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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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GM228

devnull wrote: »

Go Ahead have released an update on their progress - key points highlighted below.
https://www.go-aheaddublin.ie/newsroom-2/go-ahead-ireland-enjoys-surge-recruitment-depot-nears-completion/

Go-Ahead Ireland has signed an agreement with SIPTU to provide GAI with sole recognition for its employees

After a detailed consultation process GAI is pleased to announce an agreement with SIPTU (Services Industrial Professional and Technical Union). The agreement ensures our drivers and general operatives are represented in a mutually beneficial manner. We look forward to working alongside SIPTU now and into the future on matters relating to collective bargaining", said Ed Wills, Managing Director of GAI at today's announcement.

These are known as closed-shop pre-entry agreements and they are potentially unconstitutional and are contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights.

There are pre and post entry type agreements, post entry have already been deemed unconstitutional here (ironically involving CIE), but pre have not yet been dealt with by the Irish Courts, although the European Court of Human Rights has stated they are a breach of human rights. ECHR decisions are not binding here (but need to be judicially noted), and only SIPTU continue to make such agreements (they had one with Connex when the LUAS started and a few other companies) as all other unions have steered away from them, just in case a case is taken here in which case it is highly likely they will also be deemed unconstitutional.

GM228

Stephen Gawking wrote: »

Yeah be sure that worked out well for transdev didn't it. How siptu can claim to represent staff in Dublin bus & staff in go ahead is beyond logic. Surely there's a potential conflict of interest here...

Care to explain how that is beyond logic?

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

There are many reasons why a person might choice one company over the other.

First of all, there maybe more drivers looking to move then DB/BE are looking to take on.

Also someone might not like the "culture" at DB/BE, might not like the whole marked in culture and having to work crappy schedules for years if not decades. The schedules being offered by GA might be "better" or at least more dependable.

Given that it is a new company that is obviously hungry to grow, some enthusiastic individuals might feel they will have a better opportunity to grow and quickly move up the ladder in a new, growing company like this, then a mature company where people have already been in the position for a long time.

Of course if GA can't get enough drivers at the wage they are offering, they will have to up what they are offering.

The accepted wisdom on Boards,appears to revolve around posters regularly popping in to warn off applicants to BAC with doom laden warnings of "being spare for decades" etc etc.

Anybody contemplating a career in Public Transport,at ANY level will not experience a "normal" working environment and those who do,will rapidly fall aside.

That being said,the actual experience in BAC over the past 4 years,has not seen "90% of them new drivers leaving"...or "Half of them only lasting a month" etc etc,

The progress from New Entrant to experienced confident appointed Staff Member is something which all companies seek to ensure is as smooth and supportive as possible,and BAC are no different.

Within BAC these days,there are a multiplicity of roster/shift arrangements which staff operate,sometimes by means of local agreement or Managerial facilitation,but large numbers of spare drivers are availing of the opportunity to work-around what IS a highly demanding requirement to provide a Driver for every duty as required by the Contract.

With the arrival of expanded BusConnects operating hours,and 24 hour routes,this variety will Increase,bringing with it,additional flexibility of working arrangements,which,I fully expect the Canteen Oracles to see as a bad thing also :rolleyes:

Go-Ahead Ireland will have the same requirement,(verifiable IF and when,the NTA/Go-Ahead Contract is finally placed in the Public Domain) and I can be VERY confident in 12 months time,this thread will have a selection of GAI Staff giving out yards about dreadful duties,long spreadovers,and harsh uncaring management,who are dreadfully unfair.

New Entrants,who are prepared to keep an open mind,assess and adopt to the new-world,which Public Transport Operation may initially seem,will in time bed in,and learn to enjoy the Job for what it is...unique

As the Go Ahead recruitment process has proven,there is No shortage of potential Busdrivers (oddly enuf,Wage Rates not the primary consideration )...plenty of interest in the Job,and with a proper Staff Training and Development regime,a very lucrative step for a 21 year old to take as a medium term move.

The real losers here,are the indigineous Irish Operators,who have been happily exploiting young drivers for decades,with "In your hand" attractive sounding per-day payments,along with a requirement to "keep your phone on" and an interpretation of "Keep yer head to the wind" FAR beyond what any BAC BE or GAI driver would ever be required.

The arrival of a Professional,Large Scale Public Transport Operating group,can only be a good thing for the Irish PT Bus industry as a whole,and particularly for young Busdrivers,seeking a foothold and a possibility for further progression.

There has NEVER been a better time to get involved in the Bus Sector in Ireland,if you have an interest or leaning towards it...If,however you just want to sit around the Campfire and draw upon memories of the (often NOT so Good ol Days) whilst dooming & glooming all and sundry,then perhaps it's time to take a look at the thousands of opportunities available,in other FAR more Attractive and Lucrative occupations...yea ? ?

dfx-

Dr Brown wrote: »

It's almost guaranteed to fail in the long term.

You only have to look at the UK and other countries to see that.

Privatization of public services has been a disaster just about everywhere its been tried.

Whatever will happen, it won't fail. It's in both the NTA and GA's interests to see to that.

marno21 wrote: »

Dublin Bus were free to tender for this were they not?

If they can't compete that's their problem.

We don't know whether they could and couldn't compete as the details are still not available to my knowledge.

L1011

DB tendered and lost. That is very much known.

GM228

dfx- wrote: »

We don't know whether they could and couldn't compete as the details are still not available to my knowledge.

We do know they couldn't compete as they bid and lost, what we don't know however is in which area/areas of the bid they fell down on.

The bids were assesed on:-

Quality criterion - Name: Organisation Plan / Weighting: 8

Quality criterion - Name: Supervision and Control Strategy Plan / Weighting: 4

Quality criterion - Name: Authority Network Asset Maintenance Strategy Plan / Weighting: 9

Quality criterion - Name: Safety Management Plan / Weighting: 3

Quality criterion - Name: Revenue Protection Plan / Weighting: 4

Quality criterion - Name: Customer Service Policy / Weighting: 5

Quality criterion - Name: Security Management Plan / Weighting: 2

Price - Weighting: 65

tabbey

Creative83 wrote: »

What are 'yellow pack' wages :rolleyes:

"Yellow pack" means cheap.

The phrase is derived from Tesco supermarket which used it for their low priced (and probably lower quality) range of products.

markodaly

soundman45 wrote: »

We all know bus eireann and Dublin bus drivers are well paid and fair play to them nobody is think has a problem with that. The fact is go ahead will be an attractive job to a lot of drivers that work for private companies often on zero hour contracts and basically on call to take whatever job comes in with no work/life balance. Just last week I spoke with a driver who had worked 83 yes 83 hours the previous week and drivers like these will be delighted to take on a job with structured hours and a decent rate of pay and conditions and anyone who sneers at them for doing so is just being nasty.

Did the driver drive 83 hours or 'work' 83 hours.
Also, zero hour contracts are a pretty much outlawed.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contracts_without_specific_working_hours_zero_hours_contracts.html

GM228

tabbey wrote: »

"Yellow pack" means cheap.

The phrase is derived from Tesco supermarket which used it for their low priced (and probably lower quality) range of products.

The phrase was actually derived from the UK Fine Fare chains "Yellow Price Packs" brand which they launched in 1980. It was a term used to describe "low price" (hence the Yellow price Packs name) in house products and quickly was simply referred to as a "Yellow Pack" (aka cheap) products and Pat Quinn introduced the brand here under that term in 1981 for Quinnsworth products and he is often incorrectly recognised as coining the phrase.

Tesco introduced the "Value" (originally "Value Lines") product in competition with the Yellow Pack type brands.

It quickly became a term used to describe workers on less pay doing the same job as those before them.

[Deleted User]

markodaly wrote: »

Did the driver drive 83 hours or 'work' 83 hours.
Also, zero hour contracts are a pretty much outlawed.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contracts_without_specific_working_hours_zero_hours_contracts.html

Chap told me he did 83 hrs I didn't ask for a breakdown of what he did say his employer commonly exploits the old analogue tachograph telling drivers to discard used ones etc. Point is though people are knocking go ahead already but the terms and conditions offered there will be far superior to what many drivers in private hire companies are used to. As for bashing pay rates, everyone is free to choose where to work and it seems plenty are happy to work for go ahead. I applied for and have to decide if I will accept the offer of bus driver with them. If I do it will be for a smaller hourly rate than I am currently on but it is convenient for me to get to ballymount so that is a sacrifice I will probably make instead of commuting a longer distance to my current job incurring extra time, diesel, tolls etc therefore I would happy to work say 45hrs a week at go ahead where as I do a flat 40hrs now and I will probably be no worse off (hopefully)

GM228

markodaly wrote: »

Did the driver drive 83 hours or 'work' 83 hours.
Also, zero hour contracts are a pretty much outlawed.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contracts_without_specific_working_hours_zero_hours_contracts.html

Not yet, but will be soon bar for some casual workers. The Bill to outlaw them is currently at the 4th stage (out of 5) in the Dail. It may still some time off before the Bill becomes an Act though.

dfx-

GM228 wrote: »

We do know they couldn't compete as they bid and lost, what we don't know however is in which area/areas of the bid they fell down on.

The bids were assesed on:-

Quality criterion - Name: Organisation Plan / Weighting: 8

Quality criterion - Name: Supervision and Control Strategy Plan / Weighting: 4

Quality criterion - Name: Authority Network Asset Maintenance Strategy Plan / Weighting: 9

Quality criterion - Name: Safety Management Plan / Weighting: 3

Quality criterion - Name: Revenue Protection Plan / Weighting: 4

Quality criterion - Name: Customer Service Policy / Weighting: 5

Quality criterion - Name: Security Management Plan / Weighting: 2

Price - Weighting: 65

Largely useless to know what they both were judged on or the result, but how (and the reasoning given for such) they both were judged.

dashcamdanny

I bet there is a massive jump from SIPTU to the NBRU this week.

Stephen15

Could the NBRU take legal action against GAI and SIPTU for doing a deal which is against EU regulations

L1011

Yes, but it'd be phenomenally expensive and not guaranteed to succeed. They'd also need GA drivers who wanted to be represented by them or else they'd probably have no standing to take the case

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Could the NBRU take legal action against GAI and SIPTU for doing a deal which is against EU regulations

GA and SIPTU have not done any deal against EU regulations.

brokenarms

Big’ Jim Larkin would be turning in his grave .

Stephen15

brokenarms wrote: »

Big’ Jim Larkin would be turning in his grave .

https://www.facebook.com/WhispersNews/videos/10156792366285195/

liger

Has anybody heard how the management and supervisor jobs that were recently filled by GAI compare with their DB counterparts for wages?

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

Largely useless to know what they both were judged on or the result, but how (and the reasoning given for such) they both were judged.

Very relevant indeed.

The NTA remain unwilling to publish the actual contract as yet.

It is only a matter of time before somebody asks Anne Graham why this should be ?

Not for the first time,do I see merit in how other States handle their Tendering processes.....

Plenty of information available to Singaporeans....

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/sbs-transit-wins-bukit-merah-bus-package-for-s-472-million-9985310

SBST was one of six companies that had bid for the tender, which LTA called on Apr 28, 2017. The other bidders comprised SMRT Buses, The Go-Ahead Group and Tower Transit Singapore, Shenzhen Bus Group and a consortium of Jiaoyun Group and Travel GSH.
Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/sbs-transit-wins-bukit-merah-bus-package-for-s-472-million-9985310

It appears that Anne Graham and the NTA are waiting for Hell to freeze over,before they are prepared to allow mere mortals to have a peep at their TOP-SECRET COMMERCIALLY CONFIDENTIAL Operating Contracts..

The 3rd Secret of Fatima has nothing on the NTA

L1011

brokenarms wrote: »

Big’ Jim Larkin would be turning in his grave .

SIPTU is the merger of both the unions he formed, so probably not.

AlekSmart

L1011 wrote: »

SIPTU is the merger of both the unions he formed, so probably not.

SIPTU have form in this regard,within the CIE ambit,as back in the Bombardier Days,a deputation of CIE Staff on a protest march to Heuston Station HQ,were actually delivering a letter of protest to the Chairmans office,when news arrived that the then ITGWU (Irish Transport & General Workers Union) had concluded a Single Union Agreement with the then newly arrive Bombardier in Shannon.

Most people observing the developments since the Tendering round result,were very aware of the vast difference between the Hi-Profile negative NBRU reaction,via Dermot O'Leary and the total absence of any reaction from SIPTU Officials,so it should have not been a surprise to see the NBRU's nose being wiped in this instance.

It will all bed down...nobody will be discombobulated,but it does divert attention from the REAL issue....the emasculation of the BusConnects Plan,which if successful,WILL prevent additional employment and a better Bus System for EVERYBODY.

We have the opportunity for REAL progress here,but we remain well able to fling it all away in temper ?

Stephen15

Perhaps Bus Connects could prove positive for GAI. Perhaps the NTA could take GAI's depot location into account when assigning the new routes to them and assign orbital and outer suburban routes in West Dublin to them.

dublinman1990

Stephen15 wrote: »

Perhaps Bus Connects could prove positive for GAI. Perhaps the NTA could take GAI's depot location into account when assigning the new routes to them and assign orbital and outer suburban routes in West Dublin to them.

I wouldn't know what to say from Go Ahead's perspective if they have to change their bus routes they had initially agreed to run going from their contract in the first place. Their contract with the NTA lasts for five years. BusConnects is being implemented only a year later while they are in existence while they run the original contracted routes from Dublin Bus. I'm for one am not sure about how these proposed routes for BusConnects are factored in with Go-Ahead.

I suppose if I could take an idea of routes in Blackrock & Dun Laoghaire. Here is what I could think could how they could be broken into each operator.

Dublin Bus

7 - Glasnevin to Dun Laoghaire

E1 - Dun Laoghaire to Northwood

222 - Dun Laoghaire to Bride's Glen

225 - Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum Luas

Go Ahead Ireland

S6/S7 - Blackrock to Tallaght

S8 - Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght

211 - Dun Laoghaire to Kilmacanogue

221 - Dun Laoghaire to Killiney Hill

226 - Blackrock to Kilternan

227 - Blackrock to Ballyogan

229 - Dun Laoghaire to Bride's Glen

Am I getting somewhere with my preferred list of routes & operators after BusConnects is fully implemented?

Qrt

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I wouldn't know what to say from Go Ahead's perspective if they have to change their bus routes they had initially agreed to run going from their contract in the first place. Their contract with the NTA lasts for five years. BusConnects is being implemented only a year later while they are in existence while they run the original contracted routes from Dublin Bus. I'm for one am not sure about how these proposed routes for BusConnects are factored in with Go-Ahead.

I suppose if I could take an idea of routes in Blackrock & Dun Laoghaire. Here is what I could think could how they could be broken into each operator.

Dublin Bus

7 - Glasnevin to Dun Laoghaire

E1 - Dun Laoghaire to Northwood

222 - Dun Laoghaire to Bride's Glen

225 - Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum Luas

Go Ahead Ireland

S6/S7 - Blackrock to Tallaght

S8 - Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght

211 - Dun Laoghaire to Kilmacanogue

221 - Dun Laoghaire to Killiney Hill

226 - Blackrock to Kilternan

227 - Blackrock to Ballyogan

229 - Dun Laoghaire to Bride's Glen

Am I getting somewhere with my preferred list of routes & operators after BusConnects is fully implemented?

I doubt any more than 10% of the routes would be allocated to Go-Ahead considering that's what the initial deal was.

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I wouldn't know what to say from Go Ahead's perspective if they have to change their bus routes they had initially agreed to run going from their contract in the first place. Their contract with the NTA lasts for five years. BusConnects is being implemented only a year later while they are in existence while they run the original contracted routes from Dublin Bus. I'm for one am not sure about how these proposed routes for BusConnects are factored in with Go-Ahead.

I'd assume that the NTA knew perfectly well that BusConnects was going to result in big changes in routes and as a result a great degree of flexibility to change routes as needed was written into GoAhead contract.

I'd assume that such flexibility will be written into any future tenders.

I'd suspect how Dublin Bus will respond to all this will be more of a concern.

I've no proof of this at all. But I think many of us observing this felt GA probably scored highly on flexibility and proven track record of working well with the regulators in London and Singapore. DB, well lets be honest, not so much, though they do seem to be improving since they lost this tender.

devnull

It seems the Go-Ahead effect is shaking up the wider market for coach drivers.

Aircoach are now also advertising that they are going to train up staff to get them licensed to drive their vehicles.

Stephen15

I wonder how Go-Aheads system will work when they take over the BE routes. Will drivers be assigned ex BE coaches aswell as ex DB buses will they both urban and regional routes or will drivers only drive coaches and others only driver coaches.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wonder how Go-Aheads system will work when they take over the BE routes. Will drivers be assigned ex BE coaches aswell as ex DB buses will they both urban and regional routes or will drivers only drive coaches and others only driver coaches.

In the interests of flexibility at least it would make sense if the jobs were integrated.

Vic_08

GM228 wrote: »

In the interests of flexibility at least it would make sense if the jobs were integrated.

In the interests of minimising a lot of dead running it would make sense if GA established depots at the outer ends of the main Kildare routes as BE do.

Most duties on the 126 currently operate from Newbridge and the 120 from Edenderry.

I wonder if any of the current BE drivers based at those locations are considering transferring. I expect most of them aren't at all happy with the prospect of transferring to the city centre, it could easily add 3-4 hours to the working day of many of them.

There is also the differences in ticketing and fare collection on the two contracts, presumably the city routes will have to retain a farebox while the regional routes will need cash handling as well as different leap card procedures. The cash/fares will need to be kept seperate for accounting puropses as well.

65kph buses are also not going to be ideal for the regional routes, particularly the 120. Certainly wouldn't fancy a trip to Tullamore on one.