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Wedding pic from balcony

tcooley

Hi there,

A mate asked me to take a photo for his upcoming wedding of all the crowd from the balcony. I have a Canon 1300 EOS with WiFi so he needs me to send it on straight away to the printers for use later on.

Now I am not a professional photographer, do it as a hobby and his photographer for the day won't send it on to printers as he would be wasting time he reckons.

I have 2 lenses for my camera,18‑55mm canon lens and a CANON EF 50 mm f/1.4 USM Standard Prime Lens.

Would either of these be good enough for the shot? Or should I let the photographer take it with my camera and his specialist lens?

Cheers for any info.

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magicbastarder

your 50mm is going to be too long for that shot, so your 18-55mm would be the option open to you (i can't say what the photographer would agree to do).
you would be best stopping down to f8 or smaller to ensure sharpness, but i'm not sure if you're talking about a balcony in a church, so lighting might be subdued?
any chance you could visit the venue to do a test shot?

tcooley

Yes it is in the church so lighting could be an issue. TBH I would prefer the photographer to do it on mine with one of his better lenses. I am not great with lighting etc and maybe my Canon not strong enough either. Thanks for the tip re F Stop, had not thought of that.

Bacchus

What ^ said.

100% do not use the 50mm. It's too long, especially on a crop sensor. Use the 18mm end of your 18-55mm.

I don't know the Canon systems but I'd hazard a guess the pro tog has a FX body and lens, and therefore won't be compatible with your body (or at least result in some distortions or weird cropping).

If the photo is outside, yup, set it to f8 and take a couple of test snaps while people are gathering. Check the exposure of those shots and adjust. Repeat until happy with result. Shout down to everyone to smile / say cheers to the couple / jump / whatever, and snap away.

If you're talking about a wide shot of the ceremony from the balcony inside the church. Open up the aperture to get the most out the available light. Get centered with the aisle/couple and focus on the couple themselves.

I'd quietly catch the photographer for a second if you can to explain the bride's request just as a courtesy so he/she knows the story. This is particularly so if it's happening outside at the venue, as he/she may have a schedule they're keeping and it could be disruptive. Most likely they'll help you on crowd management and will probably be up there with you taking a few shots themselves.

EDIT: Ah, didn't notice this update as I was typing my reply. Ignore the bits about shooting outside so

tcooley

Bacchus and Magicbastarder, thank you for reply.

Yes it will be in a balcony in the church. Not sure how big it is. It is near Tralee and I'm in Galway.

I have no flash gun either, only got all the gear 2 yrs ago and I do landscapes and family photos.

He just wants this photo sent on quick so he can have it in A3 format for the reception.

Would definitely be easier for photographer to take it on mine if he was used to Canon. I'm still not great with Aperture and lighting etc,

Bacchus

tcooley wrote: »

Yes it is in the church so lighting could be an issue. TBH I would prefer the photographer to do it on mine with one of his better lenses. I am not great with lighting etc and maybe my Canon not strong enough either. Thanks for the tip re F Stop, had not thought of that.

Are you familiar with the church? Are their many windows? Clear or tinted? At least with this fine weather, you have a decent shot at having a bright church... the flip is though that you may end up with a church full of contrasting light levels between areas in full sun and those in shade. That's going to be very difficult to deal with and if you're already not comfortable with lighting, I would be wary of what expectations your mate has.

Aside from trying to get out to do a few test shots (at the same time of day as the ceremony), I'm not sure what else to recommend except maybe set up camp in the balcony for the duration of the ceremony and keep an eye on the light until you get a shot you're happy with.

magicbastarder

Bacchus wrote: »

If you're talking about a wide shot of the ceremony from the balcony inside the church. Open up the aperture to get the most out the available light. Get centered with the aisle/couple and focus on the couple themselves.

yeah, i'm not sure what the low light performance of the camera mentioned would be, so it's possible that shooting at 1600 and f8 might not be too grainy - but that's something it might be possible to test in a local church where lighting levels might be similar.

Bacchus

tcooley wrote: »

Bacchus and Magicbastarder, thank you for reply.

Yes it will be in a balcony in the church. Not sure how big it is. It is near Tralee and I'm in Galway.

Feck... can you google images of the church? Hopefully you'll get a sense of the windows and better still, a picture of the inside.

tcooley wrote: »

I have no flash gun either, only got all the gear 2 yrs ago and I do landscapes and family photos.

Most likely would not have been allowed use a flash anyway.

tcooley wrote: »

He just wants this photo sent on quick so he can have it in A3 format for the reception.

Would definitely be easier for photographer to take it on mine if he was used to Canon. I'm still not great with Aperture and lighting etc,

I think the main thing to remember here is 1) you're doing this as a freebie for a mate, 2) it's not the type of photography you do. Obviously you want to try do a good job but don't put too much pressure on yourself. Expectation management is the name of the game here.

Try have that chat with the photographer if you can when he/she first arrives at the church. They're probably going to be mad busy (bride is on the way) but maybe just mention that if he/she is taking a photo from up on the balcony, could they take a quick photo on yours too (maybe ask the bride/groom to flag this with the photographer in advance to save explaining the situation). Depends on the person then if they agree or not. If they do, you just camp up in the balcony, ready for when they pop up.

Bacchus

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, i'm not sure what the low light performance of the camera mentioned would be, so it's possible that shooting at 1600 and f8 might not be too grainy - but that's something it might be possible to test in a local church where lighting levels might be similar.

Inside the church... well it really depends on how much light you have... but i doubt you're going to get away with f8. I'd be opening that lens up as wide as it can go. Also, a grainy image is better than a blurry image. Go up to 3200, or higher if needed. It's a pity really that they want an A3 printout of it as it will show up the grain more... I'd still take grain over a shake any day. Aim for around 1/80sec shutter speed or faster. If you can rest it on the banister, you can drop it down maybe to 1/60sec but if people are moving around you might get a bit of motion blur. Take lots of photos.... go through them... zoom in on ones you think might be good and look for signs of blur or camera shake. Photos can look good on a 2 inch screen but won't hold up to an A3 print, so zoom in and have a closer look.

awec

If he shoots wide open is he going to get all the group in focus?

Any chance you could bring a laptop to do some quick processing before you send it? You might be able to reduce some of the noise in Lightroom?

Bacchus

awec wrote: »

If he shoots wide open is he going to get all the group in focus?

No he won't. Hence I said to focus on the couple so at least they are in focus. You're going to be getting the back of everyone's heads anyway (TBH, I personally don't see the appeal of having such a shot printed up large for the evening). Also, assuming most people are packed up towards the front of the church, and he is way down the back, even at f3.5 (wide open for that lens), they should all be reasonably in focus.

If the light permits, sure close down that aperture but without knowing the light situation in the church, I'm providing advice for low light here.

Metric Tensor

I'm guess what the couple mean to do is have everyone facing the balcony for a group shot directly after the ceremony. They then want to print this and have the group shot there for everyone to examine at the reception.

awec

Bacchus wrote: »

No he won't. Hence I said to focus on the couple so at least they are in focus. You're going to be getting the back of everyone's heads anyway (TBH, I personally don't see the appeal of having such a shot printed up large for the evening). Also, assuming most people are packed up towards the front of the church, and he is way down the back, even at f3.5 (wide open for that lens), they should all be reasonably in focus.

If the light permits, sure close down that aperture but without knowing the light situation in the church, I'm providing advice for low light here.

Ah, I thought the OP meant the couple wanted everyone in the church facing the camera and looking up in a big group posed photo.

I’m guessing they want to print it and have everyone sign it or something as a keepsake. In which case they probably expect everyone in focus and identifiable, which seems unrealistic.

Effects

You need a tripod, don't just rest it on the balcony edge. Don't shoot as slow as 1/60, you'll need at least 1/100.

I think it might be a good idea to get the main photographer to shoot it but use your card so you can then process and upload it and he won't be wasting his time.
He might not agree to it though.

I've shot similar before but I was able to use 2 x 1200w flashes, either side of the balcony. Churches are usually pretty dark and the artificial lighting is not very nice either.

Effects

awec wrote: »

Ah, I thought the OP meant the couple wanted everyone in the church facing the camera and looking up in a big group posed photo.

That is what the OP wants. Who would want pictures of everyone from behind?

Effects

Bacchus wrote: »

I don't know the Canon systems but I'd hazard a guess the pro tog has a FX body and lens, and therefore won't be compatible with your body (or at least result in some distortions or weird cropping).

Full frame lenses work fine on cropped bodies and are completely compatible.

Bacchus

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I'm guess what the couple mean to do is have everyone facing the balcony for a group shot directly after the ceremony. They then want to print this and have the group shot there for everyone to examine at the reception.

awec wrote: »

Ah, I thought the OP meant the couple wanted everyone in the church facing the camera and looking up in a big group posed photo.

Effects wrote: »

That is what the OP wants. Who would want pictures of everyone from behind?

Perhaps you're right, hadn't considered that. OP hasn't specified if that's the case or not, but it could well be what he's looking for. In which case, everyone's going to be bunched up together, at a distance from the camera so going open to f3.5 isn't going to be hugely detrimental.

Really, all we can give is advice. It all depends on the light on the day.

Effects wrote: »

Full frame lenses work fine on cropped bodies and are completely compatible.

Wasn't sure if it was the case on Canon that their FF lens were compatible with DX bodies. You're still going to get the crop factor though due to the sensor. Also, you will probably get some aberration or distortion because you're using a lens designed for a different size sensor (can't find good link to support this but it was explained to me before). Worth a shot though if the pro tog is happy to help.

awec

Bacchus wrote: »

Perhaps you're right, hadn't considered that. OP hasn't specified if that's the case or not, but it could well be what he's looking for. In which case, everyone's going to be bunched up together, at a distance from the camera so going open to f3.5 isn't going to be hugely detrimental.

Really, all we can give is advice. It all depends on the light on the day.

Wasn't sure if it was the case on Canon that their FF lens were compatible with DX bodies. You're still going to get the crop factor though due to the sensor. Also, you will probably get some aberration or distortion because you're using a lens designed for a different size sensor (can't find good link to support this but it was explained to me before). Worth a shot though if the pro tog is happy to help.

Yep, hard to say.

But my guess is the picture isn’t going to come out like the couple expect.

fixXxer

Effects wrote: »

Full frame lenses work fine on cropped bodies and are completely compatible.

Don't you have to multiply the focal length by 1.5 though?

Bacchus

Effects wrote: »

You need a tripod, don't just rest it on the balcony edge. Don't shoot as slow as 1/60, you'll need at least 1/100.

18mm on a crop sensor, with stationary subjects 20-30 feet away and camera resting on solid beam... 1/60 could be sufficient. Up to the OP to make that call on the day. If it's bad light, he can only open up to f3.5, and his max ISO is 3200... what else can he do but drop the shutter speed. Yes, I agree with you, get up over 1/80 or 1/100 if you can, but 1/60 would be the low bar I'd set in case he's tempted to drop lower on the day. It's no good saying shoot at least 1/100 if he ends up with a picture in darkness.

A laptop on standby would be good though to try and recover the image a bit if you want to shoot it a stop or two dark and bring it back up again. I'm not sure how forgiving the files might be out of that sensor though. Shoot RAW if you're comfortable editing those.

What's wrong with a balcony edge btw? I don't think the OP has a tripod (didn't list it in his itinerary, and say he doesn't shoot in low light) so it's a bit of an expense for a freebie one off picture.

Bacchus

awec wrote: »

But my guess is the picture isn’t going to come out like the couple expect.

This.

Two words OP. Expectation. Management.

Take the pressure off yourself because if the church is dark and the light fails you... that is going to be a tough picture to deliver. It could very easily (through no fault of your own) end up grainy, dark, and soft... and the colour will be off too as a result of pushing the sensor to the limits.

awec

If you could somehow manage to move this photo outdoors your job would be infinitely easier.

I know the couple probably want the church as the scene but if you explain the difficulties and there was somewhere that suited outdoors you’d get a much better shot for them.

magicbastarder

as above, i don't think you'd want to send a photo like that off to a printer without working on it a bit first. churches are *not* designed to suit photographers, and the lighting can be very tricky - very localised, with differing colour temperatures (daylight mixing with artificial sources) so the photo could take a bit of processing. would be a bit of pressure you may not want on the day.

Cameraman

I've done this shot a number of times - and it's very variable depending on the church (light/dark inside, window layout) and the light on the day (and equipment capabilities, of course). Some general tips :

(1) Get the priest or someone to announce you will be doing this and ask people to face back towards the balcony. Check from the balcony what your field of view is - and guide people into those positions. Have the groomsmen assist in getting people into position quickly (prime them about this beforehand). Keep B&G at the front of the crowd or in a prominent position.

(2) You need to know what ISO you can get away with on your camera and still get a decent shot. Depending on this you may get away with a natural light exposure. Otherwise use flash (bounced, if possible, otherwise direct - you're not looking for artistic lighting here - just a good sharp, well-exposed image).
Bounced flash may help a lot anyway, even if it's bright.

(3) Bearing the above in mind, use the smallest aperture you can get away with - F8/F11 would be good. Rule of thumb is to focus 1/3 way into the group for max sharpness throughout. If you have to use a wide aperture, focus on the B&G instead.

Alternatively : do it outside or/ try asking the pro photographer again (but remember there is a huge amount of time pressure on them on a wedding day)

Alanstrainor

Cameraman wrote: »

I've done this shot a number of times - and it's very variable depending on the church (light/dark inside, window layout) and the light on the day (and equipment capabilities, of course). Some general tips :

(1) Get the priest or someone to announce you will be doing this and ask people to face back towards the balcony. Check from the balcony what your field of view is - and guide people into those positions. Have the groomsmen assist in getting people into position quickly (prime them about this beforehand). Keep B&G at the front of the crowd or in a prominent position.

(2) You need to know what ISO you can get away with on your camera and still get a decent shot. Depending on this you may get away with a natural light exposure. Otherwise use flash (bounced, if possible, otherwise direct - you're not looking for artistic lighting here - just a good sharp, well-exposed image).
Bounced flash may help a lot anyway, even if it's bright.

(3) Bearing the above in mind, use the smallest aperture you can get away with - F8/F11 would be good. Rule of thumb is to focus 1/3 way into the group for max sharpness throughout. If you have to use a wide aperture, focus on the B&G instead.

Alternatively : do it outside or/ try asking the pro photographer again (but remember there is a huge amount of time pressure on them on a wedding day)

I'd agree here.

The biggest problem is getting everyone in the church to play ball. The ceremony will end, bride and groom will walk down the isle and people will start to follow and disperse.

I was at a wedding recently where this type of photo was done, it took a lot of effort for the photographer and priest to get everyone organised. A good amount of time was needed to herd everyone together and for the photographer to get the shots.

Compounding the issue here is the gear the OP will be using. Chances are lighting is going to be a problem, their lens (18-55mm kit) will not allow a lot of light in. Shooting F8+ will not be feasible on this camera, which has relatively poor ISO performance. And the OP will be under a lot of pressure to get the shots off. Using a flash really wont be great given it will be the integrated flash on the camera, only suitable for close shots imo. (I am making assumptions here as to the lighting in the church. But generally lighting is less than ideal)

Really I think if this is going to work you'll need the photographer of the day to take the photo, their gear and expertise are required here to pull this off. The OP can then be given the file asap to take to the printer.

Cameraman

Alanstrainor wrote: »

The biggest problem is getting everyone in the church to play ball. The ceremony will end, bride and groom will walk down the isle and people will start to follow and disperse.

Really I think if this is going to work you'll need the photographer of the day to take the photo, their gear and expertise are required here to pull this off. The OP can then be given the file asap to take to the printer.

Yes - Outside or Use the Pro are probably your best options.

But, failing that - do it before the B&G walk down the aisle. Far too messy to organise otherwise. Do it after the register signing - which is usually the last item before
the B&G are ready to leave.

fixXxer

By the way OP, you have my sympathies. I was asked to step in for a friends wedding to do the church part, as the booked photographer was sick and the stand by wasn't going to make it in time for the ceremony part.

It's horribly stressful. Everyone is a photography expert now since smart phone cameras became usable and think you only have to point the camera in the right direction and press the button. Keep calm and just do the best you can.

awec

I have a 1300D with that same kit lens. I’d be very surprised if you get f8 out of it within an acceptable ISO and shutter speed using just natural lighting in a church.

The problem is compounded because everyone in shot will be so small that any poor focus or bad noise could make individual people in the shot look terrible.

Effects

Bacchus wrote: »

You're still going to get the crop factor though due to the sensor. Also, you will probably get some aberration or distortion because you're using a lens designed for a different size sensor

I'd say you'd be looking at a 25mm equivalent in that case, which is fine.
Aberration and distortion are handled pretty well by software these days.
Distortion is a lens issue anyway and shouldn't make a difference based on the sensor. It's just the same light falling on a lesser area of sensor.

tcooley

Folks, thanks for all your advice. A lot to read through but some great advice there. Wedding not for a few months yet. So I will be onto groom before then. I think it would be best for the professional to do it on his camera and he could send onto me straight away.

Thanks again lads, got a lot out of this!

Effects

tcooley wrote: »

I think it would be best for the professional to do it on his camera and he could send onto me straight away.

Let him shoot it on your card as if he doesn't want to waste time, like you said, he won't want to boot up his laptop to transfer.