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From the Pantibar!!!

Atoms for Peace

Seriously RTE, reporting on the issues facing lgbt youths from outside a bar?
What next abortion legislation from copper faced jacks, probably due the mainstream media obsession with the place.
Not trying to be offensive but it does seem to trivialise the issue.

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Calhoun

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Let's look at the evidence...

Your view on an incident where two gay men were beaten with hurls:

Your view on a prominent gay pub having its window smashed on Pride weekend - by a brick with a homophobic message on it:

If you don't want to be perceived as a homophobe, then maybe you should engage in a (what I suspect would be very fucking rare) moment of introspection, and consider exactly why you feel the need to downplay a homophobic attack, or deny that an incident of homophobic vandalism even happened.

Yes, it's fair to say that gay people generally have it easier nowadays than twenty or thirty years ago, but to suggest that Pride is unnecessary or that homophobic attacks are no longer something to be feared in this country is to ignore the lived experiences of gay people. And that takes a fuck-load of arrogance - the sort of arrogance that only privilege can bring.

Ah we are straight up importing the American liberal politics now.

Love how privilege is used to discredit any opposing views, I do hope it doesn't have the same impact at it does in America and polarize people against the community.

[Deleted User]

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Let's look at the evidence...

Your view on an incident where two gay men were beaten with hurls:

It's hardly evidence of him or anyone else being homophobic to question the association with violence and sexuality.

I've looked at a number of articles about that attack, and there is no evidence of it being related to sexuality. There is no record of the attackers leaving any message, being caught on camera, or stating any belief.

The only people claiming that it is homophobic are the couple who were attacked... and they could easily be doing that to gain sympathy in the hopes of their medical bills somehow being covered.

Or simply they assume that every attack against them is related to them being gay... irrespective of the fact that people get attacked for all manner of reasons.

Straight men don't hold a monopoly on being assholes, irritating etc, and this attack could easily be because of their behavior towards a group of nutjobs. They're still victims, but not because of their sexual beliefs.

Until you can provide evidence that this was an attack directly related to their sexuality, Conservatory is completely justified in questioning the claims. As is anyone else.

Your view on a prominent gay pub having its window smashed on Pride weekend - by a brick with a homophobic message on it:

One incident. Has the George faced many attacks each year every year since it opened? Nah. one attack a year on a famous pub is hardly a footnote. Two attacks? Twenty in a year? Go ask any mainstream pub owner, how much vandalism and violence they're on the receiving end....

You're attempting to present Ireland as if it's some kind of haven for homophobes. It's not. It could have been considered homophobic thirty years ago, but now, not a chance. Some people are going to be homophobic but they're a definite minority in this country.

Unless you want to provide some actual evidence?

Yes, it's fair to say that gay people generally have it easier nowadays than twenty or thirty years ago, but to suggest that Pride is unnecessary

It's necessary for what it is. An expression of Gay Pride. That's it.

or that homophobic attacks are no longer something to be feared in this country is to ignore the lived experiences of gay people. And that takes a fuck-load of arrogance - the sort of arrogance that only privilege can bring.

And see, this is different from what was said earlier. Any attack is always to be "feared" for any group, gay or otherwise. However, there is no serious environment in this country of homophobia, and assuming attacks towards gay people are related to their sexuality without evidence... is ridiculous and should be squashed.

How Soon Is Now

Calhoun wrote: »

Ah we are straight up importing the American liberal politics now.

Love how privilege is used to discredit any opposing views, I do hope it doesn't have the same impact at it does in America and polarize people against the community.

Ya shame people have to attach themselves onto more American bull****.

One the reasons I've no time for pride is because there's a awful lot of Liberal politics attached to the lgbt scene in general now.

You won't just have gay men and women out enjoying themselves today and in fairness I've no real issue with thrm anyway! your gonna have a load of multi coloured hair new aged feminist goons clinging on!

I seen enough of this last year in Dublin City centre.

mikemac2

White_hills wrote: »

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/06/30/pride-me-sideways/

The second issue is the commercialisation of the Pride parade. There are employers on that list of sponsors who I know treat their employees like ****, would they be as quick to engage with a union as they would with employees about gay pride?

Tis an interesting point and we had a thread on it earlier this week. Some businesses want to hop on the bandwagon and grab some PR but still treat their staff badly

[Deleted User]

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

And that takes a fuck-load of arrogance - the sort of arrogance that only privilege can bring.

I skipped over this earlier.. honestly didn't register, but this concept of "privilege" is a cop out. The statistics both here in Ireland and in all western countries don't support the concept of either a white privilege, or a heterosexual privilege. Legal equality is a fact. The mechanisms are in place for any person who feels to be a victim of discrimination to lay a claim and have it investigated.. and TBF members of association like being homosexual, or a minority are more likely to receive sympathy than a heterosexual white male. That's not privilege... it's just the way things are.

Most jobs cannot and don't make any reference to sexual orientation, which means that being Heterosexual doesn't earn any extra benefits. The vast majority of gay people don't promote their sexual orientation (neither do hetro) and so they're treated the same. However, those people who do promote their orientation or seek to make themselves obviously different (being "camp", or overly masucline) are going to be on the receiving end of more positive and negative attention. Why? Because they go looking for it.

Privilege is a way of escaping responsibility for your own life, and choices. As a person over 41 years, I have been put in hospital 3 times, assaulted 7 times, mugged 4 times, and not once have I assumed it was because I was either a heterosexual male (although I did cause some trouble chatting up someones GF), or because I was male, or because I was white. It was because I was unlucky or outright stupid to bring that attention on myself.

How Soon Is Now

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I skipped over this earlier.. honestly didn't register, but this concept of "privilege" is a cop out. The statistics both here in Ireland and in all western countries don't support the concept of either a white privilege, or a heterosexual privilege. Legal equality is a fact. The mechanisms are in place for any person who feels to be a victim of discrimination to lay a claim and have it investigated.. and TBF members of association like being homosexual, or a minority are more likely to receive sympathy than a heterosexual white male. That's not privilege... it's just the way things are.

Most jobs cannot and don't make any reference to sexual orientation, which means that being Heterosexual doesn't earn any extra benefits. The vast majority of gay people don't promote their sexual orientation (neither do hetro) and so they're treated the same. However, those people who do promote their orientation or seek to make themselves obviously different (being "camp", or overly masucline) are going to be on the receiving end of more positive and negative attention. Why? Because they go looking for it.

Privilege is a way of escaping responsibility for your own life, and choices. As a person over 41 years, I have been put in hospital 3 times, assaulted 7 times, mugged 4 times, and not once have I assumed it was because I was either a heterosexual male (although I did cause some trouble chatting up someones GF), or because I was male, or because I was white. It was because I was unlucky or outright stupid to bring that attention on myself.

You summed the whole thing up perfectly.

Yer Da sells Avon

Deleted User wrote: »

Get t**** with your privilege nonsense. You have no idea what goes on in other people's lives. It reminds me of that whole "punch up, never punch down" victim mentality rule in comedy.

If you feel you can judge someone and declare that they have "privilege" based purely on their colour/gender or orientation then frankly you are the bigot.

Check your privilege? Don't you dare assume my life experiences.

Omackeral wrote: »

In agreement with nearly all of that.

That last line irks me terribly though. Privilege. I can't abide that. I'm privileged because I happen to like people of the opposite sex? I'm privileged because there's a minority of wanker that pick on people that are different to them? I think the only ones that deserve any label are the pricks that are harassing gay people.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Did some gobshite really tell somebody else to check their privilege?

This is a parody right?

Calhoun wrote: »

Ah we are straight up importing the American liberal politics now.

Love how privilege is used to discredit any opposing views, I do hope it doesn't have the same impact at it does in America and polarize people against the community.

Deleted User wrote: »

I skipped over this earlier.. honestly didn't register, but this concept of "privilege" is a cop out. The statistics both here in Ireland and in all western countries don't support the concept of either a white privilege, or a heterosexual privilege. Legal equality is a fact. The mechanisms are in place for any person who feels to be a victim of discrimination to lay a claim and have it investigated.. and TBF members of association like being homosexual, or a minority are more likely to receive sympathy than a heterosexual white male. That's not privilege... it's just the way things are.

Most jobs cannot and don't make any reference to sexual orientation, which means that being Heterosexual doesn't earn any extra benefits. The vast majority of gay people don't promote their sexual orientation (neither do hetro) and so they're treated the same. However, those people who do promote their orientation or seek to make themselves obviously different (being "camp", or overly masucline) are going to be on the receiving end of more positive and negative attention. Why? Because they go looking for it.

Privilege is a way of escaping responsibility for your own life, and choices. As a person over 41 years, I have been put in hospital 3 times, assaulted 7 times, mugged 4 times, and not once have I assumed it was because I was either a heterosexual male (although I did cause some trouble chatting up someones GF), or because I was male, or because I was white. It was because I was unlucky or outright stupid to bring that attention on myself.

Thanks for sharing your views, lads.

Imreoir2

yesto24 wrote: »

You do realise 10 years ago was 2008?
Things were not that bad then.
Even 20 years ago I don't think that would have happened.

You don't think LGBT youths faced problems like that 5 years after being Gay stopped being a criminal offence in this country? Seriously?

[Deleted User]

Hapax Legomenon wrote:

Thanks for sharing your views, lads.

Not a problem; it was my privilege

[Deleted User]

Hapax Legomenon wrote:

Thanks for sharing your views, lads.

Not a problem; it was my privilege

TheValeyard

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You don't think LGBT youths faced problems like that 5 years after being Gay stopped being a criminal offence in this country? Seriously?

That was 1993, not 2003.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

You're attempting to present Ireland as if it's some kind of haven for homophobes. It's not. It could have been considered homophobic thirty years ago, but now, not a chance.

Could have been? Again, lets try not to forget that being gay in this country was illegal less than 30 years aog.

Imreoir2

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

That was 1993, not 2003.

Yes, I am able to count. 20 years ago was 1998, which is five years after homosexuality was legalised.

TheValeyard

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Yes, I am able to count. 20 years ago was 1998, which is five years after homosexuality was legalised.

User mentioned 2008. So you can count, but can you read?

[Deleted User]

Imreoir2 wrote:

Could have been? Again, lets try not to forget that being gay in this country was illegal less than 30 years aog.

It's not now though so what's your point?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm wondering if perhaps you're making their sexuality an issue, or they did to gain sympathy. They could have been beaten up because they were assholes.

Gay guys can cause trouble for themselves just as much as straight guys... and it not be related to their sexuality.

i was speaking in the abstract not about any particular incident. Unless you think ALL the gays are asking for it?

Conservatory

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i was speaking in the abstract not about any particular incident. Unless you think ALL the gays are asking for it?

You keep trying to insinuate everybody is a homophobe. A lot of gays used to get beaten up by other gays after having sex with them. Is this still an issue? Why does nobody talk about this?

ohnonotgmail

Conservatory wrote: »

You keep trying to insinuate everybody is a homophobe. A lot of gays used to get beaten up by other gays after having sex with them. Is this still an issue? Why does nobody talk about this?

Not everybody. But there does sure seem to be a lot of them on this thread. I blame our education system.

[Deleted User]

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i was speaking in the abstract not about any particular incident.

You responded to part of a post from Conservatory. Hardly speaking in the abstract.

Unless you think ALL the gays are asking for it?

And now you're seeking to put me into a defensive area about this as if I have anything against gay people.

However, lets think about this rationally. When it comes to people, when can you say ALL hetros do this, or ALL hetro married men do that? You can't.

You have presented no evidence to show that gay men in this country are under any real threat because of their sexual orientation. Abstract or not, that needs to be addressed considering the approach of your comments.

Do some gay men get beaten up? Sure they do. I have a shaking disorder, and have gotten beaten up. Did that mean that all men with a shaking disorder got beaten up? nope. Not in the slightest.

And so, we jump to, did I get beaten up because of my shaking disorder? It's possible. I've had thousands of insults sent my way over the decades about it... but it's unlikely. Why? Because there's no evidence to support it. Just as there's no evidence to support your stance of a hostile environment towards gay people.

edit:

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Not everybody. But there does sure seem to be a lot of them on this thread. I blame our education system.

Well, that's pretty ugly. People have different opinions than you, and you insult them. For all your talk about homophobes, you're rather intolerant. Seems rather selective. But I'd be happy to compare my education with yours and be confident of walking away head held up high.

Conservatory

I think the furthest you could go with Ireland these days is

Sometimes mentally ill people are homophobes or sometimes feral scum attack people and they don’t care what your orientation or color is if you don’t reply to them with something that suggests you are the same as them they will probably attack you. That’s a mental health or drug/alcohol issue though not a homophobe pandemic issue.

Even on a building site now a gay fella would work away and not get anymore slagging than anybody else. Would they slag him for being gay? Some might but they would be doing it in jest (they just wouldn’t know better) just like they’d slag me because hayfever makes me blink or a lad that directs the crane who looks and probably is Mexican.

It’s standard boys being boys and that’s the worst that young gay people will have it these days. They really should be thanking 40 and 50 year old gay people who fought against real discrimination for this.

The funny thing is I do have family and friends who are gay and the younger ones complain about older gay men being in clubs and I’m thinking

You smart fecker there wouldn’t be gay clubs if it wasn’t for men of that generation actually physically fighting for them. Suppose it’s like how Vietnam veterans felt when they came back from the war.

Not that I believe in war but the Americans probably felt the same.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

You responded to part of a post from Conservatory. Hardly speaking in the abstract.

And now you're seeking to put me into a defensive area about this as if I have anything against gay people.

However, lets think about this rationally. When it comes to people, when can you say ALL hetros do this, or ALL hetro married men do that? You can't.

You have presented no evidence to show that gay men in this country are under any real threat because of their sexual orientation. Abstract or not, that needs to be addressed considering the approach of your comments.

Do some gay men get beaten up? Sure they do. I have a shaking disorder, and have gotten beaten up. Did that mean that all men with a shaking disorder got beaten up? nope. Not in the slightest.

And so, we jump to, did I get beaten up because of my shaking disorder? It's possible. I've had thousands of insults sent my way over the decades about it... but it's unlikely. Why? Because there's no evidence to support it. Just as there's no evidence to support your stance of a hostile environment towards gay people.

edit:

Well, that's pretty ugly. People have different opinions than you, and you insult them. For all your talk about homophobes, you're rather intolerant. Seems rather selective. But I'd be happy to compare my education with yours and be confident of walking away head held up high.

why would i be tolerant of homophobia?

yesto24

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why would i be tolerant of homophobia?

It's not homophobia.
It is what you think homophobia is, but it just isn't.

batgoat

Conservatory wrote: »

You keep trying to insinuate everybody is a homophobe. A lot of gays used to get beaten up by other gays after having sex with them. Is this still an issue? Why does nobody talk about this?

You're taking bizarre lengths to ignore hate crime.

ohnonotgmail

yesto24 wrote: »

It's not homophobia.
It is what you think homophobia is, but it just isn't.

you will have to excuse me if i dont take the opinion of somebody who posts ****e like the post below seriously

yesto24 wrote: »

And what is worse?
They are both going to hurt just as bad. Are gay bones more brittle than straight bones? Does gay skin cut more easily than straight skin?
This is the problem of the idea of a hate crime, surely all crimes of kicking the **** of someone innocent is a hate crime?

Conservatory

batgoat wrote: »

You're taking bizarre lengths to ignore hate crime.

It’s not really hate crime it’s just crime. I got a hiding off 3 lads once heading home from the off license they took all my cans. If I was gay would it be a hate crime?

Will I Am Not

Conservatory wrote: »

It’s not really hate crime it’s just crime. I got a hiding off 3 lads once heading home from the off license they took all my cans. If I was gay would it be a hate crime?

It might be a hate crime and it might not be.

TheDavester

Conservatory wrote: »

It’s not really hate crime it’s just crime. I got a hiding off 3 lads once heading home from the off license they took all my cans. If I was gay would it be a hate crime?

the sjw/pc brigade might have had a GoFundMe for you to replace the cans if you said you were gay

Conservatory

Will I Am Not wrote: »

It might be a hate crime and it might not be.

But ....... ah never mind

Conservatory

TheDavester wrote: »

the sjw/pc brigade might have had a GoFundMe for you to replace the cans if you said you were gay

Girlfriend cousin got induced coma from a one punch attack before.
It only dawned on me now that it must have been because he is gay. I’m going to out him to his wife and kids.

AllForIt

I actually agree with some of the last few points made by Klaz and others. It's quite possible that those guys who beat up those other guys are in fact low life scumbags committed to sexual and gender equality for all and not in fact homophobic low life scumbags. We just don't know at this stage as there is no evidence either way.

On a serious note though aren't they some fu*king apes to hit a a person in the face with a hurl for whatever reason. They should be done for attempted murder, something I hope we could all agree on.