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When did "Liberal" become a bad word?

TheIrishGrover

In the US (And increasingly here) the term "Liberal" is bandied about as a bad word. As if it is a bad thing to be a "Liberal". I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT US PARTIES: Democrat and Republican. I'm talking about liberal thinking versus conservative thinking.

In my opinion (Which is of value only to me and nobody else. Just the same as other's opinions) conservative thinking is about maintaining the current situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some think maybe some things need to be rolled back.

But liberal thinking is what progresses us as a people. Ireland would originally have been considered a very conservative country (especially in relation to mainland Europe) and is still, in many ways still considered so.

But here's the thing: Liberal thinking gave women the vote; allowed equal rights for people regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation (In theory anyway); the ability for people to marry who they want; freed the slaves; improved living standards etc....

I mean what is "wrong" about that? Again, I am NOT talking US Party politics as, in the US, many of these acts were implemented under Republican legislation.

Again, in my OPINION ONLY, staying put, not thinking outside the box is, while not "wrong", not advancing us as a people. Is not opening us up to new ways of thinking.

Now, I know this thread is probably going to descend into name calling and general nastiness on both sides but can someone explain it to me why liberalism is "wrong" in their eyes?

And please PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is just as valid and important to them as yours is to you.

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duckofdeath

I think it's because freedom of speech has been replaced with freedom of shouting on the Internet. It's easy to fill the Internet ether with a lie and eventually people in the target demographic accepts the lie even though they know better. Keep it up long enough, you can base everything you do on lies because at some point it's all about "them vs us".

Franz Von Peppercorn

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

Because we import the left, we import the right. Quite a few posters here will talk about historical "white privilege" in Ireland, or ( if I remember a recent post) that those of us who are "cis and white" should opt out of some debate or other. You can only talk about historical white privilege with regards to Ireland if you have never read a history book about Ireland, or bothered in fact to wonder who all those emaciated statues you see about the place are. Generally this is an upper middle class position, because well, the situation wasn't too bad for the upper middle classes in Ireland under the British, even Catholics.

People saying the modern mainstream left have abandoned their true purpose obviously missed out on the past 50 years in Europe where mainstream centre left parties built a platform for moderate social democracy and socially liberal attitudes towards feminism, equal rights and treatment of minorities etc. This isn't new. The groups they focus on may change, and some causes are newer than others but why with all this faux revisionism of what the 'left' and 'liberals' are all about? By all means critique these positions, be a conservative, be a socialist, an anarchist, whatever. I just really can't this American styled absolutism and this bizarre persecution complex some people have towards these issues.

The mainstream labour left is great, but it is mostly dead in Europe and the US. The Democratic Party is barely the party of Labour any more if it ever was, and the once create Labour parties of much of Europe are dead. Italy used to be 30% communist.

fxotoole

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

In the US (And increasingly here) the term "Liberal" is bandied about as a bad word. As if it is a bad thing to be a "Liberal". I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT US PARTIES: Democrat and Republican. I'm talking about liberal thinking versus conservative thinking.

In my opinion (Which is of value only to me and nobody else. Just the same as other's opinions) conservative thinking is about maintaining the current situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some think maybe some things need to be rolled back.

But liberal thinking is what progresses us as a people. Ireland would originally have been considered a very conservative country (especially in relation to mainland Europe) and is still, in many ways still considered so.

But here's the thing: Liberal thinking gave women the vote; allowed equal rights for people regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation (In theory anyway); the ability for people to marry who they want; freed the slaves; improved living standards etc....

I mean what is "wrong" about that? Again, I am NOT talking US Party politics as, in the US, many of these acts were implemented under Republican legislation.

Again, in my OPINION ONLY, staying put, not thinking outside the box is, while not "wrong", not advancing us as a people. Is not opening us up to new ways of thinking.

Now, I know this thread is probably going to descend into name calling and general nastiness on both sides but can someone explain it to me why liberalism is "wrong" in their eyes?

And please PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is just as valid and important to them as yours is to you.

OP I completely agree. Although when you say that conservative thinking is about maintining the status quo, I would argue that it is actually about reverting back to past. Conservative thinking often looks back on the past with rose tinted glasses. For example, older conservative people saying that times were simpler back in their heyday.

super_furry

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

I don't think I could agree with this anymore. There's a big agenda being pushed on After Hours by people who have submerged themselves in online American conservative communities and who try to draw false parallels between what people in the US are telling them is happening there, to Irish life, where no such parallels exists.

So desperate are they for a bogeyman - or bogeywoman - that you have the ridiculous situation where you have inconsequential people like Louise O'Neill attracting topics where there are literally thousands of posts acting as if she's the Taoiseach instead of a small-time columnist.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Here is an example of some of the rhetoric:

What just access means in terms of positive policy is that institutions that are the gatekeepers to the public have a fiduciary responsibility to award access based on the merit of ideas and thinkers. To award space in a campus lecture hall to someone like Peterson who says that feminists “have an unconscious wish for brutal male domination,” or to give time on a television news show to someone like Coulter who asserts that in an ideal world all Americans would convert to Christianity, or to interview a D-list actor like Jenny McCarthy about her view that actual scientists are wrong about the public health benefits of vaccines is not to display admirable intellectual open-mindedness. It is to take a positive stand that these views are within the realm of defensible rational discourse, and that these people are worth taking seriously as thinkers.

Neither is true: These views are specious, and those who espouse them are, at best, ignorant, at worst, sophists. The invincibly ignorant and the intellectual huckster have every right to express their opinions, but their right to free speech is not the right to an audience.

From a NYT opinion piece ( where he misrepresents the claims of Charles Murray and Peterson).

I am not sure who he thinks should police these gates, or how it is to be policed ( all the internet, all the radio stations, all private newspapers, and all private TV stations?) but he certainly believes that free speech should be policed. And clearly, by people like him.

The claim that the right to free speech isn't a right to an audience seems spurious to me, not much point seeking your mind in the comfort of your own house, totalitarian States gave you that - provided you could trust your family and were not bugged.

He quotes Marcuse there, from my Marxist days I recognise him as a Marxist and Stalinist (the two are not necessarily the same), and his piece on Repressive Tolerance, which you can read here is the forerunner of these ideas.

https://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/60spubs/65repressivetolerance.htm

In reality the American left has been strongly influenced by Marcuse, to its detriment and the detriment of society.

Snickers Man

Arytonblue wrote: »

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s,

Damn you, Aryton! Beat me to it!!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Americans twisted the meaning of the word liberal and now we are stupid enough to copy them.

Arytonblue

Almost all of these talking points are directly imported from a never ending, inane 'culture war' from the US of A, a country that hasn't been able to have a sane political dialogue since the 1960s, and its a 'war' that mostly seems to take place on Reddit and Youtube. Irish people on an Irish messageboard posting of video of serial troll of the Alt right Dave Rubin talking his usual, I didn't truly leave the 'left', the 'left' left me twaddle in a video by feckin PragerU, a fake university YouTube channel that supports climate change denial, christian conservatism, bull**** pseudoscience and outright conspiracy theories. I mean, really, why? None of this has any relation to modern Irish or even European politics. And it just won't stop coming up on AH specifically.

People saying the modern mainstream left have abandoned their true purpose obviously missed out on the past 50 years in Europe where mainstream centre left parties built a platform for moderate social democracy and socially liberal attitudes towards feminism, equal rights and treatment of minorities etc. This isn't new. The groups they focus on may change, and some causes are newer than others but why with all this faux revisionism of what the 'left' and 'liberals' are all about? By all means critique these positions, be a conservative, be a socialist, an anarchist, whatever. I just really can't this American styled absolutism and this bizarre persecution complex some people have towards these issues.

Irish Guitarist

A few years ago people with liberal ideas would view a lot of what's considered liberal today as extremism.

As an example I replied to a thread about euthanasia a couple of months ago and said euthanasia should be allowed if someone is dying from a terminal illness but that not just anyone should be able to go a hospital and ask to have their life ended. I would have considered this fairly liberal but apparently I'm a terrible bastard because I think people with mental health problems shouldn't just be able to get a lethal injection from a doctor.

Then there's all this crap about the 'gender spectrum'. Ten or so years ago I would have considered myself fairly liberal but there's no way I'm going to buy into this nonsense. Nor am I going to start buying into all this crap about children being transgender at the age of two or three.

Chaos Tourist

Hector Savage wrote: »

Dave Rubin explains it well

Dave Rubin thought he was part of the left at some point?

Centrist - liberal more like.

Mutant z

GingerLily wrote: »

And liberals and sick of being controlled by outdated and socially regressive laws which conservatives are fighting to keep. Freedom of speech is one thing, but fighting for laws that restrict others liberty is another.

And just what laws would they be and you cant just disregard freedom of speech like that just because it suits you must realise in a democracy everyone is entitled to their views and rightly so if you disagree with that then you should move to a country with a dctatorship like North Korea.

Will I Am Not

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

And please PLEASE try to keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is just as valid and important to them as yours is to you.

That’s the part that the modern day “liberal” has a problem with. There’s nothing wrong with being liberal, it’s the right way to be. When liberal is used disparagingly, it’s directed at the agenda pushing, no time for a time else’s opinion “liberals”

TheIrishGrover

And so it begins.

Well, we got to 31 posts and 3 pages. About the most we could expect

Sponge25

When they start acting like treacherous lunatics.

TheIrishGrover

So, the general consensus (And one I agree with) is that it's not so much liberal thinking as opposed to the current trend for militant liberals to basically demonize those that do not share their opinions. That is pretty much what I thought the outcome would be. It's a trend that is prevalent on both/all sides of the argument. I detest militant liberals who bash those who disagree with them just as much as I detest militant conservatives who bash those who disagree with them.

Unfortunately so much of this is tied up with politics that it is hard to untangle them and the so-called debates descend into name calling and toxic arguments.

As stated, I would consider myself a liberal but certainly not an extremist. In my opinion ANY extremism is narrow-minded and bigoted. Unfortunately in the current climate it seems that there is very little middle ground. I know that media only reports extremes but you don't need to check out media outlets to see how nasty these debates turn, even here in Ireland and how quickly. It is a pity. Ah well.

GingerLily

kuntboy wrote: »

Because conservatives are sick of being told what to think and labelled and reviled if they disagree.

And liberals and sick of being controlled by outdated and socially regressive laws which conservatives are fighting to keep. Freedom of speech is one thing, but fighting for laws that restrict others liberty is another.

RIGOLO

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I
But liberal thinking is what progresses us as a people. Ireland would originally have been considered a very conservative country (especially in relation to mainland Europe) and is still, in many ways still considered so.

But here's the thing: Liberal thinking gave women the vote; allowed equal rights for people regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation (In theory anyway); the ability for people to marry who they want; freed the slaves; improved living standards etc....

Good topic.
Its not black and white, The Liberal Party were the party in power for much of the Womens suffragette movement and inflicted much of the pain on them. Whilst it was the conservative party that was in power when the most compreshensive age related womens vote bills were passed.
So its not always clear who was and wasnt or is and isnt a liberal.
It comes down to how well you know your history and also what aspect your talking about. Theres been plenty liberal thinking policys put thru by conservative governments.
If you go stateside then you can consider the rise of Reagan and Nixon before him as a backlash of ordinary moderates against what could be seen as rising liberal militaincy.

Personally I think like all terms they become bad words when they lose their meaning and are abused by people who might claime to be a liberal but are not .

JohnMc1

Violet Scruffy Minibus wrote: »

Liberal used to mean tolerant, broad minded and accepting of those whose opinion differs from yours.

Nowadays, many of those who think of themselves as liberals, are actually the most aggressive in defence of their views and determined to shape society according to their opinions and their ideas. They have no time for anyone who has what they regard as conservative opinions, and think it's okay to belittle them and jeer at them and try to suppress their right to have an opinion, express their beliefs etc..

Those people are actually the very opposite of liberal and are actually intolerant dictators.

The sad irony of this is that these very same people will turn around and call Conservatives Nazis and fascists. The only Nazis and Fascists around are themselves.

super_furry

Not sure it has outside of places like After Hours or Voat where there's a very specific group of people trying to push an agenda.

CaptainPants

Yeah Id imagine its something like French toast with Maple Syrup, mmm.

Id just means a spineless person who agrees with whoever they happens to be talking to or tries to triangulate between them. "Ah now in fairness lads..."

[Deleted User]

CaptainPants wrote: »

To far-lefties it means a centrist milquetoast whose opinions aren't strong enough, and are thus basically an apologist for the right. It a curse-word to them too.

I don't know what that is but I want it now. Sounds fcuking delicious.

[Deleted User]

Extreme Left and Extreme Right are two sides of the same coin. Each are probably responsible for pushing much of their target demographic away. Also, Right Wing has become a filthy term just as much as Liberal has.

kuntboy

Because conservatives are sick of being told what to think and labelled and reviled if they disagree. They're sick of the propaganda and they ain't fukcing buying it. Most of the world outside the west is watching from a distance and they aint buying it either

CaptainPants

Its one of those words that means different things to different people:

To U.S. conservatives it means 'left winger'. And is basically a curse-word.

To far-lefties it means a centrist milquetoast whose opinions aren't strong enough, and are thus basically an apologist for the right. It a curse-word to them too.

In Europe it usually means a centrist of some sort, and is not a curse word.

To me it means anybody who is willing to engage in rational debate with people they disagree with. Thus you can be a left wing or right wing liberal - as long as you value rational debate over slurs, no-platforming, misrepresenting opponents views and shutting down honest conversations - which is a major problem on the Trumpian far-right. But it also a problem on the mainstream left nowadays. They generally see the above techniques as a toolkit, and not as things to be avoided.

I wouldn't use Dave Rubin as an example of a liberal anymore - his Libertarian stuff on Rogan's podcast a few weeks ago was pretty fringe right-wing to me, even if he's still socially liberal.

johnp001

Whether Liberal or Conservative is a bad word is a question of how you view people who hold opinions that differ from your own. Do you consider opposing views an indication of moral degeneracy or sophistry on the part of those that hold them or do you consider them otherwise intelligent, rational and moral people whose sincerely held beliefs are incorrect.
Johnathan Haidt has conducted interesting research on the extent to which holders of particular views are able to understand the views of their opponents
The Moral Stereotypes of Liberals and Conservatives: Exaggeration of Differences across the Political Divide

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Liberal used to mean tolerant, broad minded and accepting of those whose opinion differs from yours.

Nowadays, many of those who think of themselves as liberals, are actually the most aggressive in defence of their views and determined to shape society according to their opinions and their ideas. They have no time for anyone who has what they regard as conservative opinions, and think it's okay to belittle them and jeer at them and try to suppress their right to have an opinion, express their beliefs etc..

Those people are actually the very opposite of liberal and are actually intolerant dictators.

Mutant z

This has become an issue because so many have strayed from its original meaning and used identity politics under the guise of liberalism which is a completely different thing to classical liberalism.

Taytoland

People mix up liberalism with leftists/Marxists. It's usually the lunatics included in the latter.

manonboard

I've been moving towards a distasteful opinion of liberal / left.

It stems from encountering constant group mentality that is quite reminiscent of fascism leaning tendencies. I think many people are finding liberal to be a very aggressive political stance these days.

It seems to have a contradiction of "Everyone is equal, and free to be themselves, and thats ok".. then "however, you must view all people in this particular lens, and use this language, and think these thoughts.. or you're a bigot and an enemy of freedom".

It's become such an emotionally violent stance.

I think it also stems from a lack of responsibility of managing the destruction/harm/suffering that sometimes occurs from liberal policies. eg: "well it WOULD work if everyone just did it in every policy".. which is quite extremist.

Mutant z

Liberalism isn't about multiculturalism, militant feminism, sexualty, gender, trans etc its about the right to freedom of speech and basic civil liberties with little government interference. But too many so called liberals want tighter censorship laws on speech and more government control on the individual which are contrary to liberal thinking.