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Child Item

Is my child being groomed?

LegacyUser

Going unreg for this as its obviously a sensitive subject.

I have a 4 year old son, very outgoing and social who adores his 11 year old cousin. This cousin has been exhibiting some behaviour which has concerned me and I would appreciate any advice on this.
Although there is a large group of cousins within a similar age bracket, this 11 year boy tends to pal off with my 4 year old. This is a boy who I always thought was a bit strange and manipulative. The parents are divorced and I know he saw some abuse in the marriage in his early childhood. He is a very nervous and anxious boy and is prone to emotional break downs, although his mother maintains he's fine and just of a sensitive nature.
Lately I have noticed that when my son is around, he segregates him from the group and takes off him to play just the 2 of them, occasionally joining in on the wider group play.
This week, which is what really concerned me, he took him off for a walk without asking anybody. I quizzed my 4 year old and he maintains it was just a walk and they came back when he got tired. The 11 year old was spoken to about it and told not to go off again without asking but my concern is why is an 11 year old so intent on hanging around with a 4 year old and segregating themselves. Obviously I know I need to keep an eye on this, its just difficult when its family, I have no proof, just a weird feeling that its not right and I keep saying no to sleep overs, which I have caught the 11 year old whispering to the 4 year a couple of times to 'ask your mam if you can come to my house'. Am I over reacting? 11 seems very young to start grooming a child, would he have the mental capacity to do that? Any advice appreciated.

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Big Bag of Chips

Thread locked as per OP's request.

Big Bag of Chips

Yellow card for professore, for Soapboxing.

Yellow card also for TheBoyConor for advocating violence.

All posters are reminded to reply to the OP, offering mature, constructive, civil advice.

Anyone who is unsure of the standard of posting expected in the Personal Issues Forum should reread The Forum Charter a few times.

LegacyUser

OP here.. Mods you can close this thread now.

While I welcome the great advice from many of you, I think this thread has become very aggressive with many of you very quick to rush to judgement.
This is highly sensitive and the lives of 2 children are at risk here as well as a family relationship.

I wish that many of you would put yourselves in my shoes and see that this is not clear cut.

The situation is being dealt with but I will not be updating further as I do not want another slew of insults and judgement.

My child is and always has been my priority and I really resent any insinuation otherwise.

Thanks

TheBoyConor

OP you need to do something about this double quick. As in immediately, without delay!

Your indecision and inertia on this is baffling. If I had a 4yo child like op and I found out he was being abused I would gladly do time for kicking someones teeth in, whether they be 11 or 111.

professore

wiggle16 wrote: »

If you'd bothered to read my other posts you would see that you are taking that quote completely out of context. I am not putting the feelings of adults over the welfare of children - don't be so stupid.

Yet another hysterical, reactionary post. "So this kid can go on abusing to his hearts content until he gets to 18 and ends up raping and murdering someone?" - where in Christ's name are you getting this from? He is an 11 year old boy. Not Jimmy Savile. Who are you to pass judgement like that, on a child?

Read the entire thread. You've added nothing with your hysterical, incontinent, unlettered response.

I'm not passing judgement. He's an 11 year old boy whose activities will be EVERY BIT as damaging to the victims as if he were Jimmy Savile. I think it's possible he was or is being abused himself. I don't know anything about him. If he's not somehow mentally deficient or acting out abuse he saw at home, 11 is old enough to know that this behaviour is WRONG.

My primary worry is for the OPs child. To minimise the abuse in any way is not helping him.

wiggle16

If you'd bothered to read my other posts you would see that you are taking that quote completely out of context. I am not putting the feelings of adults over the welfare of children - don't be so stupid.

Yet another hysterical, reactionary post. "So this kid can go on abusing to his hearts content until he gets to 18 and ends up raping and murdering someone?" - where in Christ's name are you getting this from? He is an 11 year old boy. Not Jimmy Savile. Who are you to pass judgement like that, on a child?

Read the entire thread. You've added nothing with your hysterical, incontinent, unlettered response.

professore

wiggle16 wrote: »

Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

What an appalling thing to say! If you're being abused, it doesn't matter WHO is doing the abusing! Can't believe this attitude. So this kid can go on abusing to his hearts content until he gets to 18 and ends up raping and murdering someone? This is EXACTLY the time to intervene and potentially uncover a chain of abuse as others have alluded to.

Putting the feelings of adults ahead of the welfare of children is disgusting.

Owryan

spaceHopper wrote: »

I've a strong feeling that the psychologists would have to file a report with TUSLA once abuse is suspected but I could be wrong

Mandatory reporting is required where any suspicion exists that a child or adolescent is at risk.

Owryan

leggo wrote: »

Yeah okay so...if you report a random on the street to Tusla, you can't just say "a girl in a blue shirt just called her child a ****, do something!" Complicated, I know.

Here is the most likely version of events if the OP went to Tusla now with what she knows:

They land down at the sister's house by surprise to inspect the situation.

Just to clarify something, tusla have received reports along the lines of "I saw someone hurt/shout/abuse a child but I don't know who they are.

As for turning up "by surprise", they will ring the person who has been referred to them, explain who they are, why they are contacting them and will seek to arrange a meeting, usually in the family home. Only where there is an immediate risk to a child would they normally turn up unannounced.

I've worked in a social work department, be surprised at what gets reported and by whom.

wiggle16

Candie wrote: »

Health professionals have no choice in the matter, they're required to report any grounds for suspicion. Rightly so, since it's very possible the eleven year old is at risk himself.

The important thing here is both the kids safety, not falling out with family. That pales in comparison to leaving a kid at possible risk of abuse/futher abuse.

Did you notice anywhere that the OP said she was a healthcare professional? Or that this situation only applied to her in that capacity? I must have missed that.
The responsibilities of healthcare professionals are irrelevant at this point.

You are leaping to the conclusion that the older boy is an abuse victim. You have no reason to do so. The OP never alludes to that possibility. The OP never expresses that concern. Her concern is with her son, and how best to handle this situation. Everything else is, quite honestly, wild speculation and hysteria.

This is not about etiquette or falling out with family. The obsession with dealing with "the possibility of abuse" is overriding common sense.

Why do people think that Tusla is some sort of "make-abuse-not-happen" magic wand? Or is it that people think they should cover their own arses in a situation like this, and would report the OP's sister just to dot the i's and cross the t's? Tusla is not a catch all where you can abdicate your own personal responsibilities.

What is it you think Tusla actually do? Read Leggo's post. That is exactly what would happen - and the OP will be left trying to justify putting her sister under scrutiny. This is not about appearances. It's about doing the right thing for everyone involved - and the sister has a right to know what is going on before anyone else is involved.

The OP's sister is not at fault here. There is NO REASON to think there is anything going on in her home to the extent where her child[ren] need to be removed from it for their safety. The OP was previously happy to have her son stay there - indicating she does not feel her sister's home is unsafe.

If the OP discusses this with her sister, they can cooperate in dealing with this. As I am sick of saying, any psychologist will be able to determine if Tusla need intervene. With the information we have, there is no reason for the OP to contact Tusla except for advice and guidance (which she should absolutely avail of).

People need to dispense with unnecessary contingencies and the witch-hunt mentality.

wiggle16

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Any healthcare professional - GP, Psychologist, etc, is now legally mandated to make a declaration to TUSLA in cases where child sex abuse is suspected. This situation, from professional experience, absolutely would necessitate a declaration. It is absolutely undisputed in the medical literature that premature expression of sexual desire is a risk factor for having been abused oneself. Given that the 11 year old specifically asked the young boy to put his foot on his willy, this is a cause for concern.

1) the OP is not, as far as we know, a healthcare professional. She is not mandated to report anything. Your assertions with regards to professional responsibility are irrelevant to this situation.

2) It is absolutely undisputed in the medical literature that premature expression of sexual desire is a risk factor for having been abused oneself.
- no one is arguing with that. However, again, it is not relevant: at 11, he is entering puberty. There's nothing premature about the fact that he is experiencing desires. The issue is his behaviour and how he is acting on them.
- You are making the assumption that he has experienced abuse, with no evidence. It is also undisputed that many boys who grow up to be sex offenders have no history of being abused. It can be entirely organic.
- It is also undisputed but not widely acknowledged that that kind of situation is not very uncommon. That doesn't make it appropriate, it doesn't make it harmless, and it doesn't mean its not a cause for concern, but it does not indicate that the boy is himself being abused.

3) you are absolutely putting the cart before the horse here. If the OP and her sister refer their children to psychologists, they will make the determination as to whether there is reason to involve Tusla - and they will be far better placed to make that call than anyone here on boards with their "professional experience".

What purpose does it serve to involve Tusla in this? What exactly do you think they are going to do about this? The OP would effectively be reporting her sister to child protection, when there is no reason to do so.
If the boy is referred to psychologists who can actually tell if abuse has occurred because it's their job, they can make that determination.

[Deleted User]

never_mind wrote: »

But do you not think the child's mother, the OP's sister, should be taken aside first before TUSLA contact her? If this was a neighbour's child I might say go to TUSLA first but if you are a professional then I think your advice could be quite damaging to the family.

Health professionals have no choice in the matter, they're required to report any grounds for suspicion. Rightly so, since it's very possible the eleven year old is at risk himself.

The important thing here is both the kids safety, not falling out with family. That pales in comparison to leaving a kid at possible risk of abuse/futher abuse.

leggo

laserlad2010 wrote: »

So you've backed down from the citizen's arrest claim then?

Any healthcare professional - GP, Psychologist, etc, is now legally mandated to make a declaration to TUSLA in cases where child sex abuse is suspected. This situation, from professional experience, absolutely would necessitate a declaration.

It is absolutely undisputed in the medical literature that premature expression of sexual desire is a risk factor for having been abused oneself.

Given that the 11 year old specifically asked the young boy to put his foot on his willy, this is a cause for concern.

What are you on about? Can you go back and re-read my posts and understand what I actually said before speaking to me about this again. Or just don’t try and argue with me, or anyone, and help the OP. You know...the idea of the forum...

never_mind

laserlad2010 wrote: »

So you've backed down from the citizen's arrest claim then?

Any healthcare professional - GP, Psychologist, etc, is now legally mandated to make a declaration to TUSLA in cases where child sex abuse is suspected. This situation, from professional experience, absolutely would necessitate a declaration.

It is absolutely undisputed in the medical literature that premature expression of sexual desire is a risk factor for having been abused oneself.

Given that the 11 year old specifically asked the young boy to put his foot on his willy, this is a cause for concern.

But do you not think the child's mother, the OP's sister, should be taken aside first before TUSLA contact her? If this was a neighbour's child I might say go to TUSLA first but if you are a professional then I think your advice could be quite damaging to the family.

laserlad2010

leggo wrote: »

Yeah it’s unclear if she’s said anything to the sister yet, so I’d assume not because I’d imagine that’d be a big update if the OP chose to share it. Though I think the OP may have stopped posting now that the judgey, reactive posts have started coming in.

So you've backed down from the citizen's arrest claim then?

Any healthcare professional - GP, Psychologist, etc, is now legally mandated to make a declaration to TUSLA in cases where child sex abuse is suspected. This situation, from professional experience, absolutely would necessitate a declaration.

It is absolutely undisputed in the medical literature that premature expression of sexual desire is a risk factor for having been abused oneself.

Given that the 11 year old specifically asked the young boy to put his foot on his willy, this is a cause for concern.

leggo

Yeah it’s unclear if she’s said anything to the sister yet, so I’d assume not because I’d imagine that’d be a big update if the OP chose to share it. Though I think the OP may have stopped posting now that the judgey, reactive posts have started coming in.

wiggle16

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It's all well and good keeping her toddler away from that family but while that will protect him, the 11 yo could be abusing other children aswell.

Op has already tried to reason with the mother but it is all falling on deaf ears. It is also falling on deaf ears with the other family.

The assumption that he's abusing other kids is unfounded. There no reason to think he's doing that. Referral to a child psychologist will quickly figure that out if it is the case.

She hasn't tried to reason with her sister. Her sister doesn't know anything about it.

TheBoyConor

It's all well and good keeping her toddler away from that family but while that will protect him, the 11 yo could be abusing other children aswell.

Op has already tried to reason with the mother but it is all falling on deaf ears. It is also falling on deaf ears with the other family woman and they want to sweep it under the carpet and smother it like we did in decades past.

One way around it is to have your child assessed by a psychologist who, when they become aware of an abuse issue, will be obliged to inform Tusla who will then come in to question and investigate the family.

She can't then give out to you for calling Tusla on them because you won't have.

wiggle16

spaceHopper wrote: »

I've a strong feeling that the psychologists would have to file a report with TUSLA once abuse is suspected but I could be wrong

That's my point. Let them decide if Tusla needs to be contacted.

If the behaviour is only between these two boys and isn't arising from previous abuse (which is likely as it sounds like so called sexual play) then it's unlikely they'll contact Tusla - they simply won't need to.

Malayalam

This tendency to want to have the ''state'' fix all problems is one that is suspect, in my opinion. It is a post-modern habit to relinquish all self responsibility and power. This situation as presently described by the OP does not require the heavy hand of faceless state institutions. The individual has power - don't relinquish it so readily. Talk to the parent of the child. Ensure contact is stopped. Inform the toddler of their privacy rights and about their body. If after all avenues are exhausted and there still remains a danger then consider informing state authorities. It is more likely that hormones rather than abuse is driving the older child's behaviour.

spaceHopper

Both boys need to be referred to child psychologists - they will certainly determine if Tusla need be .

I've a strong feeling that the psychologists would have to file a report with TUSLA once abuse is suspected but I could be wrong

wiggle16

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What if you do nothing op and the child grows up to be another Mark Hennessy, or a Larry Murphy or a Graham Dwyer?
How will your conscience be then?

For the love of God op. Contact Tusla for the sake of all involved, even the boy so he can get the psych treatment he needs. At this rate he is going one way and before long he'll be beyond saving.

Your sister is going to do nothing. No wonder the boy is messed up if this is how flippant his mother is about pedophilic abuse within the family home. And the other one is as bad for seeking to cover it up in hush hush fashion like the church child sex abusers.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

A TUSLA disclosure will have ramifications for your family, OP, but if you think that this could be child sexual abuse then you absolutely MUST disclose it to them.
There's pontificating and then there's disclosing potential child sex abuse. How would you feel if you said nothing and this turned out to be ongoing sex abuse?

This is the kind of thing that is going to get the OP nowhere. Absolute reactionary hysteria.

What the little boy told the OP will have obviously sent a chill down her spine. She is understandably bewildered - she does not need the added complication of involving a state agency in something where there is no need for them to be involved, in any more than a guidance/supportive role. Tusla does not need to be actively involved, because her child is not in danger, or in an abusive environment. The OP certainly does not have to report this to Tusla.

In this context, Tusla are primarily there to intervene where children are at risk of abuse or there is reason to believe they are being abused: the operative word there is INTERVENE.

The OP has been made aware by her child that another child is behaving inappropriately with him, a relative, but another child all the same.
Is it abuse? Quite possibly, considering how calculating the older boy has been in trying to get access to his cousin. It is certainly sexual play at the least, which is also extremely serious but is far more common than people think. I don't say that to dismiss it. I say it because people are jumping to all sorts of conclusions and hypotheses about what is happening in the background - with no just cause. Larry Murphy?? WTF?

As leggo and never_mind have pointed out, this is not the kind of situation where it is appropriate to escalate it to Tusla AT THIS POINT. It will not accomplish anything. The OP needs to talk frankly to her sister and they can take it from there - her sister has DONE NOTHING WRONG. Where are people getting this idea that her sister is somehow at fault or somehow facilitating this? She has no real reason to suspect him of anything. OP says he is weird and introverted, so the sister is likely delighted he is being sociable, because that's all she thinks it is. Hence she thinks sleepovers are a great idea. She thinks it's all innocent.

Reporting/declaring/disclosing/making an admission to Tusla, call it what you want, will accomplish NOTHING. If she approaches her sister herself, they can cooperate. If she reports it to Tusla, her sister will naturally go on the defensive and it would likely make her less inclined to believe the 3 year old, because reporting it to Tusla trumps it up into something it's not.

All it will do is completely destroy her relationship with her sister, 100%. The sister would be put in a position where she will have to defend herself from scrutiny, when she has done nothing wrong. This is NOT an adversarial situation.

Honestly put yourself in OP's sister's shoes for a second: if your child was behaving like this, would you want your sister to approach you to tell you, or have social workers turn up at your door, at her instigation? How do you honestly think most people would react to that? How does it accomplish anything?

This is not a point of etiquette. OP needs to tell her sister what has happened. They can then decide upon the best course of action to take. You cannot just assume that her sister will react with anything other than shock and concern. They are both mothers. Both boys need to be referred to child psychologists - they will certainly determine if Tusla need be involved.

Certainly the OP can and should contact Tusla for advice before doing anything. But then she needs to speak to her sister, regardless of what she does after that. If it is reported to Tusla, it cannot be withdrawn. If the OP speaks to her sister first, Tusla will still be there if she feels she needs them.

LegacyUser

My concern would be for the 11 year old - OP, your son has you to look out for him, who does the 11 year old have? Not your sister from the sounds of it. My biggest concern would be that something bad might be happening to the 11 year old and no one is catching it. You definitely need to have this conversation again with your sister, and do ring TUSLA, you can speak to them anonymously and they will be happy to provide you with some advice.

paw patrol

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What if you do nothing op and the child grows up to be another Mark Hennessy, or a Larry Murphy or a Graham Dwyer?
How will your conscience be then?
.

get over yourself with your panic...

leggo

laserlad2010 wrote: »

What are you on? Another long winded post from you... A TUSLA disclosure is absolutely not a "citizen's arrest" situation.

Yeah okay so...if you report a random on the street to Tusla, you can't just say "a girl in a blue shirt just called her child a ****, do something!" Complicated, I know.

The point is: you need to have something concrete to report that they can act on and you need to be sure of the consequences of your actions in doing so, i.e. if you're going to blow up your family, make sure it's a last resort after exhausting all options. People make these declarations and get judgey with the OP without understanding themselves what is actually required.

Here is the most likely version of events if the OP went to Tusla now with what she knows:

They land down at the sister's house by surprise to inspect the situation. Her sister denies any knowledge of it and says that she hasn't seen or heard anything outside of what the sister has said. They leave because there's nothing to proceed on beyond the story of a 3-year old. It's filed away and nothing is done unless there are further reports. Even if they interviewed the 11-year old and he tearfully admitted "Yes I put my willy on his foot", that in itself is not sexual abuse. Kids do silly stuff like that all the time and you're likely not going to get any psychological admissions of grooming because he doesn't even understand what the term 'grooming' means. He's 11. So if exactly what the OP has said is proven to be true with Tusla, they still can't do anything other than file it away. Meanwhile, a family has exploded, the OP will likely be cut off from said family and further away from the situation where she absolutely can't do a thing.

Your advice achieves precisely nothing and does massive damage in the real world is what I'm saying, in another long-winded post (because that matters for some reason).

TheBoyConor

What if you do nothing op and the child grows up to be another Mark Hennessy, or a Larry Murphy or a Graham Dwyer?
How will your conscience be then?

For the love of God op. Contact Tusla for the sake of all involved, even the boy so he can get the psych treatment he needs. At this rate he is going one way and before long he'll be beyond saving.

Your sister is going to do nothing. No wonder the boy is messed up if this is how flippant his mother is about pedophilic abuse within the family home. And the other one is as bad for seeking to cover it up in hush hush fashion like the church child sex abusers.

laserlad2010

leggo wrote: »

I think people need to put aside their own fears and anxieties surrounding the issue and tailor advice specifically towards the OP's issue.

For example: I remember a while back I heard a mother loudly call her toddler child a "c***" and it shook me up. I posted about it on social media and immediately got a slew of responses telling me I should report her to Tusla. I then had to explain to these people that, in order to do so, that would involve me having to make a citizen's arrest of this person and depriving them of their liberty in order to ascertain the details needed to report them, which is committing a crime in itself because the incident, while upsetting, wasn't actually illegal in any way. It was just morally wrong and upsetting.

Similarly so here. What's actually happened is that the OP had her suspicions and they were later backed up by one reported incident of inappropriate (but again not illegal) behaviour. And this stuff does go on, most of the time innocently. It's weird and uncomfortable, but stuff like cousins kissing or touching each other when they're young and don't know what they're doing, it can often be fixed with a talking to and lesson in boundaries. The situation definitely needs to be monitored and addressed, but it's not at the stage where it's necessary to blow up a family over it (which is what would happen if she called Tusla behind her sister's back, 100%). And it's definitely not at the stage where the OP should be shamed, her instincts and reactions in a tough situation have been as good as you can realistically expect. It's very easy to stand back and moralise online but these are real people's lives with very real consequences.

What are you on? Another long winded post from you... A TUSLA disclosure is absolutely not a "citizen's arrest" situation.

A TUSLA disclosure will have ramifications for your family, OP, but if you think that this could be child sexual abuse then you absolutely MUST disclose it to them.

There's pontificating and then there's disclosing potential child sex abuse. How would you feel if you said nothing and this turned out to be ongoing sex abuse?

scarepanda

I'd be seriously questioning the other family members reaction at being confided in and what their motives were. Do they know more than what the OP told them? Are there rumours about the boy or someone that boy would be in contact with? Or is it the classic Irish reaction of sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it never happened? Either way, I'd not be trusting, or indeed spending anytime around that person again when the 3 year olds safety was of such little concern to them.

Op, if you haven't done so already, I'd speak to your sister first and then, depending on how proactive she is over the situation I'd decide whether to contact Tusla, and I'd let her know that you are more than willing to contact tusla if she doesn't take action. I'd also want proof of action being taken.

I'd also agree with the other poster who pointed out the relationship, or lack of, between your older boy and the 11 year old. It did stand out as strange to me. So, I'd be having a non confrontational conversation with him. You seem to have good instincts so you should be able to determine if you older boy knows something/has reservations about being close to the 11 year old, trust him and trust your gut. Your instincts certainly seem to be spot on, so fair play on that front. Although I'm sure they are instincts you never wanted to have tested.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

leggo

I think people need to put aside their own fears and anxieties surrounding the issue and tailor advice specifically towards the OP's issue.

For example: I remember a while back I heard a mother loudly call her toddler child a "c***" and it shook me up. I posted about it on social media and immediately got a slew of responses telling me I should report her to Tusla. I then had to explain to these people that, in order to do so, that would involve me having to make a citizen's arrest of this person and depriving them of their liberty in order to ascertain the details needed to report them, which is committing a crime in itself because the incident, while upsetting, wasn't actually illegal in any way. It was just morally wrong and upsetting.

Similarly so here. What's actually happened is that the OP had her suspicions and they were later backed up by one reported incident of inappropriate (but again not illegal) behaviour. And this stuff does go on, most of the time innocently. It's weird and uncomfortable, but stuff like cousins kissing or touching each other when they're young and don't know what they're doing, it can often be fixed with a talking to and lesson in boundaries. The situation definitely needs to be monitored and addressed, but it's not at the stage where it's necessary to blow up a family over it (which is what would happen if she called Tusla behind her sister's back, 100%). And it's definitely not at the stage where the OP should be shamed, her instincts and reactions in a tough situation have been as good as you can realistically expect. It's very easy to stand back and moralise online but these are real people's lives with very real consequences.