Gay Pride at work

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unfortunate.

Wow.
I have a permanent scar from two men attacking me and slashing my face with a stanley knife and that is the best way to sum it up "unfortunate".
Thanks a lot, this thread has turned into a cesspool.

kunst nugget

If you beat the **** out of someone while repeatedly shouting 'Fággot' at them, how is someone not meant to come to the conclusion that it's a homophobic attack? Seriously, this is starting to beggar belief…

kunst nugget

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unfortunate.

Bloody hell, that's harsh…

kunst nugget wrote: »

Bloody hell, that's harsh…

The irony of this persons username "one eyed jack" is not lost on me tbh...i almost lost my left eye..but hey "unfortunate"

gmisk wrote: »

Wow.
I have a permanent scar from two men attacking me and slashing my face with a stanley knife and that is the best way to sum it up "unfortunate".
Thanks a lot, this thread has turned into a cesspool.

When asked how I would describe anything that is not a persons fault, I would describe it as unfortunate. You weren't responsible for another persons actions so whatever trait or characteristic of yourself that you assume was their motivation is irrelevant, is the way I'd be thinking of it. It still wouldn't justify their actions.

I thought the same when I worked for the Red Ribbon Project in the late 90's and there were a small cohort of people who when they found out I wasn't gay, and that I was Catholic, they proceeded to attempt to make my life a living hell. I'm not going to assume it was anything about me that encouraged their behaviour, because I wasn't responsible either for their attitudes or behaviours - they were. Why should I assume that it was either because I am heterosexual or because I am Catholic that they chose to attempt to intimidate and attack me? A far simpler and more obvious explanation is that they were simply a bunch of assholes who thought I was an easy target they could take out their frustration on.

It was initially unfortunate for me, but it turned out to be rather unfortunate for them that they picked on the wrong target.

gmisk wrote: »

The irony of this persons username "one eyed jack" is not lost on me tbh...i almost lost my left eye..but hey "unfortunate"

The fact that something almost happened to you is irrelevant, it didn't happen. However, having said that, it would be silly of me to suggest that my old man is responsible for a hereditary condition which caused me to lose my sight in one eye. No, I would suggest that too, was simply unfortunate.

kunst nugget

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The fact that something almost happened to you is irrelevant, it didn't happen. However, having said that, it would be silly of me to suggest that my old man is responsible for a hereditary condition which caused me to lose my sight in one eye. No, I would suggest that too, was simply unfortunate.

Unless your father procreated with the specific purpose of having a child that would go blind in one eye, I don't see how you could draw a comparison.

Billy86

This is going to sound fecking rich coming from me of all people I know

, but I think we need to calm down a bit in the thread - every poster in here is very capable of having actual constructive, adult discussion (rather than flinging around labels like 'alt right', 'liberal snowflake', etc) and we're missing a bit of an opportunity to do so in the absence of much of any trolls over the last day or so (a true fecking rarity for this kind of topic on AH).

kunst nugget wrote: »

Unless your father procreated with the specific purpose of having a child that would go blind in one eye, I don't see how you could draw a comparison.

I didn't draw the initial comparison in the first place. It was gmisk who compared almost losing an eye to actually losing one's eyesight in one eye. They're really not comparable, and even someone who is blind in both eyes could see that.

Unless you're talking about the comparison I made to losing my sight and gmisk being attacked. I compared them simply on the basis that neither of us were responsible for the circumstances in which we found, or find ourselves.

Whether or not a person is gay is irrelevant as a justification for their being attacked. It simply shouldn't happen to anyone in the first place, and we hold the people who carried out the attack responsible for their actions rather than suggest that the victim is in any way responsible for the actions of someone else.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't draw the initial comparison in the first place. It was gmisk who compared almost losing an eye to actually losing one's eyesight in one eye. They're really not comparable, and even someone who is blind in both eyes could see that.

I did not make a comparison, I was simply saying it was ironic given your username and what almost happened to me with eye, I clearly had no idea of background of your name. It might be "irrelevant" to you but it isnt to me.
I find your use of the word "unfortunate" though as bizarre and really disrespectful if I am being honest but hey.

gmisk wrote: »

I did not make a comparison, I was simply saying it was ironic given your username and what almost happened to me with eye, I clearly had no idea of background of your name.

Would you suggest it was unfortunate or ironic that you couldn't possibly have known the background to my username, while trying to point out that what happened to you was a homophobic attack because they used slurs that are commonly used regardless of whether the person is homophobic, or whether the victim is homosexual, and therefore you couldn't possibly know the motivation for their attacking you?

It's fine, rhetorical question, I'm only pulling your leg... not, literally of course :pac:

gmisk wrote: »

I find your use of the word "unfortunate" though as bizarre and really disrespectful if I am being honest but hey.

I apologise then for using the word as it certainly wasn't intended to be disrespectful.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Would you suggest it was unfortunate or ironic that you couldn't possibly have known the background to my username, while trying to point out that what happened to you was a homophobic attack because they used slurs that are commonly used regardless of whether the person is homophobic, or whether the victim is homosexual, and therefore you couldn't possibly know the motivation for their attacking you?

It's fine, rhetorical question, I'm only pulling your leg... not, literally of course :pac:

I would say it was unfortunate...like I said unfortunate is not the right word from my POV for what happened to me, it seems pretty dismissive.

I dont think we are going to agree on what does and doesnt constitute a homophobic attack so best to just leave it, this thread is to do with gay pride at work as well so conscious of taking it even further off topic.

Also stop grabbing my leg in work!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I apologise then for using the word as it certainly wasn't intended to be disrespectful.

I appreciate that, apology accepted, thanks.

Graces7

Sonics2k wrote: »

Actually, funny story. We do have some people wearing the Pride Lanyards around work.

I'm wearing a Slytherin one I got from my daughter for Christmas. Not a single person has commented on it because nobody gives a toss.

This whole thing is starting to read more and more like a persecution complex.

Comes across as a deep rooted insecurity that demands like this.

kunst nugget wrote: »

Weren't you saying basically saying that other people that are different or stand out, like foreigners, get beat up as well so that means there was no homophobic element to the attack?

I said that the attack could be for any number of reasons. It could be because they were foreigners. It could have been because they were gay. It could have been because they had past history with the attackers.

The only thing we do know is that they were attacked. Anything else is pure speculation, and I'm tired on people pushing a homophobia slant as fact when there is no evidence to support it. Which is why in each instance, I have asked the posters to present evidence to support their belief that this was a hate crime.. and been met with silence.

wakka12 wrote: »

Also I don't agree that middle ireland cringe at sight of two men kissing or holding hands

Cringe? probably not, but as another poster said, we don't particularly want to see it either. I'd say the same about two women kissing, or any hetero couple. It's not really about sexuality, but the way we were brought up. I wouldn't go around kissing my gf passionately in public.

Holding hands is hardly an issue... But I do find that many gay couples almost feel the need to demonstrate (or make a public statement) that they are gay and together. Not all, mind you... but many do. It's just something I'd prefer people do in the privacy of their own homes, or anywhere private.

But the thing is... I'm not demanding that they do so. I reserve the right not to appreciate it.. but I'm not shoving my preference on to other people.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Has it ever occurred to you that because people who are LGB or T are a minority in society, and because we actually don't see the majority of heterosexual couples engaging in public displays of affection, that far more people who are heterosexual are wary about expressing public displays of affection than people who are homosexual? That is to say, the aversion to public displays of affection isn't at all based upon prejudice against people who are homosexual, but rather it's an aversion simply towards anyone, regardless of their gender or sexual orientation, displaying their affection for each other in public.

Plenty of people I know and have known throughout my lifetime who are either gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender have been just as averse to public displays of affection as I am. That doesn't make us either heterophobic, nor homophobic. It just is what it is, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. The only reason you associate a fear of displaying affection in public with homosexuality is due to your own prejudices, and as this thread is about Pride in the workplace, I would be surprised to see anyone, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, displaying affection for each other in the workplace. It's not discrimination, it's the belief that some behaviours are simply inappropriate in public, and best kept private. Different standards is all, nothing to do with either gender or sexual orientation at all.

Who said anything about showing affection in the workplace. Bizarre link to make. I don’t think any gay person has ever claimed they want to have a PDA in the workplace........

Sure there are straight people uncomfortable with PDAs in public. This is usually something like kissing (more than a peck On the cheek).

I don’t know any straight couples who are wary of holding hands or giving a goodbye peck on the cheek in public.

You can lumpunrelated stuff together (straight people uncomfortable with making out in public with their partners and gay people uncomfortable with holding hands in public) and make it seem like we all face the same issues. The reality is it’s not the same thing, they’re not the same reasons.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's really funny how 'boxed in' gay people consider themselves sometimes. I've lived in China where I lived in a city of 17 million Chinese people (the province having more) and there were 20k foreigners (not even white people). I've dated women in countries which have a "strong" dislike of foreigners taking/stealing their women. I've had nasty comments thrown at me in the street, objects thrown at me, spat on, and physically assaulted. I've also had the police take me in to their station for disturbing the peace because a group of Chinese guys assaulted me and got injured. I've also been on the receiving end of racial slurs and racial attacks... so... .

Just curious as to what you think would be the more common experience:

Irish gay people having negative prejudice experiences on their lifetime based on displays of affection

Or

Irish straight people having negative prejudice experiences in their lifetime based on displays of affection

So take a specific example which has been raised in relation to gay people and which you’ve raised in relation to straight people: being seen in public as part of a couple.

Would you say more gay irish men have experienced a problem with this in their lifetime or more straight irish men (for instance from being in a country where the locals don’t approve).

Also what would the experience of a gay irish man dating a gay Chinese man be if he was walking down the street in China?

ELM327 wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but kilmainham is most certainly not a good area. But I digress.
I've been called a f#ggot and other homophobic slurs too and set upon in bad areas. Does that make it a homophobic attack? Remember now, I'm not gay.

YES. That is 100% a homophobic attack. You don’t have to be gay to experience homophobia.

weldoninhio

ELM327 wrote: »

Yeah that's pretty much it to a T to be honest.
And it's why I get p1ssed sometimes when people accuse me of being alt right etc. I'm not actually right wing at all really on social issues. I voted yes to SSM, yes to abortion, would have voted yes to divorce, will vote yes to cannibis being legalised, etc etc.

But - like it or not - I do cringe internally when I see public display of affection between two men. And whether we like to admit it or not, a lot of people still have this.

I'm the "middle ground" that should be targeted by these people. I believe everyone should have equal rights and if two men (or two women) want to be together then why is it any of my business. And I'd never discriminate against someone based on their sexuality

What I do have an issue with, however, is "pride fatigue". We were bombarded for weeks in work about pride activities,multiple emails, happy pride, photos, threads from other countries etc. And I for one am sick of it being rubbed in our faces. We get it... you're gay. And I wouldn't discriminate against you for it or even think anything negative about your sexuality as it's none of my business. But if I were to bombard you with messages about straight relationships, photos, events etc for a month every year then you'd be sick of it too.

As I say... I'm not the "alt right". I'm not a nut job or a conservative religious loon (I'm actually part of the protest against the pope coming). Just an example of middle ireland.

Bill explains it best

https://youtu.be/CU9wkUnHmjE

weldoninhio

gmisk wrote: »

I think a lot of people would now consider it a good area...but yes you digress. "you liberals" you are embarassing yourself with this tripe.

They didnt ask for a wallet or money or a phone....they just shouted F#GGOT repeatedly before slashing me from the top of my forehead down over my eye lid and nose with a stanley knife...
So you would call what happened to me what exactly?

Were you wearing a sign stating you were gay?? How did they know you were homosexual?? ****** is a common inner city slur.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Just curious as to what you think would be the more common experience:

Irish gay people having negative prejudice experiences on their lifetime based on displays of affection

Or

Irish straight people having negative prejudice experiences in their lifetime based on displays of affection

Oh, definitely Irish gay men. But then I never suggested otherwise. I simply pointed out the fallacy in his assumption that straight people could never understand what Gay people have gone through.

Also what would the experience of a gay irish man dating a gay Chinese man be if he was walking down the street in China?

Ahh but China is very different about homosexuality since it's still technically illegal to be gay there. They haven't enforced the law regarding gay men for years, but a gay foreigner would have to step very lightly.

LLMMLL wrote: »

YES. That is 100% a homophobic attack. You don’t have to be gay to experience homophobia.

I don't get it. Been thinking about what you said above, but I don't understand it... unless the aggressors believed him to be gay. How would a non-gay person experience homophobia without that?

If someone doesn't think he's gay, or doesn't care, calls him a ****** or whatever slur, and continues to assault him, how is that a homophobic attack?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh, definitely Irish gay men. But then I never suggested otherwise. I simply pointed out the fallacy in his assumption that straight people could never understand what Gay people have gone through.

Ahh but China is very different about homosexuality since it's still technically illegal to be gay there. They haven't enforced the law regarding gay men for years, but a gay foreigner would have to step very lightly.

It’s not a fallacy. There’s multiple differences between what different groups experience even if the circumstances seem similar on the outside.

I know gay people who have been attacked for no apparent reason. They pretty much shrugged it off other than being a bit more nervous about similar situations. And I know people who have had similar attacks but which had a homophobic element. They seemed to find it much more traumatic and it affected them a lot more.

Your situation of experiencing abuse as an ethnic minority expat is not the same as that of a gay person. You can’t assume that you understand what they go through. Just as I would not assume I would understand what you went through in those Chinese situations or what a black person goes through when they are racially abused.

There are some clear differences in experience. You didn’t grow up in a society that portrayed dating a Chinese girl in China as deviant. You didn’t grow up with friends making nasty jokes about people who date Chinese girl in China etc. These things have an effect which compounds the physical attack.

And it goes both way. I can imagine how I might feel being abused abroad for dating a local but I don’t know. There could be lots of things that I’m imagining incorrectly because I’ve never actually experienced it.

Assuming you understand something because you’ve experienced something that has some similarities is a faulty assumption.

weldoninhio wrote: »

Were you wearing a sign stating you were gay?? How did they know you were homosexual?? ****** is a common inner city slur.

I was walking home with my partner, we werent being affectionate (Not holding hands etc).

I am guessing they assumed.
I didnt really get a chance to ask them "is this homophobic?" when they were in the middle of slashing my face with a stanley knife....it wasnt a priority.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't get it. Been thinking about what you said above, but I don't understand it... unless the aggressors believed him to be gay. How would a non-gay person experience homophobia without that?

If someone doesn't think he's gay, or doesn't care, calls him a ****** or whatever slur, and continues to assault him, how is that a homophobic attack?

I’m assuming they did believe him to be gay.

The other example he gave was a white person being attacked and being called the N word. Have you ever heard of that happening? As someone else pointed out, that would be ludicrous. People use certain slurs for certain reasons.

If they were calling him a queer or ****** then most likely they thought he was gay.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Assuming you understand something because you’ve experienced something that has some similarities is a faulty assumption.

Personally, IMO, Assuming that your experience in life is completely unique, and nobody can have experiences similar to yours is worse. I never said that I experienced what gay people have experienced, but I can appreciate some of what they experienced from examples in my own life. As can other people in various situations. The example I gave was in line with the previous posters contribution.

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m assuming they did believe him to be gay.

And the other posters have asked how would they have known considering they were strangers?

The other example he gave was a white person being attacked and being called the N word. Have you ever heard of that happening? As someone else pointed out, that would be ludicrous. People use certain slurs for certain reasons.

If they were calling him a queer or ****** then most likely they thought he was gay.

I don't think you understand the way boys/mens minds work, or the environment of male peer pressure. What is the worst insult to say to someone during a period when homosexuality was considered "wrong"? Yup.

Oh, you get the mother jokes, and inbreeding jokes, but you get past them pretty quickly during school but being accused or connected with being gay in a very masculine environment? That's a strong insult. And while it's worst when you're in school, it's the type of insult that continues to be used by various people until well into adulthood.

It doesn't matter whether they think you are or not. In all probability, they don't care... it's an insult designed to get a reaction, and generally, also designed to cast doubt over your reputation.

As for using the N word on white people... I have. Calling someone their ****** to suggest they're a slave. It wouldn't be common, but then, quite a few males have turned to the whole "gangland" or "black culture" way of speaking. In my experience, Black people use the N word far more than anyone else... and that's carried in their music which, in turn, is carried to those who like that kind of culture.

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't get it. Been thinking about what you said above, but I don't understand it... unless the aggressors believed him to be gay.

Exactly. If a person is perceived to gay then they can be the target of a homophobic attack.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Exactly. If a person is perceived to gay then they can be the target of a homophobic attack.

And if they don't believe him to be gay, but continue to make the insults and the assault? Is that still a homophobic attack? I wouldn't have thought it would be.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Personally, IMO, Assuming that your experience in life is completely unique, and nobody can have experiences similar to yours is worse. I never said that I experienced what gay people have experienced, but I can appreciate some of what they experienced from examples in my own life. As can other people in various situations. The example I gave was in line with the previous posters contribution.

I never claimed people don’t have similar experiences. Being mugged is a “similar” experience to a gay bashing. I’m criticising the notion that someone who has experienced something “similar” understands the experience of the other person/group. I’m sure you can appreciate some of what gay people have experienced. But only some. I think there are some clear differences between your experiences in China and a gay persons experiences in Ireland that would produce different experiences, even if you both were chased or beaten.

And the other posters have asked how would they have known considering they were strangers?

Well the three main ways in general would be PDAs/holding hands, perceived campness, or overhearing the conversation as they walk past.

I don't think you understand the way boys/mens minds work, or the environment of male peer pressure. What is the worst insult to say to someone during a period when homosexuality was considered "wrong"? Yup.

Oh, you get the mother jokes, and inbreeding jokes, but you get past them pretty quickly during school but being accused or connected with being gay in a very masculine environment? That's a strong insult. And while it's worst when you're in school, it's the type of insult that continues to be used by various people until well into adulthood.

It doesn't matter whether they think you are or not. In all probability, they don't care... it's an insult designed to get a reaction, and generally, also designed to cast doubt over your reputation.

As for using the N word on white people... I have. Calling someone their ****** to suggest they're a slave. It wouldn't be common, but then, quite a few males have turned to the whole "gangland" or "black culture" way of speaking. In my experience, Black people use the N word far more than anyone else... and that's carried in their music which, in turn, is carried to those who like that kind of culture.

I would say I’m just as aware as you are of how boys and men’s minds work.

I don’t see any reason to believe that random attackers of straight people tend to use homophobic language. I know people who have been gay bashed while being called names. I also know straight people who have been assaulted, and while I can’t say for certain their attackers didn’t use homophobic language, it’s certainly never been mentioned to me.

It’s a big leap to think that because it is or was a fairly common insult among men that random assaulters use it against the straight men they are assaulting.

As for racial insults against white people, even given your example where you use it, I think we can agree that it’s mostly used as an abusive term against black people. Quite a few Black people and some white people use it as a non abusive term for their friends. But as an abusive term it’s pretty much restricted to use against black people.

And I see it used relatively often against black people in Dublin and clearly in an abusive manner. It seems super duper unlikely to me that when a white person in Dublin is screaming the N word at a black person, that it’s just a coincidence and they would have screamed the N word at a white person in the same circumstances. So why is it unlikely that when a gay person is attacked and homophobic language is used against them that it’s a homophobic attack.

The parallels are clear and it seems far more likely that it’s a homophobic attack rather than a coincidence and they would have called a straight person they were attackig the exact same names.