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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Quin_Dub

This thread is for the continuing discussion of Donald Trumps's presidency in the US and any related matters.

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Ash.J.Williams

I'd say Putin got stuck into trump behind closed doors

Jim Bob Scratcher

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I'd say Putin got stuck into trump behind closed doors

Never had Putin down as a sausage jockey? but then again I guess he like to put it n :pac:

Christy42

Rjd2 wrote: »

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Yeah, he's a real "doormat" to Putin.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/982966315467116544
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/984022625440747520

Have said before I'd like Trump to be impeached, but the absurd over the top hysteria and braindead hot takes not just from the grifters in the resistance was grim. It was a relatively harmless meeting. Interesting and grim to see the push back towards Rand Paul one of the few Republicans who is a genuine non interventionist also while war mongering politicians like John Mc Cain are been lionised by the media.

Check this out for an incredibly **** take.

https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1018923857699332096

That's the standard level of hysteria I have seen today.

I would say chucking little kids into cages also counts as worse than that conference. Given the sheer amount of dumb **** Trump has done I feel like it is worth a little anger that he has been called on precisely none of it by his supporters and very little by congress.

And yeah the conference was pretty bad. It was a message saying the US president will not do anything if Russia keeps messing with US elections (and they will). All Putin will have to do is simply assure his friend he didn't do it. Not like Trump will believe anyone else.

2 Scoops

Christy42 wrote: »

Given the sheer amount of dumb **** Trump has done I feel like it is worth a little anger that he has been called on precisely none of it by his supporters and very little by congress.

You know why that is right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

Legitimate complaints get drowned out by the 2 years of non stop hysteria to the point that the media criticizing him has very little effect.

Christy42

2 Scoops wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

Given the sheer amount of dumb **** Trump has done I feel like it is worth a little anger that he has been called on precisely none of it by his supporters and very little by congress.

You know why that is right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

Legitimate complaints get drowned out by the 2 years of non stop hysteria to the point the media criticizing him has very little effect.

We have had 2 years of legitimate complaints.

It had very little effect in the beginning either. His supporters do not care. They didn't care in the beginning when he talked of grabbing women or that Mexican immigrants were rapists (in spite of stats to the opposite effect for illegal immigrants).

Any other president would have been called on all this stuff. He just does more of it.

Some people have to call him on his bull****. The more he gets away with it the bolder he will become.

See the effect of throwing kids in cages. It was one of the few things Congress called him on (after public pressure) and he had to back down. If they hadn't that situation would have gotten worse. That needs to happen for more of his idiotic plans.

2 Scoops

Christy42 wrote: »

See the effect of throwing kids in cages. It was one of the few things Congress called him on (after public pressure) and he had to back down. If they hadn't that situation would have gotten worse. That needs to happen for more of his idiotic plans.

Where were your complaints about the cages during the previous administration?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-migrant-children-policy-under-trump-obama-2018-6?r=US&IR=T

Midlife

Losing Bigly. That was my favourite headline of yesterday and it came from Fox News of all places.

I think that this went down particularly badly in the US beccause they don't like seeing their president rolling over for anyone, especially Russia. Bad miscalculation by Trump, but I'm sure he can fix it with his base by blaming Obama or something.

2 points though:

1: He has consistently put the interests of an agressive foreign power over his own country's. Still no-one can tell me why? The economy of Russia is the size of Italy's. Why is it in Trump and America's interest to ignore all they've done.

2: The U.S. is for th first time in 70 years, no longer leader of the free world. That's a pretty big change.

Midlife

2 Scoops wrote: »

Where were your complaints about the cages during the previous administration?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-migrant-children-policy-under-trump-obama-2018-6?r=US&IR=T

yeah, YEAH cause OBAMA!!!

2 Scoops

Midlife wrote: »

yeah, YEAH cause OBAMA!!!

Call a spade a spade. I don't agree with separating legitimate families at the border but to try run a narrative that the detention centres under Trump are vastly more monstrous to what they were under previous administrations is disingenuous.

prawnsambo

2 Scoops wrote: »

Where were your complaints about the cages during the previous administration?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-migrant-children-policy-under-trump-obama-2018-6?r=US&IR=T

Unaccompanied minors as opposed to minors accompanied by their parents, separated from them and then thrown in cages. But it's the same because something, something, whataboutery. :rolleyes:

Midlife

2 Scoops wrote: »

Call a spade a spade. I don't agree with separating legitimate families at the border but to try run a narrative that the detention centres under Trump are vastly more monstrous to what they were under previous administrations is disingenuous.

And here was me thinking agent orange was tougher on immigration with his zero tolerance policy. Turn's out there's a photo that shows that the Obama administration was just as tough.

Like the fact that he publicly asked for collusion about the time servers were hacked but the real collusion is the Pakistani guy with the servers.

2 Scoops

prawnsambo wrote: »

Unaccompanied minors as opposed to minors accompanied by their parents, separated from them and then thrown in cages. But it's the same because something, something, whataboutery. :rolleyes:

Needs more verbs like thrown to really sell it.

The irony is the outrage started because people circulated pictures of the cages from the Obama administration through social media and falsely attributed them to the Trump regime. I'm sure your hearts were bleeding back then too, just not quite as hard.

Christy42

2 Scoops wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

Unaccompanied minors as opposed to minors accompanied by their parents, separated from them and then thrown in cages. But it's the same because something, something, whataboutery. :rolleyes:

Needs more verbs like thrown to really sell it.

The irony is the outrage started because people circulated pictures of the cages from the Obama administration through social media and falsely attributed them to the Trump regime. I'm sure your hearts were bleeding back then too, just not quite as hard.

You are not quite getting the two different situations thing. Bit hard to keep families together when they didn't come across the border together.

Yeah one ex official was an idiot and didn't check his sources. That hardly justifies Trump's actions.

prawnsambo

2 Scoops wrote: »

Needs more verbs like thrown to really sell it.

The irony is the outrage started because people circulated pictures of the cages from the Obama administration through social media and falsely attributed them to the Trump regime. I'm sure your hearts were bleeding back then too, just not quite as hard.

There's a hell of a difference between putting unaccompanied teenagers in holding pens, cells, cages (whatever outrages you most) and putting preteens, toddlers and babies in them. When there's absolutely no need to separate them from their parents. There were also plenty of pictures of the current detention centres. It was just handy to have the earlier ones floating around to muddy the waters. Exactly what you're doing now.

2 Scoops

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's a hell of a difference between putting unaccompanied teenagers in holding pens, cells, cages (whatever outrages you most) and putting preteens, toddlers and babies in them. When there's absolutely no need to separate them from their parents. There were also plenty of pictures of the current detention centres. It was just handy to have the earlier ones floating around to muddy the waters. Exactly what you're doing now.

If you read a few posts up you'll see I said they shouldn't be separated.

Christy's original post mentioned the cages, I just wanted to clear up the fact that they did, indeed exist before Trump took office.

prawnsambo

2 Scoops wrote: »

If you read a few posts up you'll see I said they shouldn't be separated.

Christy's original post mentioned the cages, I just wanted to clear up the fact that they did, indeed exist before Trump took office.

Yes, they did. Out of necessity. You can't pick up children crossing the border on their own and just dump them in the same adult detention centres the adults who are picked up are placed in. So yes, it was not ideal. But it's not correct to create an equivalence with what's been happening recently.
The cages aren't the issue anyway. It's the fact that multiple young and very young kids were being placed in them unnecessarily. Never mind the fact that a teenager who's made the journey on their own, is far better equipped to deal with such a situation.

batgoat

Think the most shocking thing about the press conference is Trump and Putin engaged in attacks on US private citizens. Whatever about Trump going on about "crooked Hilary" in domestic speeches, this one was a new low. Plus a dogwhistle for the nazis and conspiracy theories from Putin about George Soros..

Christy42

2 Scoops wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's a hell of a difference between putting unaccompanied teenagers in holding pens, cells, cages (whatever outrages you most) and putting preteens, toddlers and babies in them. When there's absolutely no need to separate them from their parents. There were also plenty of pictures of the current detention centres. It was just handy to have the earlier ones floating around to muddy the waters. Exactly what you're doing now.

If you read a few posts up you'll see I said they shouldn't be separated.

Christy's original post mentioned the cages, I just wanted to clear up the fact that they did, indeed exist before Trump took office.

You also claimed that Trump's actions were not more monstrous than previous regimes. It absolutely was far worse.

Yeah I mentioned cages. I was referring to the incident for the purposes of talking about the reaction of other politicians. I was not giving a blow by blow account on why it was different to previous administrations or going through the main reason s why it was wrong.

And no you absolutely created an equivalence by arguing people should have been annoyed at both to a similar extent. Pointing out the cages existed could have been done by simply stating it and that you know the situations were not the same.

2 Scoops

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes, they did. Out of necessity. You can't pick up children crossing the border on their own and just dump them in the same adult detention centres the adults who are picked up are placed in. So yes, it was not ideal. But it's not correct to create an equivalence with what's been happening recently.
The cages aren't the issue anyway. It's the fact that multiple young and very young kids were being placed in them unnecessarily. Never mind the fact that a teenager who's made the journey on their own, is far better equipped to deal with such a situation.

It's not a black and white issue, child trafficking, mules and people pretending to be family to seek illegitimate asylum are real issues at the border. They weren't doing it to intentionally break up families and upset people, quite the contrary. It could have been handled better, that's the best you'll get from me.

prawnsambo

2 Scoops wrote: »

It's not a black and white issue, child trafficking, mules and people pretending to be family to seek illegitimate asylum are real issues at the border. They weren't doing it to intentionally break up families and upset people, quite the contrary. It could have been handled better, that's the best you'll get from me.

No. Taking the "kill them all, God will know his own" approach is not defensible in any way, shape or form. It's a morally bankrupt defence and has no place in a civilised society.

The direct answer to this, is that they have been detained. They are in custody. There is no danger to the rule of law inherent in that situation. And the practice of separating kids from their families does not go one step towards identifying such issues. If they existed in any kind of appreciable numbers in the first place.

ELM327

prawnsambo wrote: »

No. Taking the "kill them all, God will know his own" approach is not defensible in any way, shape or form. It's a morally bankrupt defence and has no place in a civilised society.

The direct answer to this, is that they have been detained. They are in custody. There is no danger to the rule of law inherent in that situation. And the practice of separating kids from their families does not go one step towards identifying such issues. If they existed in any kind of appreciable numbers in the first place.

So what do you suggest... open door immigration?
The "merkel" solution? Because that worked soooo well in Europe

Leroy42

So, have those who are calling the whole response as hysterical and over the top been able to account for his stated position that Trump has the same level of faith in his CIA director (which he picked) as he does with a guy he met 3 hours ago?

And how can they be on here congratulating Trump on his performance at NATO, calling out Germany etc and yet also seem to agree that the way to deal with Russia is to bend over backwards.

It is clear that it is not America First, but Trump first, second and last. Whether you believe that Obama was a terrible POTUS, whether HC should be in jail, whether the DNC are a pack of idiots and the left is a threat to the US, we have the security services, the house and Senate and an independent investigation (headed by a republican) that have concluded that Russia attempt to interfere with the election. And Trump has nothing to say about it.

Either he misspoke (he hasn't retracted), he believes what he says or he was lying.

Which one was it?

Midlife

ELM327 wrote: »

So what do you suggest... open door immigration?
The "merkel" solution? Because that worked soooo well in Europe

Ha ha. Reads dodgy short reply with suspect undertones.

**checks post history**

instantly gets hits about how Nigerian parents can't have Irish children.

Wouldn't happen to have any issues with race, would you? How was Jordan Henderson theother night?

everlast75

ELM327 wrote: »

So what do you suggest... open door immigration?
The "merkel" solution? Because that worked soooo well in Europe

There was statistically and factually better results in terms of absenteeism and absconding and cost, with the 2x previous administration approaches.

DJT came in and decided, aided and abetted by Sessions and Miller to implement "zero tolerance" interpretation of the law which effectively meant you went to jail for a misdemenor.

But the incompetence made a bad situation worse, as they began to lose the kids and then when the Courts ordered that the kids be reunited the admin failed to do so.

But it doesn't matter to Trump supporters and or defenders. Essentially they bought into a pyramid scheme. They were warned by friends or family that it was a hoax, but they are hanging in there in the hope that it will work out, that he wants what they want, that he will act in their interests... but sooner or later, the realisation will dawn on them - they were had, pure and simple.

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

So what do you suggest... open door immigration?
The "merkel" solution? Because that worked soooo well in Europe

What has it done so wrong in Europe? You know, actual specifics.

And compare that to the current state of play in the US, you know with all the school shootings, national terorrists being pardoned by POTUS.

ELM327

Midlife wrote: »

Ha ha. Read's dodgy short reply with suspect undertones.

**checks post history**

instantly gets hits about how Nigerian parents can't have Irish children.

Wouldn't happen to have any issues with race, would you? How was Jordan Henderson theother night?

Factually they cannot, this is not After Hours, and this is not Soccer, so please stick to the issues at hand thanks.
Now, after all your warbling, have you a point?

everlast75 wrote: »

There was statistically and factually better results in terms of absenteeism and absconding and cost, with the 2x previous administration approaches.

DJT came in and decided, aided and abetted by Sessions and Miller to implement "zero tolerance" interpretation of the law which effectively meant you went to jail for a misdemenor.

But the incompetence made a bad situation worse, as they began to lose the kids and then when the Courts ordered that the kids be reunited the admin failed to do so.

But it doesn't matter to Trump supporters and or defenders. Essentially they bought into a pyramid scheme. They were warned by friends or family that it was a hoax, but they are hanging in there in the hope that it will work out, that he wants what they want, that he will act in their interests... but sooner or later, the realisation will dawn on them - they were had, pure and simple.

Well that's a myriad of Trump hate and millennial tears.
You should go to jail for illegally claiming asylum, for faking being a family, for falsifying information to fraudulently enter a country.

The only thing that they could do differently is detain the families together, but then the liberals would probably complain that children were detained at all. You can't win.
How you you deter people from trying to enter the country illegally without there being some form of deterrent? If it's not detaining and treating their crime as a crime, then what do you suggest? Bear in mind that "open borders" is not a realistic solution.

I think the liberal media have gotten used to the oft mentioned rhetoric that Trump supporters are inbred hicks, but there are a lot of well off conservative businessmen too. Heck even Bill Belichick is a Trump supporter, one of the greatest football brains of our time.

ELM327

Leroy42 wrote: »

What has it done so wrong in Europe? You know, actual specifics.

And compare that to the current state of play in the US, you know with all the school shootings, national terorrists being pardoned by POTUS.

Ah... distract with school shootings. Ok. Gotcha.

As for what it's done wrong in Europe:
https://www.dw.com/en/german-study-links-increased-crime-rate-to-migrant-arrivals/a-42006484

prawnsambo

ELM327 wrote: »

Well that's a myriad of Trump hate and millennial tears.
You should go to jail for illegally claiming asylum, for faking being a family, for falsifying information to fraudulently enter a country.

So many factual errors here, it's hard to know where to start.

It is entirely legal to enter another country, ANYwhere. It is NOT a crime. You may not be permitted to stay, but there's a procedure to work that out. And finally, where are all the court hearings for all these family fakers? I presume you're a legislator based on all these laws that you just made up. :rolleyes:

ELM327 wrote: »

The only thing that they could do differently is detain the families together, but then the liberals would probably complain that children were detained at all. You can't win.
How you you deter people from trying to enter the country illegally without there being some form of deterrent? If it's not detaining and treating their crime as a crime, then what do you suggest? Bear in mind that "open borders" is not a realistic solution.

Open borders is not the actual other choice here.

ELM327 wrote: »

I think the liberal media have gotten used to the oft mentioned rhetoric that Trump supporters are inbred hicks, but there are a lot of well off conservative businessmen too. Heck even Bill Belichick is a Trump supporter, one of the greatest football brains of our time.

Does that actually mean something? Am I supposed to suspend my critical faculties on the basis of someone else's lack of them?

pixelburp

ELM327 wrote: »

[...]
The only thing that they could do differently is detain the families together, but then the liberals would probably complain that children were detained at all. You can't win.
How you you deter people from trying to enter the country illegally without there being some form of deterrent? If it's not detaining and treating their crime as a crime, then what do you suggest? Bear in mind that "open borders" is not a realistic solution.

well if you have to separate children, keeping records might be a start: but given it was revealed that much of the documentation linking the children with their accompanying adults was either lost or destroyed, it doesn't speak to a policy that even cares about notions towards compassion.

It's all well and good standing on a soapbox about illegality and the horrors of migration, but the reality is to talk about upwards of 3000 children with little to no paperwork, and 100 under 5s. You can waffle all you want about terrorists, or welfare sponges or whatever it is you think is so awful, but discarding children in cages, with no paperwork,... well I'm not sure I'd call it evil - but it is lazily callous. Incompetence that has been a hallmark of this administration - and demonstrable in its inability to organise a p*ssup ina brewery

everlast75

ELM327 wrote: »

Factually they cannot, this is not After Hours, and this is not Soccer, so please stick to the issues at hand thanks.
Now, after all your warbling, have you a point?

Well that's a myriad of Trump hate and millennial tears.
You should go to jail for illegally claiming asylum, for faking being a family, for falsifying information to fraudulently enter a country.

The only thing that they could do differently is detain the families together, but then the liberals would probably complain that children were detained at all. You can't win.
How you you deter people from trying to enter the country illegally without there being some form of deterrent? If it's not detaining and treating their crime as a crime, then what do you suggest? Bear in mind that "open borders" is not a realistic solution.

I think the liberal media have gotten used to the oft mentioned rhetoric that Trump supporters are inbred hicks, but there are a lot of well off conservative businessmen too. Heck even Bill Belichick is a Trump supporter, one of the greatest football brains of our time.

Millennial tears? Lol. Aren't you the hard man? I'd bet your the same as Trump. All mouth and no trousers.

You seem to confuse compassion for weakness.

I'd bet I'm older (and apparently a lot wiser) than you too.

That said, i sincerely hope for your sake, that the fate of your family is never placed in the hands of someone who has the same ethical disfunction that you seem to have.