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Any of you never had a relationship?

shakeitoff

I am 29 and never been in a relationship, I've never even really hit it off with a girl. Came close about 5 years ago but fizzled out. Nothing after that. Not really sure I care now, be so weird to go through the awkward initial stages at this age.

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_Brian

My brother was a late bloomer too but he’s happily married now, few short years ago I’d have said it would never happen for him.

Does it bother you ?

shakeitoff

I think as I get older not having a gf to 'hold me down' is actually keeping me younger. I don't think I'd like the 2 kids and marriage life. I also can't imagine I'd ever connect with someone enough. I'm sociable but not overtly so and I'm way too content in my own company. That's fine for lad mates but when it comes to girls not so much. I have no female friends, some I drink with and party with but I've never had a close girl friend.

Sprinter Sacre

I'm a bit younger than ya OP but I'd be the same. Just don't seem to be a relationships lad. I'd be against marriage anyway as it is pretty pointless and expensive concept but I don't have the discipline to work through problems in a relationship which I hear is a big thing. As soon as a woman starts arguing with me I piss off as I cannot stand for drama, life is tough enough and short enough as it is.

sky88

shakeitoff wrote: »

I am 29 and never been in a relationship, I've never even really hit it off with a girl. Came close about 5 years ago but fizzled out. Nothing after that. Not really sure I care now, be so weird to go through the awkward initial stages at this age.

ive just turned 30 and im the same way a few close calls but never anything serious. a lot of it was down to my shyness/awkwardness when i was younger but honestly doesnt bother me too much if something happens now itll happen

adam88

Purposefully avoided them like the plaque in my early and mid 20s, turning 30 next month and wouldn’t mind having someone to quiten me but.........
I’ll be waiting I think

[Deleted User]

shakeitoff wrote: »

I am 29 and never been in a relationship, I've never even really hit it off with a girl. Came close about 5 years ago but fizzled out. Nothing after that. Not really sure I care now, be so weird to go through the awkward initial stages at this age.

OP, I had my first serious relationship when I was 30. Since then, I've had two more, and I've almost been married once. I'm 41 now, and frankly, have come to terms with being 'single'. Not everyone is cut out for relationships. Personally I find them to be rather tedious.

I'd also suggest that 30-40 is probably the best time for dating since most BS is gone.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Not everyone is cut out for relationships.

I would agree there. Some men and women just don't fit well with relationships and many get into them because of societal and familial pressures. That's more the case with women though. Women tend to get a lot more of that stuff than men.

I'd say it's a sliding scale too. Some are "built" for relationships, tend to be more sociable in general and are rarely single and when are tend to be uncomfortable being so. Others are very much not cut out for them and are actually happier being single. The majority would lie somewhere in the middle. For obvious reasons as humans are social animals and the drive to pair bond is one of the strongest ones.

I would say that there is a third group; that is people who would like to be in a relationship, but for whatever reason(s) don't get on the "relationship ladder" early on, feel left out of all that and over time IMHO convince themselves they're happier not being in one. Over time too they tend to become less and less suited to a relationship so if one happens to fall in their lap they're not ready for it or practiced in it. Which reinforces their idea that they're not suited to one. This is a bigger problem for men. Why? Because in society men are the ones generally expected to do the pursuing in the early stages. Now some women will most certainly ask a guy out, but it's rare enough and I would say it's rarer for guys who aren't those who would stand out socially to be asked out. IE all things equal an average looking socially shy woman will get a lot more approaches from potential partners than an average looking socially shy man.

I'd also suggest that 30-40 is probably the best time for dating since most BS is gone.

I certainly noticed it was much easier after 30. I simply got far more attention and noticed said attention after around that age. In my teens and twenties I got less attention and only later realised what attention I did get I generally missed. I was also generally better in relationships past 30. More attentive, less reactive, though still had areas in need of improvement.

shakeitoff

I am the third group for sure. I'm not bad looking(well, I keep myself fit, dress in a way that suits my looks) but girls never even flirt with me. I definitely feel out of the loop now, of course there are exceptions but I can't see any change, I'm just not gonna meet enough new people. I met so many new people in the past 7 years and nothing came out of it, so you'd expect things to continue in a similar trend. I'm actually an awkward person but not in a dorky way, I think maybe my decent/good looks combined with my awkward enough personality goes against me. The type of girls who are attracted to me I reckon, don't take too kindly to awkward guys.

[Deleted User]

shakeitoff wrote: »

I am the third group for sure. I'm not bad looking(well, I keep myself fit, dress in a way that suits my looks) but girls never even flirt with me. I definitely feel out of the loop now, of course there are exceptions but I can't see any change, I'm just not gonna meet enough new people. I met so many new people in the past 7 years and nothing came out of it, so you'd expect things to continue in a similar trend. I'm actually an awkward person but not in a dorky way, I think maybe my decent/good looks combined with my awkward enough personality goes against me. The type of girls who are attracted to me I reckon, don't take too kindly to awkward guys.

Culture plays a big part in all of this. I couldn't get a more than a couple of dates a year in Ireland, and very few of them went past the second date. The low population, added with the culture (this being before all the immigrants really began arriving) added to the sense of inadequacy.

Then I went abroad to OZ, and I was rolling in dates. The women there (from all manner of cultures/nations) found me to be sweet, charming and intelligent. Then I moved to Asia, and my dating skyrocketed to heights my friends in Europe found amazing. In Ireland, I was dorky, unexciting, and unattractive.

My genuine advice to all men who haven't found success in Ireland is to leave for a few years. (You can still return if Ireland is where you want to live) Not to the UK or US though. Leave Western Europe and get some experience with women who will appreciate you.

Now whenever I'm in Ireland, I have no issue with dating... because I have the confidence of knowing my worth, and believing in that worth.

H3llR4iser

I could probably write a 500 pages essay on this subject, but this ain't the place to look for literary fame

As many said already, regardless of cultural and peer pressure a number of us (that includes men and women alike) simply aren't built for the whole "suburban house, garden and 2.7 children" thing.

At 37, I've had about 2 meaningful relationships (more like 1.5, but that's a different story for another day) and well, to me nothing beats waking up on a Saturday morning knowing you can do anything you want anytime you like. No "places to be", kids to bring to football practice and so on. If I want to start the car and drive aimlessly until sundown, I can. If I want to sleep all day, I can. You get the picture, I guess.

Again, I have to restrain myself here - TD;DR - don't beat yourself, if you find the prospect of a relationship and all that it encompasses (saturday afternoons at the shopping center, "having" to go for a "walk on the beach" because it's sunny and so on) it's because, most likely, you actually don't enjoy this stuff. And that's entirely ok.

Mokuba

I'm very cynical about the whole thing.

I see too many couples who are constantly arguing. Then any activity that they do is plastered all over social media.

I enjoy my freedom, I like spending my money on things I like. I travel a lot following sporting teams and I would have no interest whatsoever in stopping that or involving a girl in that. I like going to the cinema with the same 2 or 3 friends because we have very similar tastes and behave appropriately in the cinema. I have no interest in changing.

I guess if the right person came along, but as a man you have to find the right person. Not only that but I have a few things that I would want in a partner and it's fairly unrealistic in this day and age. She would have to display a good interest in fitness and keeping herself in shape, non smoker, somebody who isn't taking half naked selfies for social media, not out getting drunk constantly and a few more. And then the obvious one is physical attraction on top of that. It's kind of ironic as the gym part seems to go hand in hand with the instagram selfie ****e these days. I literally despise social media and it's no coincidence that my closest friends are rarely if ever on it either.

I'm a good looking guy, so if I want for intimacy I am able to find it. And that does me for now, the one night stand or hooking up a few times before going our separate ways, I'm very laid back about it.

The thought of marriage or kids is terrifying to me. Even though I think I would be an amazing father, as I have always been amazing with kids - just the thought of navigating that with a partner is a little off putting. I have heard plenty of stories about the intimacy going away after the child arrives too, maybe that's just the people I talk to. In terms of marriage, I guess watching my parents argue a lot growing up has made me think of it as a punishment or a nightmare.

ancapailldorcha

Nope.

Perhaps I might fall into Wibbs' Third Category up there. Just never happened for me.

I'm 30 now and fairly content with my lot. Would like to be much closer to living alone/owning a property but aside from that I'm wise enough to know things could be much worse.

I get the feeling like dating is a skill not unlike how small children learn the fundamentals of human interaction by being among others in the same boat at an early age. I suppose you need to learn to read things like body language and cues along with hearing things that aren't said when women say things like... well, I don't know unfortunately.

That said, I'm at a stage where I very much enjoy both my own company and my own freedom. If I want to go out, go to the cinema or chill with a film/game/book then I do so as I please. I went to Kiev recently for the Champions League final with two friends. They got bladdered one night and spent most of the following day in bed whereas I had a bit less to drink and explored the Lavre. I just got back from a fortnight in Cuba. Did the whole thing alone. The Mother asked me if I was lonely and, shocking, I wasn't at all. Met a few people over there and even went to dinner with a few Italian girls. Was grand, like.

I don't know about children but I do think I would like to meet someone. I'm not so sure it's likely though. I have a few dating apps and profiles and have got zilch. Even on dating sites, women put up pics of themselves doing the duck lips thing, slapping "Ask" in the About Me section and then moan and moan about there being no decent men out there. My housemate is currently using very misleading pics of herself as well. Honestly, I'd just like to meet someone intelligent, witty, physically attractive who enjoys at least a few of the things I do. I don't see it happening and to be honest, I don't see it as being the end of the world.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd say it's a sliding scale too. Some are "built" for relationships, tend to be more sociable in general and are rarely single and when are tend to be uncomfortable being so.

I think there's two different things there. The people I know who are always in relationships (other than those who stayed with an early one) are the last people I think should be in a relationship. :pac:

Anyway I'm pushing 30, not had much in the way of relationships. Online dating doesn't work for me at all. Obviously I have to be careful not to come across as "bitter" but I have noticed similar to what was pointed out earlier in the thread, women outside of Ireland seem a lot more willing to give me (and some others) a chance. When I go abroad I get more Tinder matches in a couple of days than I get over several months in Ireland. One of my mates got a match and met for a lunch date within a couple of hours when we were in Poland. Never happens in Ireland. I should really go abroad more because even if I'm not after anything I feel a lot more confident after getting back. Hell even in London I'd get more attention and flirting than I'd get in a year of going out every weekend in Ireland.

I think I caused some of my own issues. I didn't make many friends til I was 15/16 and then I had a stupid habit of being "really into" one girl at a time when I knew I had no chance and ended up passing up opportunities and suddenly I was in my 20s and had never had a girlfriend. I've actually still never slept with a girl from my home county which I find amusing. :P

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Obviously I have to be careful not to come across as "bitter" but I have noticed similar to what was pointed out earlier in the thread, women outside of Ireland seem a lot more willing to give me (and some others) a chance.

I don't think it's about bitterness, although I suppose some people might be from bad experiences. However, every Irish guy I know who has lived in Ireland and abroad, say that dating in Ireland is difficult. Massive generalisations now.....

Irish women expect more from men, than what they themselves provide in dating. In other countries, many women will meet you halfway, but Irish women expect you to go the whole 9 yards yourself...

Which is fine when you're confident in your appearance, attitude etc. but it's a very steep learning curve to get to that point. Many Irish guys naturally get into that "zone", or they meet someone early in life and settle down pretty quickly.

When I go abroad I get more Tinder matches in a couple of days than I get over several months in Ireland.

Population is key with online apps. Ireland's population is rather small, compared to most other countries and the options are very slim.

I think I caused some of my own issues.

We all do... however, we also react to the environment we are in, and our interactions with the people we meet. While it's very important to take personal responsibility, don't assume 100% of it. It's healthy to assign some negatives to other people too.

I've actually still never slept with a girl from my home county which I find amusing. :P

I hadn't either until recently.

uck51js9zml2yt

Had a couple of short relationships in my 20's.
Met my now wife at 39. Married at 40. 10 years and 2 kids later

carrollsno1

23, look worse for wear for a lad of my age and what two short term relationships ive had i couldnt say that they were serious as they didnt last long had always wanted to travel and in the last relationship i had the thoughts of being tied to a ball and chain got to me and i hopped on the plane to nz, im gone from home just over a year now and due to the rural work and christchurch being a c#ckfest the women side of things were fairly slack im in oz now and im trying to adjust to being back in a well populated area at the minute a bad experience if isolation in the UK knocked my confidence a lot too ( i would have often went a month without a face to face conversation off farm and could easily have went a week without a proper conversation on farm even.).
I supppse id be good enough company i met a group of irish ex pats around the 50 mark a few weeks ago who said it made there night meeting me but f#ck it im too shy and i need to sort that. honestly id love to get back to the way i was when i was 18 and moved one county over for college and i didnt have a care in the world and thought i was away from home, but im at the other end of the world now i still havent a care in the world but i just lost my edge with the women and honestly don't know what to do to get it back, my uncle keeps telling me such and such is single out here etc but i just cant build up the confidence to do even try.
Has anyone any advice for me or been in a similar situation? By the way this situation doesnt get me down in any way anymore it did a bit back home when my best mate had a woman and i was third wheeling and i had the mother asking "any nice girls about last night" every subday morning too.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it's about bitterness, although I suppose some people might be from bad experiences. However, every Irish guy I know who has lived in Ireland and abroad, say that dating in Ireland is difficult. Massive generalisations now..... Irish women expect more from men, than what they themselves provide in dating. In other countries, many women will meet you halfway, but Irish women expect you to go the whole 9 yards yourself...

Which is fine when you're confident in your appearance, attitude etc. but it's a very steep learning curve to get to that point. Many Irish guys naturally get into that "zone", or they meet someone early in life and settle down pretty quickly.

I don't know what they expect tbh. Well, I do to some extent. It's really funny seeing mates at the start of relationships and seeing just how "Be yourself" is the biggest BS advice of all time. :pac:

Population is key with online apps. Ireland's population is rather small, compared to most other countries and the options are very slim.

It's not just down to that, I'll swipe right on literally 10 thousand in Ireland and will get single digit matches. Within a day of being elsewhere (including small cities, like smaller than Cork) I'll be chatting to a few. I'll send hundreds of messages on other sites and get maybe 5 replies and most of them will be to say they know me or someone I know.

We all do... however, we also react to the environment we are in, and our interactions with the people we meet. While it's very important to take personal responsibility, don't assume 100% of it. It's healthy to assign some negatives to other people too.

Some people it's all their own fault and some it's everyone else's fault, I'll let you guess which group is which. :P I'm under no illusions about myself, I'm fat and bald and not particularly good-looking. Although one thing I've learned is that the "Men are superficial, women aren't" thing is one of the biggest lies going. I unfortunately believed it for a very long time.

Wibbs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Just never happened for me.

I get the feeling like dating is a skill not unlike how small children learn the fundamentals of human interaction by being among others in the same boat at an early age.

It is a skill IMHO. We have the basic potentials in socialisation out of the box and like anything else some will be better at it than others, but how adept or comfortable we are as adults is mostly down to practice. This usually happens, or the basic childhood stuff is built upon in adolescence. If someone misses this for whatever reason then adult social stuff can be bloody difficult. If you're "practicing" at 15 and being a bit awkward even daft, it's pretty much expected of you. You're 15. Just like parents don't expect their baby to start running before they got crawling and falling down a lot down first. Now at 25 or 30... Someone who misses this socialisation period can come across as a socially awkward adult, who is crawling and falling down a lot while their peers are walking. I have found that people tend to be quite unsympathetic to men and women like that. They can get the "oh he/she's odd" and that's their label.

This goes double for men in the romantic sphere. Because as I noted before men are supposed to be a) the active ones, or at least know when to be active and b) socially aware enough to understand social and romantic signals. Which makes good sense. Women are more physically vulnerable so someone who doesn't seem to get social cues and comes across as a "bit off" is an understandable red flag. Men are going to be less threatened by that and shyness can even be seen as a positive trait in women and her being passive is less an issue anyway.

Maybe the experiences of men who go off abroad and find far more success might simply be down to the fact that being outside your country gives them more confidence and freedom to practice that phase they missed out on. Language barriers can help here because if two people aren't fluent in each other's lingo there's already an awkwardness in the mix, but an "acceptable" one and one that can mask others. There's also the novelty factor going on. And the meme of "foreign women are [insert positive traits here] and our women are [insert negative traits here]" thing which adds to confidence and is also heavy on the selection bias. EG Irish guy gets the bums rush from Irish woman, his goto answer might be "that's Irish women for you", whereas if he thinks that say Polish women are "nicer" he'll see the same interaction as an outlier and that's not what Polish women are generally like.

Plus I might be inclined to believe that whole foreign women thing if I hadn't personally heard so many blokes from so many countries say the exact same thing. I've heard Italians say it, Spaniards, Poles, Russians, Nigerians, Afghans, Americans, Brits, Brazilians, Chinese and so forth. It's right up there with "our politicians are all crooks" as a cultural thing(though I would be more inclined to believe the latter

). I've noted women don't tend to buy into this nearly so much, at least vocally.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people it's all their own fault and some it's everyone else's fault, I'll let you guess which group is which. :P I'm under no illusions about myself, I'm fat and bald and not particularly good-looking. Although one thing I've learned is that the "Men are superficial, women aren't" thing is one of the biggest lies going. I unfortunately believed it for a very long time.

I have a shaking disorder, I'm very skinny, 192 cm tall, bad teeth, and a smoker. A lot of that is down to my life choices, and the consequences for living different lifestyles.... and I knew when I was doing it, that there would be a price. And yet, I'm still quite successful in dating (abroad). Different cultures have different ideas of what's both acceptable and desirable.

I'm also very charming, very aware of emotional states, extremely well-read on most issues that women find interesting, and I've traveled most of the East.

I find that younger Irish women find the "image" of something to be far more important that the reality of something, whereas Irish women in their 30s+, tend to be more forgiving. Still, I don't find most Irish women in their 30s to be attractive (personality/appearance) compared with other nationalities in their 30s.

And I'd say everyone is superficial to a degree. I lean towards attractive women ten years or more younger than me. Most of that is their appearance, and my physical desire. It's normal, and I find most people are the same. They just claim otherwise.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

I've noted women don't tend to buy into this nearly so much, at least vocally.

Can you expand on that? I don't quite get your meaning..

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you expand on that? I don't quite get your meaning..

You don't tend to hear women say "foreign men are [insert positive traits here] and our men are [insert negative traits here]" nearly so much, or at least I've never heard it to nearly the same degree or with the same level of detail that I've heard it from men from different countries. Now given that men having a preference for and going out with "foreign" women are obviously finding such women, but like I say I've heard very few women doing the same, at least in Ireland and Europe in general. I did see it back in the 90's where women from the former Soviet states were actively looking for men from outside of that, but that was more down to more choice and economics.

In the end men and women overwhelmingly tend to end up with partners from the same cultural, economic and geographical background. Even in more multicultural nations that still tends to hold true.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

You don't tend to hear women say "foreign men are [insert positive traits here] and our men are [insert negative traits here]" nearly so much, or at least I've never heard it to nearly the same degree or with the same level of detail that I've heard it from men from different countries. Now given that men having a preference for and going out with "foreign" women are obviously finding such women, but like I say I've heard very few women doing the same, at least in Ireland and Europe in general. I did see it back in the 90's where women from the former Soviet states were actively looking for men from outside of that, but that was more down to more choice and economics.

In the end men and women overwhelmingly tend to end up with partners from the same cultural, economic and geographical background. Even in more multicultural nations that still tends to hold true.

I'm a bit younger than you and hear it constantly from women. That and the black gangbang fetish.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm a bit younger than you and hear it constantly from women.

Make me feel old ya prick. :mad:

:D Maybe it is a generational thing B? Sounds like it. I never heard it myself and I'd know and have known a fair few women younger than me. Sure I heard the "oh I like a bit of Italian" kinda thing with women mates having a chat, but it was more a jokey conversational thing than anything reflected in choices they actively made. Whereas I have known a fair percentage of men who actively sought relationships with non Irish women and one Spanish guy who "avoided" Spanish women and two Italian lads who actively preferred non Italian women, one was mad into Irish Women™. Small sample group to be fair.

That and the black gangbang fetish.

ehhh. Really? Yep, I'm old, or you have way more interesting women mates.

professore

It's DEFINITELY easier with non Irish women. Most DEFINITELY not confirmation bias. An average Irish woman would NEVER give you any signals she's interested unless you are in the top 5% in her head. Also many are very puritanical and ultra sensitive and have no idea how to flirt. Or maybe that's just because they aren't attracted, as a hot foreign man can say anything to them. I guess you are attracted to difference, apparently gingers are swimming in women in Italy and Spain.

Literally had more flirting in half an hour with a Spanish woman recently than I've had in my whole life with Irish women. And it was only fun as I'm married to a Belgian woman. Very sad.

Faith+1

33 and never had one OP. Never had a problem chatting/picking up girls but never went beyond a few dates. Tbh I'm not really interested in giving my time to a girl and enjoy doing my own thing.

Does that make me weird in the convential sense....probably. Do I care? Nope.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

You don't tend to hear women say "foreign men are [insert positive traits here] and our men are [insert negative traits here]" nearly so much, or at least I've never heard it to nearly the same degree or with the same level of detail that I've heard it from men from different countries. Now given that men having a preference for and going out with "foreign" women are obviously finding such women, but like I say I've heard very few women doing the same, at least in Ireland and Europe in general. I did see it back in the 90's where women from the former Soviet states were actively looking for men from outside of that, but that was more down to more choice and economics.

TBH, most of my male friends are expats, so I don't really know too many guy who have stayed at home all the time. However, the vast majority of my friends are female.... and I'd have to disagree with you. Most women I know who have dated with, at least, one foreigner will use that as a basis of comparison against their local guys... with the local guys coming up short.

In the end men and women overwhelmingly tend to end up with partners from the same cultural, economic and geographical background. Even in more multicultural nations that still tends to hold true.

Didn't know that. I'd assumed it but didn't know it. I'm rather glad in this instance to be a minority then. (whenever I do decide to settle down with someone):D

[Deleted User]

Also on the confidence/language thing, I was talking about matches on Tinder using the exact same photos and it seems non-Irish ladies must have much lower standards. Pretty sure I don't look exotic for anywhere in Europe, I could pass for anywhere more than 50 miles from the Med. :P

[Deleted User]

Faith+1 wrote: »

Does that make me weird in the convential sense....probably. Do I care? Nope.

Fifty years ago? Almost definitely (although bachelors were always a thing, but rarely really mentioned).

Now, though, I'm not so sure. I know quite a few people of both genders who haven't settled down with someone (marriage or serious relationship) and they're in their late 30s/40s. Admittedly, most are married to their careers, or passions (sports, traveling, etc) but still... and then there's a developing culture where it's acceptable to be single. Many Asian countries, like Japan, have actually turned hostile towards formal relationships, and I could see similar happening in parts of Europe (considering the rise of feminism, or inequalities in marriage).

So, not weird. Not the average, but hardly weird.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Pug160

Yeah I'm in this category. I've always been self conscious about it but when I watched a clip of Jordan Peterson a while back it really hit home. I was rather confused and somewhat angry under the surface, especially during my 20s (I'm 33 now) but that changed to apathy with no underlying malice whatsoever. There is regret and annoyance but no actual animosity towards the opposite sex any more. It has been that way for at least a couple of years. I understand that Peterson is a rather controversial figure and seems to (at the very least) have some questionable views on other topics - but he struck such a profound chord with me it lead to me finally going to see a psychologist and genuinely digging deep and asking serious questions of myself.

The message I got was that while life can be painful and cynical and harsh, you should still enjoy it anyway, despite all of that. A lot of people, myself included, are extremely tough on themselves and that appears to be a trait very common in people in general. It's just that some people have it in a really extreme way. I'm neurotic and never really socialised with women until very recently, and along with a few other factors there was probably just some kind of perfect storm. Far too much to mention but it needs to be put to the back of my mind as it essentially amounts to scapegoating and procrastination. So the question is, do you want to read the cold hard truth and accept the cold hard truth but try anyway. For me it's a yes. But the fact that humans are built to be so selfish and ruthless in some regards is just a reminder of the reality. It's there for a reason.

There does appear to be a small minority of men who genuinely like being single by choice. That has to be acknowledged as well. The difference with them and someone with issues is that they are genuinely happy and still have relationships of some sort with women. And they can very much be moral about it as well. As hard as that might be to imagine for some. The fact is, if it really was THAT tough and harsh, no one would even bother trying. Yet they do. And a lot of people clearly get something meaningful and satisfying out of it.