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Child Item

Is my child being groomed?

LegacyUser

Going unreg for this as its obviously a sensitive subject.

I have a 4 year old son, very outgoing and social who adores his 11 year old cousin. This cousin has been exhibiting some behaviour which has concerned me and I would appreciate any advice on this.
Although there is a large group of cousins within a similar age bracket, this 11 year boy tends to pal off with my 4 year old. This is a boy who I always thought was a bit strange and manipulative. The parents are divorced and I know he saw some abuse in the marriage in his early childhood. He is a very nervous and anxious boy and is prone to emotional break downs, although his mother maintains he's fine and just of a sensitive nature.
Lately I have noticed that when my son is around, he segregates him from the group and takes off him to play just the 2 of them, occasionally joining in on the wider group play.
This week, which is what really concerned me, he took him off for a walk without asking anybody. I quizzed my 4 year old and he maintains it was just a walk and they came back when he got tired. The 11 year old was spoken to about it and told not to go off again without asking but my concern is why is an 11 year old so intent on hanging around with a 4 year old and segregating themselves. Obviously I know I need to keep an eye on this, its just difficult when its family, I have no proof, just a weird feeling that its not right and I keep saying no to sleep overs, which I have caught the 11 year old whispering to the 4 year a couple of times to 'ask your mam if you can come to my house'. Am I over reacting? 11 seems very young to start grooming a child, would he have the mental capacity to do that? Any advice appreciated.

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shesty

My heart kind of stopped a bit when I read that last post.

I don't know what that older child is trying to do,or whether they are doing it innocently or with intent, but I would not be letting my young child anywhere near him.

OP your sister is being a weapon behaving like that. I'd agree with the poster who suggested that a conversation needs to be had with her about talking to her child. As for her asking why your child can't sleep over, I think the answer should probably be fairly blunt - your child has told you of a few incidents that occurred and while she may see it as cousins having fun, you and your OH feel your small child is too small and would prefer that they didn't go to any more sleepovers.

For what it's worth I had plenty of cousin sleepovers and stuff like that never, ever happened....ever. Actually there was a rule among all the parents that we weren't allowed to ask for sleepovers if we were visiting and it was time to go home, because they didn't like being put on the spot.

As for the family member who advised against saying anything - I'm in 2 minds on that. I agree sweeping it under the carpet is the reason that so much abuse happened in the past and should be avoided. But unless you have absolute concrete proof you can't really paint the child as an abuser - they are still only a child at the end of it all. But of course you don't really WANT to have concrete proof because that would be awful. It's hard to know what to do on that one.

But if I were you I'd protect my own child at all costs.

wiggle16

ahnow wrote: »

Contact Tusla.
If a man did that to your child it would be considered abuse. It is abuse, and your child is being groomed.

I would not go contacting Tusla about this. This is not what Tusla is for and would be an overreaction to what has happened.
Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

OP, You need to talk to your sister, and tell her what your son told you, and tell her that you believe him. My blood would have ran cold as well to hear that.

She will hardly take it well, but you can't keep it to yourself. She needs to know because she needs to intervene with him - she obviously does not see it for what it is. Your son has given you specific details of what has happened, so she cannot dismiss it. It will be up to her then to consider her son's behaviour with other children he might have contact with.

I think the other family member you spoke to just wasn't taking you seriously.

All you can do is protect your son, he's your priority. It sounds as if he genuinely does not understand the nature of what has happened and doesn't see it as significant, so you have caught it in time - he will probably forget about it completely.

This is an awful situation to find yourself in, but you have to tell your sister. She needs to know so that she can intervene appropriately.

Big Bag of Chips

wiggle16 wrote: »

I would not go contacting Tusla about this. This is not what Tusla is for and would be an overreaction to what has happened.
Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

This is exactly what Tusla are for. It is irrelevant how old the people involved are. Tulsa are there to safeguard children. All children. The 11 year old is a child. And even recognising that the 11 year old is "predatory and calculated" shows that this child needs intervention to make sure HE is not at risk of being/being abused. (Maybe a slightly older child is doing the same with him?)

I work with children and would have links with Tusla. I know of a 5 and 3 year old brother and sister in foster care who were displaying sexualised behaviour towards each other. That absolutely HAD to be reported. The fact that they were both children was irrelevant.

You can ring Tusla to ask for advice. They will then be able to advise correct paths to take. If your sister is not willing to face this and consent to speaking to them then I'm not sure what can be done. But there is no harm ringing and asking.

Owryan

You most certainly can ring tusla and speak to someone one, they can advise you over the phone on possible actions and if they feel there is any risk they will look for you to make a referral to them.

My concern would be that the older child's behaviour is not normal and they are possibly acting out something that they saw or experienced. Either way, if you feel your child is in danger you need to take steps to protect them. One of those steps would be to speak to someone in tusla like the duty social worker for your locale.

ahnow

I’m not labelling the child a child abuser-although the behaviour can be considered abuse-can it not? Child on child abuse situations are really complex and specialists should be involved for a number of different reasons. Firstly is the cousin being abused? Is that where he has learned the behaviour? Is he grooming other children? A simple talking to by parents is not enough and I think that others need to be involved because it’s not as simple as that.
As someone who was abused as a child themselves it is not an over reaction, how the parents deal with it and how the family deals with it going forward is going to majorly affect the outcomes of their child. I think outside professionals absolutely need to be involved, especially so because they’re dealing with another child.

And actually from a legal stand point because this has happened she is under obligation to report it now as the safety of children has been called into question. I’m not labelling the other child anything, but I’m not going to underestimate the seriousness of the situation just because he is a child. He needs help as well.

wiggle16 wrote: »

I would not go contacting Tusla about this. This is not what Tusla is for and would be an overreaction to what has happened.
Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

OP, You need to talk to your sister, and tell her what your son told you, and tell her that you believe him. My blood would have ran cold as well to hear that.

She will hardly take it well, but you can't keep it to yourself. She needs to know because she needs to intervene with him - she obviously does not see it for what it is. Your son has given you specific details of what has happened, so she cannot dismiss it. It will be up to her then to consider her son's behaviour with other children he might have contact with.

I think the other family member you spoke to just wasn't taking you seriously.

All you can do is protect your son, he's your priority. It sounds as if he genuinely does not understand the nature of what has happened and doesn't see it as significant, so you have caught it in time - he will probably forget about it completely.

This is an awful situation to find yourself in, but you have to tell your sister. She needs to know so that she can intervene appropriately.

wiggle16

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

This is exactly what Tusla are for. It is irrelevant how old the people involved are. Tulsa are there to safeguard children. All children. The 11 year old is a child. And even recognising that the 11 year old is "predatory and calculated" shows that this child needs intervention to make sure HE is not at risk of being/being abused. (Maybe a slightly older child is doing the same with him?)

I think I probably need to clarify.

I meant that the OP should not go reporting this to Tusla, without speaking to her sister, which is what I believed the poster I was quoting meant. I do not think that social workers turning up on OP's sister's doorstep unannounced are a good idea at this point, and that's what I inferred from the post. I was likely mistaken. But either way I think that kind of escalation is not appropriate at this point without having spoken to her sister. My reference to age was not given as a reason not to involve Tusla, it was to point out it was not a man doing it, but a child, and it's not fair to compare them. One constitutes a criminal offence. A child is not considered capable of committing a crime.

The example you are citing is slightly different because you were a third party to what was happening - your only option was to contact Tusla, and you were completely right. Of course that had to be reported. Just as the OP does need to tell her sister.

By all means, yes, of course contact Tusla for advice and guidance. I do think the OP needs to tell her sister, regardless. She needs to safeguard her child also, if he is getting this behaviour from elsewhere.

Hannibal_Smith

OP you are your child's mother. He is depending on you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, it's not your fault and I'm not trying to make it sound as of it is. But your suspicions were aroused. Fair enough. But now you have language from your child which supports your decision. You have only one allegiance here and it's who the child who in years to come will remember what went on with his older cousin and who he voiced it to (albeit in the innocent way he understands) and nonetheless it continued. You have got to do all you can now. You are not in the wrong. Your child is not in the wrong. If he had punched your kid, you'd react. So the same now . Say what your kid said to the kids mother. Deal with it.

wiggle16

ahnow wrote: »

I’m not labelling the child a child abuser-although the behaviour can be considered abuse-can it not? Child on child abuse situations are really complex and specialists should be involved for a number of different reasons. Firstly is the cousin being abused? Is that where he has learned the behaviour? Is he grooming other children? A simple talking to by parents is not enough and I think that others need to be involved because it’s not as simple as that.
As someone who was abused as a child themselves it is not an over reaction, how the parents deal with it and how the family deals with it going forward is going to majorly affect the outcomes of their child.....

How the parents all deal with it is exactly my point.

Tusla are there to intervene where children are being abused or where they are at risk of being abused. They are your only option if you are a third party to the situation. In this instance, the primary care givers of both children are sisters. The OP never gave any indication that she believes the older boy himself at risk in the home. Escalating this to Tusla without speaking to her sister would certainly be an overreaction at this point because she would effectively be reporting her sister to social services, unannounced. And part of the OP's concern is how to deal with her sister - that isn't a small detail. How they all deal with it is extremely important.

If she speaks to her sister, she can tell her what her son has told her and that she believes him. The sister can (hopefully) then speak to her own son, and if he does tell her that he himself is being or has been abused, then she/they can escalate it to Tusla and the Gardaí as appropriate.

Again I should clarify that I obviously don't mean a simple talking to. The older boy certainly needs psychological intervention and help, not just a talking to. That should happen whether or not Tusla are involved. If all parents are satisfied that this is isolated, unlearned behaviour, then by referring the child(ren) to psychologists they are taking steps to prevent abuse and need not report it to Tusla. Referral to a therapist will quickly root out if this behaviour is actually idiopathic or if it's been learned elsewhere - in which case it will be reported to Tusla anyway.

My point is that this is not a situation where you should be straight on the phone to Tusla (which is what I believed you meant). Both sisters should (and I hope will) co-operate to resolve it. Certainly she can contact them for advice.

I know child on child abuse is very complex - but whether this constitutes abuse or not isn't really important (though I agree and think it does). The older boy has a probably sexual fixation with his younger cousin and is being very calculating in gaining access to him, and now it appears he's initiating physical contact with him. It doesn't really matter what we call it. He's aware what he is doing is wrong, because he is hiding it. But the situation the OP finds herself in is far more common than people think. However I do see what you mean now, and I'll withdraw saying you're labelling the child an abuser. Apologies.

Malayalam

I absolutely never had any suspicion that the 12 year old boy who seemed to be so patient with and interested in my 3 year old son had any ulterior motives. We were newly arrived to a very rural area, and these were a family we had met a few times previously whose child seemed to be so good natured. A few days in, and though the boys were always there nearby me if the older child visited, in the small garden, on the steps of the house, never wandered off, but still my little lad came to me and said X had put his hand into his pants to feel his willy.
After giving him a hug and telling he was good and clever to say something so quickly, I was straight up to the house of the parents of the older child. Told them bluntly what had happened, told them to deal with their child, told them that he was not to visit our house again. It was distressing, and a very charged encounter, because the parents reacted so badly, roaring at me, making me out to be evil to make up such lies, etc. But even though I hate conflict and would be reclusive by nature - this encounter was completely outside my comfort zone, and had all the high reactions and ugly responses one would most dread - still at that moment my instincts had kicked in and I really did not give one fcuk.
Yeah, so talk to your very small children about their bodies and their right to bodily privacy and be wary of older kids who take an interest in them.
I don't know if I would say it is ''grooming''. Maybe a big pre-pubescent surge in testosterone in the older boy that leaves them confused and full of strange new desires and curiosity. I don't know. Either way your duty is to protect your child. Whatever it takes.

Flippyfloppy

wiggle16 wrote: »

If she speaks to her sister, she can tell her what her son has told her and that she believes him. The sister can (hopefully) then speak to her own son, and if he does tell her that he himself is being or has been abused, then she/they can escalate it to Tusla and the Gardaí as appropriate.

There are a lot of variables in the situation you're predicting. I doubt it would all play out so simply, judging by the reaction of the first family member OP spoke to.

OP has a duty to her child. Her child will need to link in with services from Tusla too. That should not be dependent on OPs sisters reaction to this development and whether she decides Tusla need to be involved. OP can make that call herself, its obvious they do need to be involved.

Ursus Horribilis

It's not entirely clear from your post if you mentioned the "willy" incident to the boy's mother. If you have, I'm shocked that she's reacting the way she is. I wonder if she's still in denial now? Regardless of what this boy's motives are, this needs to be dealt with before he gets older. Bad and all as it is to be "inappropriate" with his cousin, at least the matter is being contained within the family for now. If he branches out and does something to someone else's child, it's going to go nuclear. And rightly so.

AttentionBebe

OP please trust your instincts. It's estimated that as much as 40% of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by older children. It's possible that your sister will cut you off in anger/denial but nothing is more important here than protecting your own child.

leggo

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

It's not entirely clear from your post if you mentioned the "willy" incident to the boy's mother. If you have, I'm shocked that she's reacting the way she is. I wonder if she's still in denial now? Regardless of what this boy's motives are, this needs to be dealt with before he gets older. Bad and all as it is to be "inappropriate" with his cousin, at least the matter is being contained within the family for now. If he branches out and does something to someone else's child, it's going to go nuclear. And rightly so.

I'd be saddened but not shocked. A mother's instinct is always, always to protect their child, first and foremost, and when accusations this serious are levelled you're just not going to believe it at first. And then you've got to weigh up the natural guilt that's going to kick in if they didn't identify this issue within their child, how they might've missed whatever led to this, and so on. All of that is before if they're actually a responsible parent who'll act on this or even know what to do/bother doing it, then you have to consider the daunting prospect of considering if they perpetrated or were complicit in it. I'd have put money on their initial reaction to be resisting it and they shouldn't be judged too harshly for that, but what's telling is what happens next.

OP it goes without saying to keep your eye on this situation and keep your own child away from the cousin. You've done really well spotting this before (presumably) anything serious occurred, explaining what's inappropriate etc, and I'd trust from that that you'll do well going forward in knowing how to explain boundaries and that what the cousin did was bold etc. There's no one hard and fast way to handle this but your instincts are dead on here so trust them and don't doubt yourself. I'd also monitor the situation with the other child. It's worth gently following up on it shortly to see if your sister has acted on the info you gave her. She should come to terms with it eventually and deal with it. If she does, then this shouldn't linger as a grudge or awkward topic, by right she should thank you for highlighting it if anything. If she starts backing off and cutting you out, I'd see that as a sign that she's in total denial and that's when you have to start considering getting Tusla involved because other children are then in danger.

Best case scenario this could just be a hormonal, pre-adolescent acting out a bit inappropriately (without understanding that) and needing this behaviour to be nipped in the bud, and they can come back from it and be a perfectly healthy, functional member of society in the future. But it absolutely needs to be addressed in some form and can't just be forgotten about.

wiggle16

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

There are a lot of variables in the situation you're predicting. I doubt it would all play out so simply, judging by the reaction of the first family member OP spoke to.

OP has a duty to her child. Her child will need to link in with services from Tusla too. That should not be dependent on OPs sisters reaction to this development and whether she decides Tusla need to be involved. OP can make that call herself, its obvious they do need to be involved.

I very much doubt it will all play out so simply too.

However what is not going to make this situation simpler is reporting it to Tusla straight away.
If you were the OP's sister, what would you honestly think your reaction would be if the first you heard of this was from Tusla, rather than from her?
Do you think it would make you more likely to believe OP's son and cooperate, or less likely? I cannot believe how reactionary people are being.

I am not saying "don't get Tusla involved EVER in this."
I am saying OP should speak to her sister first. The sister is not the same person as the first, morally lazy family member. You cannot assume she will react with anything other than concern for her child, and shock.

And maybe she won't take it well, and will put her head in the sand - calling Tusla unannounced is not going to prevent that reaction, it will make it more likely. It's effectively the same as reporting to Tusla. The OP is asking how she should go about this, and her first port of call should absolutely be to her sister, end of.

[Deleted User]

Testosterone surges by as much as ten times the pre-pubescent level in adolescents as puberty hits, and along with sexual feelings that can be difficult to handle it also increases the likelihood of risk-taking behaviours by a substantial margin. In other words, he might know what he's doing is wrong and not only keep doing it but escalate the behaviour. He needs help, and your little chap needs protection. The lad may or may not have learned this behaviour through abuse, and either way he needs to understand boundaries and limits and what is and isn't acceptable as a best-case scenario, and help with dealing with any abuse he suffered himself and skills to avoid repeating it, as a worse-case scenario.

Your little fella has you to look out for him and you're doing a great job with those spot-on instincts. If nobody is going to take this seriously enough to look out for the eleven year old then you absolutely have to report the situation to whatever agency can give him the intervention and help he need to avoid him becoming a dangerous adult with a ruined life of his own and devastation in his wake. The sooner the better.

Good luck, it's a dreadful position to be in.

never_mind

I'd agree that going to Tusla at the outset is a bit much as we are dealing with two children. Of course Tusla will always be there to advise but I would think that talking to your sister first would be good. Either way you can contact Tusla and start following protocol. If the shoe was on the other foot OP which would you prefer? I think being taken aside for a quiet chat first before taking it to another level would be advisable.

valoren

I take the OP to mean that she said it to the older cousins mother, her sister, about them going off together alone.
She then confided in her other sister about everything including the incident. Now when talk of sleepovers crop up, to which OP is reluctant, this other sister, is being a **** stirring idiot, asking aloud why not, despite knowing everything and failing to realize how difficult and potentially incendiary the situation is.

I'd take the 'willy' incident as clear cut grooming. It's not something a little boy will lie about. The key to seeing this as grooming is that he regards this as funny. He is being groomed to equate touching privates as 'funny'. You're lucky it's been caught early. The touching privates is with genitals inside clothing. The more time the cousin will spend with your son, soon putting his hand on his cousins 'willy' will then be deemed funny, then it wouldn't it be 'funny' if your son were to kiss his cousins willy? Your son will think it's actually funny not knowing the reality of what is happening yet. The cousin clearly hasn't understood what boundaries are, that it's not acceptable to be playing footsie with a child.

A possible way to diffuse this would be to allow the cousin to go for walks with your son but you say almost absentmindedly that "You know what, I think I'll join you both as well", then go off and chaperone them 'playing'. Do it every time, even alternate it with your husband and he'll soon stop asking or trying to get your son alone.

spaceHopper

If you contact TUSLA there is no going back so be 110% sure before you so. It's hard to tell from your last post if you spoke to your sister and family member before or after the shoe insistent. Why is your older son not closer to his cousin. To me he is key he could well know more but doesn't know how to tell you. It's also hard to talk face to face. Side by side could be a lot easier. Take him for a drive in the car. Make sure he knows he's not in trouble that he is a good kid. Tell him you are worried about his little brother and ask him if something happend.

TheBoyConor

To be honest there is no going back from this.

If I were the OP, the older child's card would be forever marked with me. I'd not want them around my family or house ever again.

The strain could be in him for serious child sex abuse.

The first port of call needs to be a calling out of the parents on the issue. Perhaps the child is being abused by the father or grandfather? Who knows.
What is the boy's father like? Would there by any tell tale signs about him that might hint at some potential for impropriety? - I'd not be leaving my children do any sleepovers in that house.

And another thing about sleep overs - if you are aware that there is child sex abuse potentially happening in that house and you fail to do anything about it and continue to permit sleepovers then In my opinion you would be culpable and answerable for any abuse that occurs because you knowingly put the child in that situation knowing what could happen.

I think tusla should be told because what if there is serious abuse in the future from this child. Then this will be on record and could help any future case that a future victim might bring.

Be prepared to cut the sister and her family from your life because, lets face it, these are serious things and when the issue is child sex abuse there can be no measures off the table for dealing with it. And I think tusla absolutely should be called at least to give advice.

And as for the other family member who you told and she advised to say nothing and not breath a word of it to anyone ever again should be ashamed of herself. That's the smothering and brushing under the carpet that facilitated rampant child sex abuse the length and breath of this country for decades. I think she should be called out and shamed alongside your sister.

never_mind

Another thing that hasn't been really spoken about is how your son was put in a position to have his 'willy' touched by the cousin's foot or how a sleepover came to happen? OP, were you allowing the children to be alone together???

leggo

I think people need to put aside their own fears and anxieties surrounding the issue and tailor advice specifically towards the OP's issue.

For example: I remember a while back I heard a mother loudly call her toddler child a "c***" and it shook me up. I posted about it on social media and immediately got a slew of responses telling me I should report her to Tusla. I then had to explain to these people that, in order to do so, that would involve me having to make a citizen's arrest of this person and depriving them of their liberty in order to ascertain the details needed to report them, which is committing a crime in itself because the incident, while upsetting, wasn't actually illegal in any way. It was just morally wrong and upsetting.

Similarly so here. What's actually happened is that the OP had her suspicions and they were later backed up by one reported incident of inappropriate (but again not illegal) behaviour. And this stuff does go on, most of the time innocently. It's weird and uncomfortable, but stuff like cousins kissing or touching each other when they're young and don't know what they're doing, it can often be fixed with a talking to and lesson in boundaries. The situation definitely needs to be monitored and addressed, but it's not at the stage where it's necessary to blow up a family over it (which is what would happen if she called Tusla behind her sister's back, 100%). And it's definitely not at the stage where the OP should be shamed, her instincts and reactions in a tough situation have been as good as you can realistically expect. It's very easy to stand back and moralise online but these are real people's lives with very real consequences.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

scarepanda

I'd be seriously questioning the other family members reaction at being confided in and what their motives were. Do they know more than what the OP told them? Are there rumours about the boy or someone that boy would be in contact with? Or is it the classic Irish reaction of sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it never happened? Either way, I'd not be trusting, or indeed spending anytime around that person again when the 3 year olds safety was of such little concern to them.

Op, if you haven't done so already, I'd speak to your sister first and then, depending on how proactive she is over the situation I'd decide whether to contact Tusla, and I'd let her know that you are more than willing to contact tusla if she doesn't take action. I'd also want proof of action being taken.

I'd also agree with the other poster who pointed out the relationship, or lack of, between your older boy and the 11 year old. It did stand out as strange to me. So, I'd be having a non confrontational conversation with him. You seem to have good instincts so you should be able to determine if you older boy knows something/has reservations about being close to the 11 year old, trust him and trust your gut. Your instincts certainly seem to be spot on, so fair play on that front. Although I'm sure they are instincts you never wanted to have tested.

laserlad2010

leggo wrote: »

I think people need to put aside their own fears and anxieties surrounding the issue and tailor advice specifically towards the OP's issue.

For example: I remember a while back I heard a mother loudly call her toddler child a "c***" and it shook me up. I posted about it on social media and immediately got a slew of responses telling me I should report her to Tusla. I then had to explain to these people that, in order to do so, that would involve me having to make a citizen's arrest of this person and depriving them of their liberty in order to ascertain the details needed to report them, which is committing a crime in itself because the incident, while upsetting, wasn't actually illegal in any way. It was just morally wrong and upsetting.

Similarly so here. What's actually happened is that the OP had her suspicions and they were later backed up by one reported incident of inappropriate (but again not illegal) behaviour. And this stuff does go on, most of the time innocently. It's weird and uncomfortable, but stuff like cousins kissing or touching each other when they're young and don't know what they're doing, it can often be fixed with a talking to and lesson in boundaries. The situation definitely needs to be monitored and addressed, but it's not at the stage where it's necessary to blow up a family over it (which is what would happen if she called Tusla behind her sister's back, 100%). And it's definitely not at the stage where the OP should be shamed, her instincts and reactions in a tough situation have been as good as you can realistically expect. It's very easy to stand back and moralise online but these are real people's lives with very real consequences.

What are you on? Another long winded post from you... A TUSLA disclosure is absolutely not a "citizen's arrest" situation.

A TUSLA disclosure will have ramifications for your family, OP, but if you think that this could be child sexual abuse then you absolutely MUST disclose it to them.

There's pontificating and then there's disclosing potential child sex abuse. How would you feel if you said nothing and this turned out to be ongoing sex abuse?

TheBoyConor

What if you do nothing op and the child grows up to be another Mark Hennessy, or a Larry Murphy or a Graham Dwyer?
How will your conscience be then?

For the love of God op. Contact Tusla for the sake of all involved, even the boy so he can get the psych treatment he needs. At this rate he is going one way and before long he'll be beyond saving.

Your sister is going to do nothing. No wonder the boy is messed up if this is how flippant his mother is about pedophilic abuse within the family home. And the other one is as bad for seeking to cover it up in hush hush fashion like the church child sex abusers.

leggo

laserlad2010 wrote: »

What are you on? Another long winded post from you... A TUSLA disclosure is absolutely not a "citizen's arrest" situation.

Yeah okay so...if you report a random on the street to Tusla, you can't just say "a girl in a blue shirt just called her child a ****, do something!" Complicated, I know.

The point is: you need to have something concrete to report that they can act on and you need to be sure of the consequences of your actions in doing so, i.e. if you're going to blow up your family, make sure it's a last resort after exhausting all options. People make these declarations and get judgey with the OP without understanding themselves what is actually required.

Here is the most likely version of events if the OP went to Tusla now with what she knows:

They land down at the sister's house by surprise to inspect the situation. Her sister denies any knowledge of it and says that she hasn't seen or heard anything outside of what the sister has said. They leave because there's nothing to proceed on beyond the story of a 3-year old. It's filed away and nothing is done unless there are further reports. Even if they interviewed the 11-year old and he tearfully admitted "Yes I put my willy on his foot", that in itself is not sexual abuse. Kids do silly stuff like that all the time and you're likely not going to get any psychological admissions of grooming because he doesn't even understand what the term 'grooming' means. He's 11. So if exactly what the OP has said is proven to be true with Tusla, they still can't do anything other than file it away. Meanwhile, a family has exploded, the OP will likely be cut off from said family and further away from the situation where she absolutely can't do a thing.

Your advice achieves precisely nothing and does massive damage in the real world is what I'm saying, in another long-winded post (because that matters for some reason).

paw patrol

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What if you do nothing op and the child grows up to be another Mark Hennessy, or a Larry Murphy or a Graham Dwyer?
How will your conscience be then?
.

get over yourself with your panic...

LegacyUser

My concern would be for the 11 year old - OP, your son has you to look out for him, who does the 11 year old have? Not your sister from the sounds of it. My biggest concern would be that something bad might be happening to the 11 year old and no one is catching it. You definitely need to have this conversation again with your sister, and do ring TUSLA, you can speak to them anonymously and they will be happy to provide you with some advice.

wiggle16

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What if you do nothing op and the child grows up to be another Mark Hennessy, or a Larry Murphy or a Graham Dwyer?
How will your conscience be then?

For the love of God op. Contact Tusla for the sake of all involved, even the boy so he can get the psych treatment he needs. At this rate he is going one way and before long he'll be beyond saving.

Your sister is going to do nothing. No wonder the boy is messed up if this is how flippant his mother is about pedophilic abuse within the family home. And the other one is as bad for seeking to cover it up in hush hush fashion like the church child sex abusers.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

A TUSLA disclosure will have ramifications for your family, OP, but if you think that this could be child sexual abuse then you absolutely MUST disclose it to them.
There's pontificating and then there's disclosing potential child sex abuse. How would you feel if you said nothing and this turned out to be ongoing sex abuse?

This is the kind of thing that is going to get the OP nowhere. Absolute reactionary hysteria.

What the little boy told the OP will have obviously sent a chill down her spine. She is understandably bewildered - she does not need the added complication of involving a state agency in something where there is no need for them to be involved, in any more than a guidance/supportive role. Tusla does not need to be actively involved, because her child is not in danger, or in an abusive environment. The OP certainly does not have to report this to Tusla.

In this context, Tusla are primarily there to intervene where children are at risk of abuse or there is reason to believe they are being abused: the operative word there is INTERVENE.

The OP has been made aware by her child that another child is behaving inappropriately with him, a relative, but another child all the same.
Is it abuse? Quite possibly, considering how calculating the older boy has been in trying to get access to his cousin. It is certainly sexual play at the least, which is also extremely serious but is far more common than people think. I don't say that to dismiss it. I say it because people are jumping to all sorts of conclusions and hypotheses about what is happening in the background - with no just cause. Larry Murphy?? WTF?

As leggo and never_mind have pointed out, this is not the kind of situation where it is appropriate to escalate it to Tusla AT THIS POINT. It will not accomplish anything. The OP needs to talk frankly to her sister and they can take it from there - her sister has DONE NOTHING WRONG. Where are people getting this idea that her sister is somehow at fault or somehow facilitating this? She has no real reason to suspect him of anything. OP says he is weird and introverted, so the sister is likely delighted he is being sociable, because that's all she thinks it is. Hence she thinks sleepovers are a great idea. She thinks it's all innocent.

Reporting/declaring/disclosing/making an admission to Tusla, call it what you want, will accomplish NOTHING. If she approaches her sister herself, they can cooperate. If she reports it to Tusla, her sister will naturally go on the defensive and it would likely make her less inclined to believe the 3 year old, because reporting it to Tusla trumps it up into something it's not.

All it will do is completely destroy her relationship with her sister, 100%. The sister would be put in a position where she will have to defend herself from scrutiny, when she has done nothing wrong. This is NOT an adversarial situation.

Honestly put yourself in OP's sister's shoes for a second: if your child was behaving like this, would you want your sister to approach you to tell you, or have social workers turn up at your door, at her instigation? How do you honestly think most people would react to that? How does it accomplish anything?

This is not a point of etiquette. OP needs to tell her sister what has happened. They can then decide upon the best course of action to take. You cannot just assume that her sister will react with anything other than shock and concern. They are both mothers. Both boys need to be referred to child psychologists - they will certainly determine if Tusla need be involved.

Certainly the OP can and should contact Tusla for advice before doing anything. But then she needs to speak to her sister, regardless of what she does after that. If it is reported to Tusla, it cannot be withdrawn. If the OP speaks to her sister first, Tusla will still be there if she feels she needs them.

spaceHopper

Both boys need to be referred to child psychologists - they will certainly determine if Tusla need be .

I've a strong feeling that the psychologists would have to file a report with TUSLA once abuse is suspected but I could be wrong