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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Quin_Dub

This thread is for the continuing discussion of Donald Trumps's presidency in the US and any related matters.

Please ensure that you are familiar with the charter before posting.

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Captain Obvious

Here's the interview with Hannity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfS2n21Cnpo

Skip to 15.41 for his thoughts on the investigation.

Professor Moriarty

ELM327 wrote: »

A quick google produces a definition.
I did assume by posting in the Politics forum that there would be a base understanding of the difference between left and right wing.

I'm aware of Google and Wikipedia's existence. Specifically, how would you describe the 'left' in the US? If you can't define it then your definition is a lazy and meaningless generalisation.

ELM327

Pa8301 wrote: »

What basis do you have for this belief that he changed his mind?

Because the interview he doesn't mumble or mis speak, and if you were to believe that his script said wouldn't, the rest of that speech makes no sense in that context

StringerBell

As I've mentioned before, there is no hope for consensus with anybody who is still defending this particular instance, surely it just serves as a guide for how much effort to put into future dealings?

There is no way if the shoe were on the other foot they would not see things completely differently. I hate to bring up Obama but could you imagine the outrage if it were him and not Trump?

Justifiably also, course no other president I could think of would publicly criticise his own country and even give the appearance of siding with a foreign power over his own.

His summit press conference was a disaster, his walk back even worse. These things do not need to be debated there is acceptance on both sides or the left right and reasonable divide.

Will it bring Trump down? Course not, he's Teflon. Is it treason? No and that hyperbole hurts reasoned debate and gives them a deflection shield.

The investigation keeps moving forward, it must be allowed to finish it's work. Whatever it comes out with it comes out with. If it clears him so be it , but if not then the real fight will begin as there is no way you can see him going quietly or with dignity.

Pa8301

ELM327 wrote: »

Because the interview he doesn't mumble or mis speak, and if you were to believe that his script said wouldn't, the rest of that speech makes no sense in that context

So why didn't he just say he changed his mind rather than lying about misspeaking?

ELM327

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm aware of Google and Wikipedia's existence. Specifically, how would you describe the 'left' in the US? If you can't define it then your definition is a lazy and meaningless generalisation.

Well then why did you ask me what it meant.
It's common within the American English parlance to use "the left" and "the right" (or, more annoyingly now, "the alt right") to define both sides of US politics.

Generally speaking the Democrats are on the left/liberal side and the Republicans are on the right/conservative side. You have exceptions for both (eg Peter Thiel is a gay conservative) but generally speaking most politicians occupy various points on the spectrum of left/right divide, as per their party allegiance. America is very much a bipartisan system.

In simple terms, Left/Democrat outlook would be high tax high governance and high government spending, with a more liberal social outlook. Right/Republican outlook would be lower taxation, lower government involvement and higher states rights. Combined with a more conservative social outlook.

"The Left" in my post above referred to anyone with left leaning political outlook.

StringerBell

Not everybody is left or right, it's not a team sport. An awful lot of people are left leaning on some issues and right leaning on others. Humans are complex funnily enough.

ELM327

StringerBell wrote: »

Not everybody is left or right, it's not a team sport. An awful lot of people are left leaning on some issues and right leaning on others. Humans are complex funnily enough.

Like I said about me...
Socially center left, Fiscally far right.

StringerBell

Funniest bit about the walk back was how long they worked on it and how that was the best they could come up with. An embarrassing day for the administration, one of many I suppose.

StringerBell

ELM327 wrote: »

Like I said about me...
Socially center left, Fiscally far right.

What does a far right fiscal person think?

I understand fiscal conservatives sure, but there must be a distinction between that and fiscally far right, can you explain the difference basically?

Trump for example is certainly not very fiscally conservative(couldn't fit into a far right description at the very least), is this an issue you have with him?

Pa8301

StringerBell wrote: »

Funniest bit about the walk back was how long they worked on it and how that was the best they could come up with. An embarrassing day for the administration, one of many I suppose.

And then how Trump walked back on the walk back with his little ad lib at the end...

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

As I said, I believe he did change his mind. I dont think even The Donald believes the story of misspoken words

So you believe he changed his mind based on what? Is there a particular point in time, a particular piece of evidence?

When did he change his mind? Before the summit or after he returned to the WH?

But by changing his mind, he now accepts that he, and his supporters, have been wrong all this time about the witch-hunt. The biggest witch hunt in history.

Recall, that he fired Comey because of the whole Russian thing, another mistake on his part (I know you will all come out and say that Comey deserved it, but Trump stated he fired him for that reason, nothing else).

Why has Trump refused to be interviewed by Mueller? There is no collusion, he accepts that Russia meddled and that Mueller is investigating that.

What should happen to Trump Jr now that it s clear is was played by Russian intelligence as part of a wider election meddling scheme?

Did Sessions have meetings with Kysliak have any bearing on proving info to the Russias in the endeavours?

The problem is that rather than solve the problem, Trump has actually made things much worse. If he stuck to the line that he didn't believe it then at least you could understand his cries against the investigation, he failure to take Putin to task over it, his failure to do anything to hold Russia to account or his failure to direct his services to actively guard against it.

But then we have the prospect that Trump lied to the nation yesterday at the press conference and does not take anything credibility of the security services.

But if he does believe the Russia meddled in the process, a clear attack on the US, and yet chose to do nothing about it, well that is a dereliction of his sworn duty to protect the US.

Which one are most most comfortable with?

Blowfish

ELM327 wrote: »

Like I said about me...
Socially center left, Fiscally far right.

So why do you support Trump then?

Socially, with things like the transgender military ban, his views on muslims and on South American immigrants, Trump is nowhere near your claimed center left position.

Fiscally, with massive budget expenditure, huge increase in military budget and addition of protectionist tarriffs, Trump is nowhere near your claimed far right position.

Chips Lovell

No link dumping please. This is a discussion forum. Don't just paste in links to Twitter.

Thanks

Professor Moriarty

ELM327 wrote: »

Like I said about me...
Socially center left, Fiscally far right.

Can you not see the self-contradicting flaw in your logic? You've just shot a hole your own use of 'left'.

robinph

StringerBell wrote: »

Funniest bit about the walk back was how long they worked on it and how that was the best they could come up with. An embarrassing day for the administration, one of many I suppose.

...and he claimed to be oblivious to the outrage that was going on. Like he doesn't have a bunch of journalists on AirForce One with him or live TV whilst in the air or anyway of receiving communications from the US whilst abroad?

Then when the lights went out during the misspoken correction photo call his instinct is to make a joke about the intelligence community being out to get him. Or the addition of the line that it was definitely Russia wot did it, unless of course it was someone else, and there are lots of people so it might not have been Russia?!?!?!?!

Was also odd in that photo call correction that despite the press having reported the opposite of what he thinks he might have possibly meant to say, he wasn't screaming FAKE NEWS throughout and blaming the press for having reported on what he actually said. He seemed to be being nice to the press and asking them for a favour and to tell the people the correct version of his lies for him.

Nothing on Twitter to correct what he thinks he meant with his slip of the tongue and to have a go at the press for reporting on what he actually did say. Who has managed to kick him into behaving, apologising, and to mostly read from a script without too much deviation, repetition, or mentions of how great his golf courses are.

dr.fuzzenstein

ELM327 wrote: »

Let's see what changes Trump as POTUS brings, and the reason I side with him:
Too many liberal changes (CHECK)

Creeping in socialism that didnt work (Obamacare)(CHECK)

Unhappy at left wing ideology being enforced on all, when this is only really supported in California,NY and a couple of other large areas - but the states as a collective union do not generally support (NB look at the geographic vote dispersion)(CHECK)

Taking some sort of action against the border problem, terrorism and immigration (CHECK)

Being a "voice for the voiceless" in the whitehouse, IE those who do not support or conform to this liberal agenda.(CHECK)

OK, let's just go through this list.
Too many liberal changes. I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify? Exactly what changes?
How did those changes impact or disadvantage you and how has the situation improved?

Obamacare, you are unhappy that people were afforded healthcare and Trump fixed this problem to your satisfaction. I'm not 100% up on this, I thought Obamacare still existed?

Enforced left wing ideology, what has been enforced on you? How has the situation improved?

The border control, what has improved? He hasn't built a wall and he was forced to row back on seperating children from their families.
Barbara Bush and his own party called him on it.

Also, what terrorism? How many people were killed in the US through islamic terrorists vs people killed by Americans?
Wouldn't it make more sense to encat proper gun controls to stop thousands of deaths every year through gun violence, rather than spend billions on security to fix a problem that only exists in people's phantasy?

And, a voice for the voicelss.
I guess that is a win for anyone who always wanted someone to speak out against the tyranny of liberals, women, foreigners, people of the wrong religion. I can't argue with you there.

But seriously, can you factually address these points?
Because as they are written, they seem to give the impression that you at least voted for the man because you dislike liberals (fair enough) and that was all the motivation you needed.
Where there any other points of policy that attracted you to Trump, or was the sole reason for voting for him a feeling of resentment towards liberals?
I can't figure out how they supposedly encroach upon your life or how you are being forced to do something or not do something that you don't agree with.

seamus

ELM327 wrote: »

As I said, I believe he did change his mind. I dont think even The Donald believes the story of misspoken words

There are so many alarming things about this statement. If you were talking about your partner, I'd suspect you were being abused.

"He lied, but he did it for noble reasons, so that makes it OK". That's the line you've gone down.

And not only that - you have absolutely no rational basis on which to make the assertion that he has changed his mind. None, whatsoever. You have decided that he has changed his mind, because it suits your personal belief.

He has, for months, rallied against those involved in the Russia investigation. Attacked, time and time again, Mueller and others. He has rubbished the notion of Russian collusion, even when faced with raw evidence from his own son's email account. He has had private meetings with Putin, he has applauded him as a stand-up guy, incapable of such terrible acts. He has spoken out against his own intelligence agencies, calling them wrong and flawed.

This has been a persistent narrative since the beginning of his presidency; Russia are good, anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

And this is the party line he maintained in Helsinki - "Putin's a good guy, the FBI are wrong".

And you're trying to claim that in less than 24 hours he then "changed his mind". Based on what? What evidence do you have that he has changed his mind? None.

You are being gaslighted. Not the world, not "liberals", but you, his support base. He says whatever he wants because he knows that you will retroactively invent any nonsense whatsoever to explain or justify his actions.

Look at it objectively. There is no evidence that he has changed his mind. His claim that he "misspoke" indicates that maybe he had changed his mind before Helsinki. But two TV interviews afterwards prove otherwise.

Therefore we know that for a fact that it was not a "misspeak".

And we also know for a fact that he has not changed his mind, unless we are also to accept that he is the most fickle person in history and will row back on months of declared hardline positions, in a matter of hours and with no new evidence.

Therefore logically, there is only one conclusion:

He has not changed his mind AND he has lied about his statement in Helsinki.

His support base will refuse to accept that. You will refuse to accept that, you will counter with yet more completely unfounded narrative about what he was trying to do. The truth is right in front of you, but Trump has successfully pulled the wool over your eyes and made fools of his base.

[Edit:

This conclusion in turn leads to another question: "Why would Donald Trump continue to fight the cause of Russian innocence, even in the face of pressure so immense that it made him lie to the media?"

The answer to which, we already know. He has been colluding with Russia for years. When he went bankrupt, the US banks wouldn't give him any money, so he turned to Russian oligarchs, of which Putin is the head honcho. Trump is in hock to Putin for several hundred million dollars, and has no choice but to dance to Putin's tune.

ELM327

StringerBell wrote: »

What does a far right fiscal person think?

I understand fiscal conservatives sure, but there must be a distinction between that and fiscally far right, can you explain the difference basically?

Trump for example is certainly not very fiscally conservative(couldn't fit into a far right description at the very least), is this an issue you have with him?

Repealing obamacare was a right wing decision.
Right wing would generally also favour military expenditure and spending on defense

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you believe he changed his mind based on what? Is there a particular point in time, a particular piece of evidence?

When did he change his mind? Before the summit or after he returned to the WH?

But by changing his mind, he now accepts that he, and his supporters, have been wrong all this time about the witch-hunt. The biggest witch hunt in history.

Recall, that he fired Comey because of the whole Russian thing, another mistake on his part (I know you will all come out and say that Comey deserved it, but Trump stated he fired him for that reason, nothing else).

Why has Trump refused to be interviewed by Mueller? There is no collusion, he accepts that Russia meddled and that Mueller is investigating that.

What should happen to Trump Jr now that it s clear is was played by Russian intelligence as part of a wider election meddling scheme?

Did Sessions have meetings with Kysliak have any bearing on proving info to the Russias in the endeavours?

The problem is that rather than solve the problem, Trump has actually made things much worse. If he stuck to the line that he didn't believe it then at least you could understand his cries against the investigation, he failure to take Putin to task over it, his failure to do anything to hold Russia to account or his failure to direct his services to actively guard against it.

But then we have the prospect that Trump lied to the nation yesterday at the press conference and does not take anything credibility of the security services.

But if he does believe the Russia meddled in the process, a clear attack on the US, and yet chose to do nothing about it, well that is a dereliction of his sworn duty to protect the US.

Which one are most most comfortable with?

I believe he changed his mind as he has changed his view, and I do not believe the story presented as the reason for change.

Blowfish wrote: »

So why do you support Trump then?

Socially, with things like the transgender military ban, his views on muslims and on South American immigrants, Trump is nowhere near your claimed center left position.

Fiscally, with massive budget expenditure, huge increase in military budget and addition of protectionist tarriffs, Trump is nowhere near your claimed far right position.

Center left = Voted yes to abortion, yes to SSM, yes to divorce.

I don't care for the military ban on trans people (although calling it a ban is disingenuous when it's not one) but I don't think exceptions should be made for them either.

I agree with trump on immigration

Pa8301

ELM327 wrote: »

I believe he changed his mind as he has changed his view, and I do not believe the story presented as the reason for change.

On what basis do you believe that he has changed his view? Anyway, what's the difference between changing his mind and changing his view?

everlast75

I cannot believe that there are still people who defend the indefensible.

Trump, a 3rd rate politician and Z list celebrity, spends a weekend golfing instead of preparing to meet one of the most wily Politicians, an Ex-KGB Agent, agrees (if not requests) a 2 hour private meeting, with no note takers, 3 days after multiple indictments were issued against a dozen Russian agents for interfering with the election and then waltzes out of it, makes a balls of the press conference, then makes a balls of the "clarification" of it, and people still say "whataguy!"

Seriously?

He is a coward.
He has no clue what he is doing.
He is in way over his head.
He is a liar, and a bad one at that.
He is not trust worthy.

What is supposition and is far worse.
Eric Trump says they were bank rolled by Russia when no other banks would loan to them.
His golf courses are money pits, which he paid for in cash. It is unclear how he pays for them.
The amount of Russians at his inauguration was substantial.
Plucking Paul Manafort who had significant Russian ties out of the blue to be campaign manager to work for free is suspect at best.
Trump's about turn on previous US policy, to the benefit of Russia.
The proven facts of the Steele Dossier.
A 2 hour meeting with no one else present.
Trump's refusal to substantively confront Putin regarding that interference.
Trump's refusal to be pro-active about sanctions on Russia.
Why is this?

You can call anyone that raises an eyebrow a conspiracy theorist. However, anyone banging on about Pizzagate, missing servers, deep state etc do not have a screed of credibility

Professor Moriarty

ELM327 wrote: »

Repealing obamacare was a right wing decision.
Right wing would generally also favour military expenditure and spending on defense

I believe he changed his mind as he has changed his view, and I do not believe the story presented as the reason for change.

Center left = Voted yes to abortion, yes to SSM, yes to divorce.

I don't care for the military ban on trans people (although calling it a ban is disingenuous when it's not one) but I don't think exceptions should be made for them either.

I agree with trump on immigration

So are you 'left'?

Leroy42

For all the back an forth, I think this closing paragraph from an article in politico.com sums it up.

The article is dealing with the conspiracy trotted out by Trump that the DNC withheld access to their server.

But in Helsinki, that laughter found a new target, as the president missed Mueller’s brilliant pass and turned it into a major American own goal. Donald Trump managed to bend what should have been an embarrassment for Russia and a firing offense for clumsy spies into an embarrassment for the United States and a punch in the gut of America’s intelligence community.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/17/dnc-server-hack-russia-trump-2016-219017

To me this is the real issue. People can argue all day about what he meant, how he said it, when he believed, does he believe. But fundamentally he turned a position whereby he could have put Putin on the spot and placed significant pressure on him, to one where Putin got off without even having to open his mouth.

Igotadose

Democractic Congressional candidates outgaining tGOP by bigger margins than those of 2010, that is, more Democratic candidates are ahead in the last 'wave' election than tGOP are ahead now. Bodes well for flipping the House in November, but there's 4 months to go and all kinds of mischief the POTUS can cause:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/17/midterms-house-republicans-fundraising-728401

Quote:
"Democrats in 56 House districts surpassed Republican incumbents in second-quarter fundraising, according to a POLITICO analysis of the latest Federal Election Commission filings. Sixteen of those House Republicans finished the quarter with less cash in their campaign accounts than Democratic opponents, while no Democratic members lag their Republican challengers in cash. ....Historically, Republicans in 2018 are faring worse than Democrats in 2010, the last wave election, when the GOP picked up more than 60 House seats. In the second quarter of 2010, 44 incumbent Democrats were outraised by Republican challengers, many of whom captured their seats in the fall, according to a POLITICO review of FEC records. "

All good. Flip the House now, impeach in January. And there'll be neverTrumpers in the Senate next year.

Professor Moriarty

Igotadose wrote: »

Democractic Congressional candidates outgaining tGOP by bigger margins than those of 2010, that is, more Democratic candidates are ahead in the last 'wave' election than tGOP are ahead now. Bodes well for flipping the House in November, but there's 4 months to go and all kinds of mischief the POTUS can cause:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/17/midterms-house-republicans-fundraising-728401

Quote:
"Democrats in 56 House districts surpassed Republican incumbents in second-quarter fundraising, according to a POLITICO analysis of the latest Federal Election Commission filings. Sixteen of those House Republicans finished the quarter with less cash in their campaign accounts than Democratic opponents, while no Democratic members lag their Republican challengers in cash. ....Historically, Republicans in 2018 are faring worse than Democrats in 2010, the last wave election, when the GOP picked up more than 60 House seats. In the second quarter of 2010, 44 incumbent Democrats were outraised by Republican challengers, many of whom captured their seats in the fall, according to a POLITICO review of FEC records. "

All good. Flip the House now, impeach in January. And there'll be neverTrumpers in the Senate next year.

Great news. I hope they are voted into obscurity.

amandstu

Leroy42 wrote: »

But fundamentally he turned a position whereby he could have put Putin on the spot and placed significant pressure on him, to one where Putin got off without even having to open his mouth.

My suspicion is that is exactly what he was trying to do and that there are those in his base (and in this part of the world too) who would agree with that.

Farage had to row back from his "admiration of Putin" speech and qualify it by ringfencing the areas in which he found Putin admirable.

I am sure plenty of people would be happy to twin their part of the world with NovoRussia if they could ** (Trump probably feels this way but it is his love that cannot be spoken as there is too much pushback)

Like a child Trump pushes the boundaries and ,with the position he holds he can do a lot of pushing.

** I have no animus against Russia and accept there were badly treated after the fall of the the USSR but authoritarianism is what it is and they have been forced down a path that is inimical to free thinking democracies.

Yes we have to get along with them but not at the cost of our marbles.

relax carry on

And we're back on the room.

"
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
So many people at the higher ends of intelligence loved my press conference performance in Helsinki. Putin and I discussed many important subjects at our earlier meeting. We got along well which truly bothered many haters who wanted to see a boxing match. Big results will come!

10:53 AM - Jul 18, 2018
39.6K
31.9K people are talking about this"

So we are too stupid to comprehend his greatness. Well that's my day ruined.

Edit: Also "haters" for feck sake. Is he a sullen teenager? These tweets are part of the historical record. Future historians will scratch their collective heads in wonder at this insanity.

Captain Obvious

Putins goals becoming more apparent after Trump's interview with Tucker Carlson where they discussed why the US or NATO should come to the defence of Montenegro, a primary target of Russia, in the case of hostilities. Trump describing the tiny nation as both strong and aggressive with the potential to start WW3.

4.58 for the conversation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOWGpEzPZM

Professor Moriarty

amandstu wrote: »

My suspicion is that is exactly what he was trying to do and that there are those in his base (and in this part of the world too) who would agree with that.

Farage had to row back from his "admiration of Putin" speech and qualify it by ringfencing the areas in which he found Putin admirable.

I am sure plenty of people would be happy to twin their part of the world with NovoRussia if they could ** (Trump probably feels this way but it is his love that cannot be spoken as there is too much pushback)

Like a child Trump pushes the boundaries and ,with the position he holds he can do a lot of pushing.

** I have no animus against Russia and accept there were badly treated after the fall of the the USSR but authoritarianism is what it is and they have been forced down a path that is inimical to free thinking democracies.

Yes we have to get along with them but not at the cost of our marbles.

Yet, in a poll conducted since The Donald's meeting with his puppeteer Putin, 71% of GOP voters approve of his dealings with Russia.

Interestingly, unsurprisingly and sadly, 68% of GOP voters do not believe the security services and believe that Russia did not interfere in the election.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yet, in a poll conducted since The Donald's meeting with his puppeteer Putin, 71% of GOP voters approve of his dealings with Russia.

Interestingly, unsurprisingly and sadly, 68% of GOP voters do not believe the security services and believe that Russia did not interfere in the election.

It's the binary view. If Russia interfered, then the result is tainted and Donald didn't win. So it didn't happen. What they seem to be missing is that there's a nice precedent for the rest of the world to have a bite of US elections and try to iinfluence the result. China for example, who would be able to field a far larger hackiing army, would currently, prefer the Democrats in power to put a stop to the trade war that Trump has started.