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Can an Estate Agent Not Disclose Fault?

CardinalJ

Hi,

We were looking at a house to buy recently that fits almost exactly what we are looking for. When I was researching it, I saw it had sold in January of this year, and went back on the market in May/June. Odd.

I checked the deeds and it was purchased in Jan with a Mortgage, so it had been given a good going over at the point of sale.

We went to view it and I asked the Auctioneer who said they buyer had been offered a job abroad he couldnt refuse and had asked him to sell it.

In any event, by the time we decided to bid the current bid was right at our limit and it we didn't go any further. I followed up out of interest and it had gone sale agreed and was off the market.

It's now back on the market again, with the current bid below the original asking price. So for what ever reason the sale has fallen through.

Now obviously we are interested in the house, but it's concerning that a buyer would sell almost straight away and that new buyers would pull out.

There were at least two parties willing to bid on the second sale, but based on the current lower bid, I think both have probably pulled out.

My main concern is that structurally something could be wrong which was discovered by the first buyer, who is now trying to shift it, and it may have been discovered by the potential second buyer etc.

So in short, can an estate agent knowingly sell a house with a very significant defect without disclosing it?

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handlemaster

Surveyor would tell you. Obviously no one on here can say.

Victor

CardinalJ wrote: »

So in short, can an estate agent knowingly sell a house with a very significant defect without disclosing it?

Yes. The agent's job is to sell the property, not to help you, not to advise you, not to be your friend - treat them accordingly.

They can say anything they want, but they can't lie. The only thing you can bind the vendor to is the contract. If something is silent in the contract, you are buying as-is.

Hire a good conveyancing solicitor and a building surveyor and if you have structural concerns, a structural engineer.

All existing buildings will have issues at some level. Expect to have to spend some money on the building.

CardinalJ

handlemaster wrote: »

Surveyor would tell you. Obviously no one on here can say.

I get that, but what I'm asking is can an estate agent in theory sell a house without disclosing a significant fault?

With the house I'm talking about, it already sold once In January where a surveyor would have looked at it, so if there is something hypothetically wrong with it, it was already missed once.

godtabh

CardinalJ wrote: »

I get that, but what I'm asking is can an estate agent in theory sell a house without disclosing a significant fault?

With the house I'm talking about, it already sold once In January where a surveyor would have looked at it, so if there is something hypothetically wrong with it, it was already missed once.

How would the estate agent know? They are only selling the house.

CardinalJ

Victor wrote: »

Yes. The agent's job is to sell the property, not to help you, not to advise you, not to be your friend - treat them accordingly.

They can say anything they want, but they can't lie. The only thing you can bind the vendor to is the contract. If something is silent in the contract, you are buying as-is.

Hire a good conveyancing solicitor and a building surveyor and if you have structural concerns, a structural engineer.

All existing buildings will have issues at some level. Expect to have to spend some money on the building.

Thanks, I'd do all of that in terms of hiring relevant experts. My concern was really about the potential waste of money if the EA is just hiding a huge defect.

CardinalJ

godtabh wrote: »

How would the estate agent know? They are only selling the house.

It's his second time selling the same house in a year, so I'd expect him to know a little more than average. Plus he knows that people will find it strange that it's up for sale again and had an answer ready.

I'm just being sceptical out of fear of landing myself with a mortgage on a dud.

Try_harder

If your bid is accepted- it goes sale agreed, you give the EA a refundable deposit. Then get a surveyor in. Any faults you think make the house uneconomical to buy- decline and get your deposit returned

CeilingFly

Why not ask?

Tell him that you are concerned about the quick resale and it being sale agreed and then back on the market and ask if there's any reason for it and if any structural issues were raised.

Juwwi

If you were around the house and saw one of the neighbours you could ask them if they have heard anything .

April 73

Why not ask if the seller will provide the survey he had done on the house before he purchased it?
Although I think you may be overthinking it - maybe the buyer really does have a job abroad and maybe the house sale just fell through - it happens regularly.

godtabh

CardinalJ wrote: »

It's his second time selling the same house in a year, so I'd expect him to know a little more than average. Plus he knows that people will find it strange that it's up for sale again and had an answer ready.

I'm just being sceptical out of fear of landing myself with a mortgage on a dud.

That’s why you get your survey done

testicles

This post has been deleted.

davo10

To answer the ops question, the EA does not have to disclose a fault, this is not a typical consumer purchase, you have the opportunity to pay a professional surveyor to check the property before you buy. The EA cannot however give you information he/she knows to be false nor misrepresent the condition of the property by giving false information.

fishy_fishy

davo10 wrote: »

To answer the ops question, the EA does not have to disclose a fault, this is not a typical consumer purchase, you have the opportunity to pay a professional surveyor to check the property before you buy. The EA cannot however give you information he/she knows to be false nor misrepresent the condition of the property by giving false information.

This.

If you outright ask "are you aware of any actual or suspected structural fault, flooding, drainage, electrical, neighbour or other issue with the property that's caused a buyer to sell immediately and the next buyer to pull out?" they can't just lie to you to get you to buy it.

Victor

April 73 wrote: »

Why not ask if the seller will provide the survey he had done on the house before he purchased it?

There would be copyright issues.

M.Cribben

I would give them the benefit of the doubt regarding their move abroad story. If there is a structural defect that's significant enough to warrant a sale then it will be obvious to any half decent surveyor. I know it's not the case here but I've seen properties on sale 3 months after the sold date on property price register, but it's usually professional renovation companies flipping them quickly. For other cases, (why I'm saying give benefit of the doubt so long as property is structurally sound) unexpected things happen in life. People lose their jobs, marriages breakup, unplanned pregnancies, deaths in family, etc. There's a multitude of reasons why and when people sell properties.

You have probably done this already but research the housing estate or apartment complex on the internet. Find out when it was built, who the developer was, if they're still building now, and if there's any history of flooding or fire hazard issues. Even antisocial behavior in the area will usually be obvious from residents groups facebook pages or archived news articles.

Fol20

Situations like this can happy. I know one house that was resold 3 months after it was bought with 25k extra. The agent is not your friend. His job is to sell it,nothing more.the onus is on you to make sure it’s ok.for example a tiny room is cozy. A damp room has potential.id say about 50pc of sales can fall through so I wouldn’t be worried about that either. The second bidder might have found something else in the mean time. Best thing to do is ask a friend if he’s a builder to take a look or get a Surveyer.

April 73

Victor wrote: »

There would be copyright issues.

No, there wouldn’t. The original buyer paid for the survey. Anybody can read it.

davo10

April 73 wrote: »

No, there wouldn’t. The original buyer paid for the survey. Anybody can read it.

Report provided for their exclusive use. For instance, if the house was bought by the op based on the original buyers report and this was found to be defective, the surveyor would rightly accept no liability as the report was used by a third who was not part of the contract. Most survey reports contain a clause stating it is for the person who commissioned it exclusively and it is not to be copied nor shared.

Besides which, defects may have come to light after the last purchase and why would the seller share it, it may reduce the chance of the property selling.

Try_harder

You are making a large investment- why not get a survey done?

knipex

CardinalJ wrote: »

I checked the deeds and it was purchased in Jan with a Mortgage, so it had been given a good going over at the point of sale.

That's a big assumption to make... And based on my experience a poor one.

The banks engineers surveyed the house. My engineers surveyed the house and 10 years and 90k later I still have 2 "hidden" issues to resolve..

April 73

davo10 wrote: »

Report provided for their exclusive use. For instance, if the house was bought by the op based on the original buyers report and this was found to be defective, the surveyor would rightly accept no liability as the report was used by a third who was not part of the contract. Most survey reports contain a clause stating it is for the person who commissioned it exclusively and it is not to be copied nor shared.

Besides which, defects may have come to light after the last purchase.

Of course that’s all true. The OP would have no come back on the surveyor.
But what would stop the seller letting the OP read the report for some reassurance? Nothing. The OP is worried that something untoward is going on. The seller could help by letting him see the survey from six months ago.
The OP would still need to get his own survey done if he decides to purchase.

Don’t overthink my suggestion. I did say “read the report” - not that reading it would hold the surveyor accountable to the OP or that nothing had changed in six months.

Cash_Q

CardinalJ wrote:

With the house I'm talking about, it already sold once In January where a surveyor would have looked at it, so if there is something hypothetically wrong with it, it was already missed once.

Do you know for a fact that a surveyor looked at it when it last sold? Not everyone gets a survey. The banks send in someone to value the property and carry out a visual inspection, not a survey. It's up to the buyer whether they want a survey or not...some people choose not to.

godtabh

April 73 wrote: »

No, there wouldn’t. The original buyer paid for the survey. Anybody can read it.

He paid for it. Why would he give it away for free?

I’d also suggest it would only be fit for purpose for the original purchase. It’s a snap shot of the day of the survey. Things may or may not have been fixed. Things may or may not have gotten worse or new items picked up

CPTM

godtabh wrote: »

He paid for it. Why would he give it away for free?

I’d also suggest it would only be fit for purpose for the original purchase. It’s a snap shot of the day of the survey. Things may or may not have been fixed. Things may or may not have gotten worse or new items picked up

Because he wants to sell the house and doesn't want a new surveyor finding something the first surveyor didn't.

Your second point stands though. Buying a second hand house without your own independent survey is madness. One of those painful costs which you just need to write off.

You can't rely on the Estate Agent OP. If the seller moved in and found issues, I don't know why he would tell the Estate Agent when reselling? Even if there was something wrong with the house, he'd probably just tell the Estate Agent that he was moving abroad for a job anyways. Use your gut instinct. Check if any of the neighbours' houses have been resold recently, ask the locals if there are any known issues. I was going to buy an apartment in Store St 4 years ago. Penthouse at the top of a block for 138k. I went by myself 5 or 6 times and on the last occasion I bumped into the security man of the building who told me not to buy. He brought me through some of the halls and showed me faint drug stains on the carpets, a few of which were right outside my potential front door.

Every place will have its ups and downs but if you have a bad feeling, I would trust your gut... and your own surveyor!

1641

From the PRSA Guide (http://psr.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/SJRS-7T9JNU15122822-en/$File/aguideforusersofpsps.pdf) :

In dealing with any buyer the Code requires that the Auctioneer/Estate Agent must
provide the following information to the buyer, where supplied to him by the seller:
• The terms of sale, detailing precisely what is being offered for sale
including, but not limited to, the area of the property and the site;
• Architects’ plans or scale drawings and any supplementary plans
including electrical and plumbing plans;
• Details of known structural alterations;
• Details of insurance claims on the property, made by the seller, arising
out of structural damage;
• Copies of guarantees/warranties relating to the property being sold;
• Details of any protected building status;
• Details of the property’s energy rating where appropriate.
In this regard a buyer should be aware that the seller is usually under no
obligation to disclose defects either to the Auctioneer/Estate Agent or the buyer.

Supercell

There may be nothing wrong with the house..but what about neighbors/area/feral kids etc, may not be the house itself that had an issue (if there is one).

M.Cribben

Supercell wrote: »

There may be nothing wrong with the house..but what about neighbors/area/feral kids etc, may not be the house itself that had an issue (if there is one).

This is a good point OP. Go for a walk in the area in the evening / night. Now is the perfect time of year because teenagers are off school and the brighter evenings mean any trouble or antisocial behavior is more obvious. If you're uncomfortable walking around an area at 10pm - 11pm then you're not going to enjoy living there. Do this every night for a full week and you'll get a good feel for the area.

the_syco

CardinalJ wrote: »

We went to view it and I asked the Auctioneer who said they buyer had been offered a job abroad he couldnt refuse and had asked him to sell it.

Ask the neighbours where the person went. This will give you two parts of information; why the seller left, and what sort of person the neighbour is.

CardinalJ wrote: »

So in short, can an estate agent knowingly sell a house with a very significant defect without disclosing it?

The EA works for the seller, not the buyer.

Victor

the_syco wrote: »

The EA works for the seller, not the vendor.

The seller is the vendor.