and love. TV fiction likes to emphasise the high drama of ups and downs and whirlwind romances - all in the service of the drama-as-conflict cliché - almost never capturing the quiet partnership between 2 people who love each other. What you could call being soulmates I suppose; Odo & Kira were that kind of couple IMO (again, barring the cheesy Vic Fontaine tinged rubbish).

In many respects, one of DS9 triumphs was how it established little 'pods' of character couplings - and not necessarily romantic ones. You had: Kira & Odo; Odo & Quark; Quark and Rom; O'Brien & Bashir; Bashir & Garak; Worf & Jadzia; Kira & Dukat; Sisko & Kassidy; Sisko & Jake; Jake & Nog; etc. etc. Must have made the writing much easier to formulate when you had these subsets of organic relationships to call on. So the writers didn't have to roll dice and come up with a Crusher & LaForge episode.

muckwarrior

Owryan wrote: »

Just started a run through on Netflix myself. Interesting seeing how the characters are played in the early episodes compared to the later seasons...... Julian really fancies himself as a ladies man

Started rewatching it a couple of weeks ago. Julian is a total creep. He wouldn't last a week in a real life workplace before being fired for sexual harassment!

One thing I hadn't remembered from watching it years ago is just how bad an actor Avery Brooks is. It constantly sounds like he's just reading the script off a page.

Inviere

muckwarrior wrote: »

Started rewatching it a couple of weeks ago. Julian is a total creep. He wouldn't last a week in a real life workplace before being fired for sexual harassment!

I always find it interesting how Kirk (especially in the JJ movies) gets a free pass for leering at women, presumably because, well, he's Kirk...while Julian gets labeled as being a creep because he has a doe-eyed obsession with Jadzia (who we all know self-admittedly enjoyed his attention anyway). I'm due a rewatch of DS9 at some stage, but having seen it several times over the years, I see Julian's thing for Jadzia as how it was written and intended. I don't remember ever thinking "eh, sexual assault alert". If the writers ever gave the impression Jadzia had an issue with his behaviour, I'd agree, but it was written that she got a kick out of it, so that'll do me.

One thing I hadn't remembered from watching it years ago is just how bad an actor Avery Brooks is. It constantly sounds like he's just reading the script off a page.

Brooks, along with most others in the show, took a while to hit their stride. To label him a bad actor is absurd.

muckwarrior

Inviere wrote: »

I don't remember ever thinking "eh, sexual assault alert".

In the latest episode I watched, he was trying to badger her into going back to his place for dinner. She refused so he offered to buy her a coffee, but she said no because it'd keep her up all night, to which he replied "I can think of so many better ways to keep you up all night". She promptly said good night and left, so he got up and followed her to her quarters! If that's not workplace harassment then I don't know what is.

Inviere wrote: »

To label him a bad actor is absurd.

Absurd? Seems a lot of people agree with me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/49plai/does_anybody_here_consider_avery_brooks_to_be_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/7nvwk8/can_we_please_talk_about_avery_brooks_sisko/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/42dfej/anyone_else_think_avery_brooks_sisko_is_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/2e0gn8/what_do_you_think_of_avery_brooks_acting/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/avery-brookss-really-weird-acting.117281/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-avery-brooks-a-good-actor.237034/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/do-you-consider-avery-brooks-a-good-actor.70235/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/did-brooks-eccentric-acting-put-people-off.55805/
https://pippem.com/avery-brooks-sisko-good-bad-actor/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8069779
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7111137&postcount=13
https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/delta_ass/blog/my-thoughts-on-deep-space-9-and-why-i-disliked-it/43000/?comment_page=1

Inviere

muckwarrior wrote: »

In the latest episode I watched, he was trying to badger her into going back to his place for dinner. She refused so he offered to buy her a coffee, but she said no because it'd keep her up all night, to which he replied "I can think of so many better ways to keep you up all night". She promptly said good night and left, so he got up and followed her to her quarters! If that's not workplace harassment then I don't know what is.

Yeah, as I said, a doe-eyed obsession between friends. Jadzia had him well under control, and again, enjoyed his attention for what it was. She was well able for him.

Absurd? Seems a lot of people agree with me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/49plai/does_anybody_here_consider_avery_brooks_to_be_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/7nvwk8/can_we_please_talk_about_avery_brooks_sisko/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/42dfej/anyone_else_think_avery_brooks_sisko_is_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/2e0gn8/what_do_you_think_of_avery_brooks_acting/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/avery-brookss-really-weird-acting.117281/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-avery-brooks-a-good-actor.237034/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/do-you-consider-avery-brooks-a-good-actor.70235/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/did-brooks-eccentric-acting-put-people-off.55805/
https://pippem.com/avery-brooks-sisko-good-bad-actor/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8069779
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7111137&postcount=13
https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/delta_ass/blog/my-thoughts-on-deep-space-9-and-why-i-disliked-it/43000/?comment_page=1

Many would and do agree with the opposite too, so where does that leave us?

muckwarrior

Inviere wrote: »

Many would and do agree with the opposite too, so where does that leave us?

The mere fact that it's controversial and so debated points to him not being good. The main defence from people seems to be that he's more suited to stage acting. Also, I've no doubt that he has some scenes where he's very good, but to me, if an actor's acting distracts me from the character or scene, then that's bad acting.

Inviere

muckwarrior wrote: »

The mere fact that it's controversial and so debated points to him not being good.

Wow, an interesting approach to critiquing an actor. So unless there's unanimous praise, they're bad? Seems a bit bizarre...

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

Yeah, as I said, a doe-eyed obsession between friends. Jadzia had him well under control, and again, enjoyed his attention for what it was. She was well able for him.

Haha, I dunno. I appreciate that Jadzia was capable of dealing with his advances, but it always felt like in those early days it was mostly Jadzia being Kurzon, rather than the more interesting mix she later became. Julian was a creep though, 'doe eyed' only stretches so far; I love where the character eventually went, but that described behaviour previously was stalking at best, sexual assault at worst. You certainly never saw anything remotely like it with any other "Julian falls in love with..." plots later on.

It wasn't a particularly singular case of a screenwriting trope either: for obvious reasons it's not visible anymore, but there was a pretty common cliché for romantic pairings to write the man as the affable "nice guy", simply too in love to take 'no' for an answer, and pretty much stalking & harassing her til - hooray! - she gives up and sees what a lovely guy he really is. I never thought of it was deliberately malicious, but only accidentally letting the eagerness to pair off the fictional characters, at the expense of normal, acceptable behaviour.

Now, that's not me getting on my high horse or anything, just that those season 1 decisions made him a total creeper, and given how definitively it disappeared from the show, I suspect the writers knew this too

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

Now, that's not me getting on my high horse or anything, just that those season 1 decisions made him a total creeper, and given how definitively it disappeared from the show, I suspect the writers knew this too

As I said, Kirk gets a free pass for similar (leering at total strangers etc), but he's Jim Kirk...that's ok. It's fashionable to jump on Bashir though. Yes, I grant he was quite persistent with Jadzia, and in the real world, it's obviously unacceptable behaviour. It wasn't written to be creepy though, it's just modern trends have put a spotlight on it.

pixelburp

Oh no, I think Kirk's behaviour - along with many moments in TOS - have aged just as poorly & he's no different to other Male Power Fantasies such as James Bond and the like. TOS definitely gets more free passes than DS9, but that's probably because of the longer passage of time & how much of a sacred cow TOS has become (let's face it, some of the worst Trek ever put to screen came from that run!).

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

Oh no, I think Kirk's behaviour - along with many moments in TOS - have aged just as poorly & he's no different to other Male Power Fantasies such as James Bond and the like. TOS definitely gets more free passes than DS9, but that's probably because of the longer passage of time...

The JJ-verse Kirk I think was even worse than prime Kirk (my off hand knowledge of TOS isn't the best admiteddly)...and those films are all within the last decade. Granted, they're only very minor scenes, but I feel given they were written almost twenty years AFTER Bashir's season 1 writing, they're far more striking. I actually think such scenes detract from the character, almost as if he can't control his impulses toward complete strangers.

...how much of a sacred cow TOS has become (let's face it, some of the worst Trek ever put to screen came from that run!).

Agreed, TOS isn't something I put on a pedestal. It's damn near 60 years old though, and somewhat paved the way for what came after. I do enjoy the TOS films though I must say.

pixelburp

It's probably another one of the things that makes Wrath of Khan (and to a lesser extent, the Search for Spock) such great films; they held Kirk's lechery and womanising to account, forcing him to confront a past conquest in Dr. Carol Marcus and the obvious immediate consequences of that dalliance - a son. The actor playing the son was pretty poor, but it's a shame Search for Spock killed off David so soon (and subsequent scripts never mentioning him again).

As for the JJverse, welllllll. Yeah. Kirk's womanising was the least of those films' problems!