nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

When did "Liberal" become a bad word?

TheIrishGrover

In the US (And increasingly here) the term "Liberal" is bandied about as a bad word. As if it is a bad thing to be a "Liberal". I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT US PARTIES: Democrat and Republican. I'm talking about liberal thinking versus conservative thinking.

In my opinion (Which is of value only to me and nobody else. Just the same as other's opinions) conservative thinking is about maintaining the current situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some think maybe some things need to be rolled back.

But liberal thinking is what progresses us as a people. Ireland would originally have been considered a very conservative country (especially in relation to mainland Europe) and is still, in many ways still considered so.

But here's the thing: Liberal thinking gave women the vote; allowed equal rights for people regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation (In theory anyway); the ability for people to marry who they want; freed the slaves; improved living standards etc....

I mean what is "wrong" about that? Again, I am NOT talking US Party politics as, in the US, many of these acts were implemented under Republican legislation.

Again, in my OPINION ONLY, staying put, not thinking outside the box is, while not "wrong", not advancing us as a people. Is not opening us up to new ways of thinking.

Now, I know this thread is probably going to descend into name calling and general nastiness on both sides but can someone explain it to me why liberalism is "wrong" in their eyes?

And please PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is just as valid and important to them as yours is to you.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

TheIrishGrover

And so it begins.

Well, we got to 31 posts and 3 pages. About the most we could expect

Will I Am Not

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

And please PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is just as valid and important to them as yours is to you.

That’s the part that the modern day “liberal” has a problem with. There’s nothing wrong with being liberal, it’s the right way to be. When liberal is used disparagingly, it’s directed at the agenda pushing, no time for a time else’s opinion “liberals”

Mutant z

GingerLily wrote: »

And liberals and sick of being controlled by outdated and socially regressive laws which conservatives are fighting to keep. Freedom of speech is one thing, but fighting for laws that restrict others liberty is another.

And just what laws would they be and you cant just disregard freedom of speech like that just because it suits you must realise in a democracy everyone is entitled to their views and rightly so if you disagree with that then you should move to a country with a dctatorship like North Korea.

Chaos Tourist

Hector Savage wrote: »

Dave Rubin explains it well

Dave Rubin thought he was part of the left at some point?

Centrist - liberal more like.

Irish Guitarist

A few years ago people with liberal ideas would view a lot of what's considered liberal today as extremism.

As an example I replied to a thread about euthanasia a couple of months ago and said euthanasia should be allowed if someone is dying from a terminal illness but that not just anyone should be able to go a hospital and ask to have their life ended. I would have considered this fairly liberal but apparently I'm a terrible bastard because I think people with mental health problems shouldn't just be able to get a lethal injection from a doctor.

Then there's all this crap about the 'gender spectrum'. Ten or so years ago I would have considered myself fairly liberal but there's no way I'm going to buy into this nonsense. Nor am I going to start buying into all this crap about children being transgender at the age of two or three.

Arytonblue

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

People saying the modern mainstream left have abandoned their true purpose obviously missed out on the past 50 years in Europe where mainstream centre left parties built a platform for moderate social democracy and socially liberal attitudes towards feminism, equal rights and treatment of minorities etc. This isn't new. The groups they focus on may change, and some causes are newer than others but why with all this faux revisionism of what the 'left' and 'liberals' are all about? By all means critique these positions, be a conservative, be a socialist, an anarchist, whatever. I just really can't this American styled absolutism and this bizarre persecution complex some people have towards these issues.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Americans twisted the meaning of the word liberal and now we are stupid enough to copy them.

Snickers Man

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s,

Damn you, Aryton! Beat me to it!!

Franz Von Peppercorn

Here is an example of some of the rhetoric:

What just access means in terms of positive policy is that institutions that are the gatekeepers to the public have a fiduciary responsibility to award access based on the merit of ideas and thinkers. To award space in a campus lecture hall to someone like Peterson who says that feminists “have an unconscious wish for brutal male domination,” or to give time on a television news show to someone like Coulter who asserts that in an ideal world all Americans would convert to Christianity, or to interview a D-list actor like Jenny McCarthy about her view that actual scientists are wrong about the public health benefits of vaccines is not to display admirable intellectual open-mindedness. It is to take a positive stand that these views are within the realm of defensible rational discourse, and that these people are worth taking seriously as thinkers.

Neither is true: These views are specious, and those who espouse them are, at best, ignorant, at worst, sophists. The invincibly ignorant and the intellectual huckster have every right to express their opinions, but their right to free speech is not the right to an audience.

From a NYT opinion piece ( where he misrepresents the claims of Charles Murray and Peterson).

I am not sure who he thinks should police these gates, or how it is to be policed ( all the internet, all the radio stations, all private newspapers, and all private TV stations?) but he certainly believes that free speech should be policed. And clearly, by people like him.

The claim that the right to free speech isn't a right to an audience seems spurious to me, not much point seeking your mind in the comfort of your own house, totalitarian States gave you that - provided you could trust your family and were not bugged.

He quotes Marcuse there, from my Marxist days I recognise him as a Marxist and Stalinist (the two are not necessarily the same), and his piece on Repressive Tolerance, which you can read here is the forerunner of these ideas.

https://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/60spubs/65repressivetolerance.htm

In reality the American left has been strongly influenced by Marcuse, to its detriment and the detriment of society.

super_furry

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

I don't think I could agree with this anymore. There's a big agenda being pushed on After Hours by people who have submerged themselves in online American conservative communities and who try to draw false parallels between what people in the US are telling them is happening there, to Irish life, where no such parallels exists.

So desperate are they for a bogeyman - or bogeywoman - that you have the ridiculous situation where you have inconsequential people like Louise O'Neill attracting topics where there are literally thousands of posts acting as if she's the Taoiseach instead of a small-time columnist.

fxotoole

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

In the US (And increasingly here) the term "Liberal" is bandied about as a bad word. As if it is a bad thing to be a "Liberal". I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT US PARTIES: Democrat and Republican. I'm talking about liberal thinking versus conservative thinking.

In my opinion (Which is of value only to me and nobody else. Just the same as other's opinions) conservative thinking is about maintaining the current situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some think maybe some things need to be rolled back.

But liberal thinking is what progresses us as a people. Ireland would originally have been considered a very conservative country (especially in relation to mainland Europe) and is still, in many ways still considered so.

But here's the thing: Liberal thinking gave women the vote; allowed equal rights for people regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation (In theory anyway); the ability for people to marry who they want; freed the slaves; improved living standards etc....

I mean what is "wrong" about that? Again, I am NOT talking US Party politics as, in the US, many of these acts were implemented under Republican legislation.

Again, in my OPINION ONLY, staying put, not thinking outside the box is, while not "wrong", not advancing us as a people. Is not opening us up to new ways of thinking.

Now, I know this thread is probably going to descend into name calling and general nastiness on both sides but can someone explain it to me why liberalism is "wrong" in their eyes?

And please PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is just as valid and important to them as yours is to you.

OP I completely agree. Although when you say that conservative thinking is about maintining the status quo, I would argue that it is actually about reverting back to past. Conservative thinking often looks back on the past with rose tinted glasses. For example, older conservative people saying that times were simpler back in their heyday.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

Because we import the left, we import the right. Quite a few posters here will talk about historical "white privilege" in Ireland, or ( if I remember a recent post) that those of us who are "cis and white" should opt out of some debate or other. You can only talk about historical white privilege with regards to Ireland if you have never read a history book about Ireland, or bothered in fact to wonder who all those emaciated statues you see about the place are. Generally this is an upper middle class position, because well, the situation wasn't too bad for the upper middle classes in Ireland under the British, even Catholics.

People saying the modern mainstream left have abandoned their true purpose obviously missed out on the past 50 years in Europe where mainstream centre left parties built a platform for moderate social democracy and socially liberal attitudes towards feminism, equal rights and treatment of minorities etc. This isn't new. The groups they focus on may change, and some causes are newer than others but why with all this faux revisionism of what the 'left' and 'liberals' are all about? By all means critique these positions, be a conservative, be a socialist, an anarchist, whatever. I just really can't this American styled absolutism and this bizarre persecution complex some people have towards these issues.

The mainstream labour left is great, but it is mostly dead in Europe and the US. The Democratic Party is barely the party of Labour any more if it ever was, and the once create Labour parties of much of Europe are dead. Italy used to be 30% communist.

duckofdeath

I think it's because freedom of speech has been replaced with freedom of shouting on the Internet. It's easy to fill the Internet ether with a lie and eventually people in the target demographic accepts the lie even though they know better. Keep it up long enough, you can base everything you do on lies because at some point it's all about "them vs us".

Ronaldinho

For me, when the word became an oxymoron

freedominacup

Mutant z wrote: »

Liberal certainly is not a bad word the problem is certain folks idea of what a liberal is supposed to be for them its those who share their world view and anyone who doesn't share it are all bigots. Funny enough they claim to be liberal but are in favour of censorship which is about as illiberal as it gets.

This. A true liberal is the person who hates you, everything you stand for, and every political view you hold but is also the person you can absolutely rely on to stand beside you when they come to shut you down. They've almost certainly got a "fcuk your safe space" t-shirt in their wardrobe somewhere.

It's the other self declared "liberals" who believe in no platforming, safe spaces etc that are the problem. If your argument is as self evidently correct as you think then you should have no difficulty defending your position in any forum.

Boom_Bap

My missus is waaaayyy to liberal with the jam when putting it on toast. I'd be more conservative with the volume of jam to toast ratio.

fxotoole

Omackeral wrote: »

I don't know what that is but I want it now. Sounds fcuking delicious.

Milky toast? Sounds phucking rank

kuntboy

GingerLily wrote: »

And liberals and sick of being controlled by outdated and socially regressive laws which conservatives are fighting to keep. Freedom of speech is one thing, but fighting for laws that restrict others liberty is another.

Liberals don't get to set the narrative, though they like to think they do. Their propaganda has infected western universities and MSM so much they now resemble the USSR. You'll notice how they are too cowardly to go preach in countries that need real reform, they just pick on easy targets in the conservative west. They forget that their bleeding heart only exists because the conservatives keep them.

super_furry

kuntboy wrote: »

Liberals don't get to set the narrative, though they like to think they do. Their propaganda has infected western universities and MSM so much they now resemble the USSR.

How do Irish universities and RTE/TV3/The Indo resemble the USSR?

Ubbquittious

About 2015

touts

Equality and fair treatment are good but liberal became a bad word when you pushed it too far.

For example:

But the moment criminals had more rights than victims you pushed it too far.
When taxpayer funded welfare became a viable career choice rather than a safety net you pushed it too far.
When "positive descriminate" made it ok to punish the white males of today because of the sons of the white males of yesterday you pushed it too far.
When the taxpayers who fund the public health system were called parasites on that system for also having private health insurance you pushed it too far.

RIGOLO

Conservatives tend to look on a liberal and will say I think you are wrong.
Nowadays a liberal will look at a conservative and say I think your evil.
It gets the discussion off to a bad start from the get go.

Chaos Tourist

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

People saying the modern mainstream left have abandoned their true purpose obviously missed out on the past 50 years in Europe where mainstream centre left parties built a platform for moderate social democracy and socially liberal attitudes towards feminism, equal rights and treatment of minorities etc. This isn't new. The groups they focus on may change, and some causes are newer than others but why with all this faux revisionism of what the 'left' and 'liberals' are all about? By all means critique these positions, be a conservative, be a socialist, an anarchist, whatever. I just really can't this American styled absolutism and this bizarre persecution complex some people have towards these issues.

European social democracy has been in retreat since the seventies and eighties and now we have all these populist parties springing up.

Here is Walter Michaels take on some of it.
https://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity

Off Guardian article
https://off-guardian.org/2017/01/07/social-democracy-and-the-centre-left-decline-and-fall/

RIGOLO

Ronaldinho wrote: »

For me, when the word became an oxymoron

Thats a keeper. Well said.

Cupcake_Crisis

I’d consider myself very liberal, always have been, I come from a fairly liberal family. I think liberal thinking is vitally important to a progressive society. If someone called me liberal I wouldn’t take it as in insult in the slightest, it’s a descriptor.

However, as with almost every walk of life, it’s the crazies that scream the loudest. For me, being liberal means tolerant of many different mindsets or ways of life even when they’re polar opposite to your own and I do think that has gotten lost in translation somewhere along the line.

ArchXStanton

When it became retarded...hence why I don't lean in that direction anymore

odyssey06

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

In my opinion (Which is of value only to me and nobody else. Just the same as other's opinions) conservative thinking is about maintaining the current situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some think maybe some things need to be rolled back.
But liberal thinking is what progresses us as a people. Ireland would originally have been considered a very conservative country (especially in relation to mainland Europe) and is still, in many ways still considered so.
But here's the thing: Liberal thinking gave women the vote; allowed equal rights for people regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation (In theory anyway); the ability for people to marry who they want; freed the slaves; improved living standards etc....

By that standard did liberal thinking also give us the guillotine and the terror of the french revolution, the USSR and the gulag, the cultural revolution and all those tens of millions of deaths?

Conservatism has nothing to do with preserving the status quo just for the sake of it. Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan were conservatives, when they took power they set about changing the domestic and Cold War status quo they inherited, using new thinking and new economic approaches.

It was not liberalism that freed the slaves, or improved living standards.
I don't see how Lincoln's approach to slavery could be described as liberal, given that when he took office his approach was to prevent it from spreading further, so that over time it would gradually be superseded and go extinct. It was only in response to the evolving conditions of the civil war that he took more expansive steps. Which seems like a rather conservative thing to do.

Usually when 'Liberal' is used as an insult it's because of a position like affirmative action, or people who favour free speech but only for opinions they agree with, or who oppose capital punishment but support abortion, or who seems to want to give criminals more rights but never their victims.
Someone who thinks the solution to every problem is a new law or more money or more powers for the state and doesn't seem to concern themselves with where the money is coming from.

More typically in today's world, the terminology in the US would be that liberals would see the state \ big government as the engine of progress and the means to resolve social ills, whereas for conservatives the state should enable and defend and allow people to get on with what they want to do.

I think ultimately the difference in vision is that conservatives are comparing today to the past and to other countries, whereas liberals are comparing today to a utopian vision \ vision of the future.

So conservatives tend to be more accepting of current ills that they think have always been there, and tend to be cautious about taking steps to fix these because of the risk that it could go horribly wrong, have unpredictable consequences or just have no effect.

[Deleted User]

super_furry wrote: »

How do Irish universities and RTE/TV3/The Indo resemble the USSR?

Remember about 4 or 5 years ago RTE was hacked by some mad feckers from Eastern Europe? It went on for about ten minutes just saying Irish Ukranians, not Russians . Bizarre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgAuXffjIu8

And here's a dope remix of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BUxGMbiMps

megaten

Isn't the current US style usage just a result of republicans feeling like they need a word for people who don't define themselves as conservative?

marieholmfan

Hector Savage wrote: »

Dave Rubin explains it well

Got a transcript?

Right wing ideas always seem to be presented on video.