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Leaving Cert Subject Dilemma

c_f_p99

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here. (For shorter version, omit italics)
*1/. I've just chosen my LC subjects (which are, aside from the core subjects: French, Physics, Applied Maths, Music and Economics). I'm very happy with the first four, but am wondering whether to change from Economics into either Accounting or Chemistry. I find Economics the most interesting, but I still really like Chemistry and am worried whether I'd be at a huge disadvantage from not taking the subject, if I were to apply to a science course in UCD (or other universities). I love science (especially maths and physics, but also chemistry) and would be devastated if it were to prove problematic. I DO NOT want to apply to any medicine course, though. I am not as interested in Accounting, but have that it's really easy to get high in compared to others (not going to trust them completely, but do most others think the same?). Either Economics, Accounting or Chemistry?

2/. In relation to the cores, very strong with Maths and French (love maths with a passion, always trying to understand and amylase proofs) and score late 90s-100% average in each (from everything: past papers, mocks, class tests and the JC). Irish I found very boring at Junior Cycle, but am starting like it now after TY. Get late 80s- early 90s average in it. Having looked at some LC papers, it seems very reasonable to me. However, English is by far my weakest subject. I actually quite like the subject, but do horrifically in tests (got 65% in mocks). It's just so frustrating! I used to be B average, have since dipped to Cs and even failed the summer exam.*

Should I do Economics, Accounting or Chemistry? Should I OL English, Irish, both or none? I'm doing 8 subjects btw. Would really appreciate replies.

Oh yeah, and if it's important, I got 8As (Maths, Irish, French, Geography, History, Latin, Music and Science) one higher merit (barely): English and 1B: CSPE. in 2017.

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A97

I see that you are doing 8 subjects. 7 is the standard for most people. 8 is doable, but possibly more trouble than it's worth.

Ultimately, I would think most about what you want to do after school. If you want to do anything in STEM, Chemistry would definitely be a good asset. You seem quite capable to take on most subjects, so I would assume that you'll be okay if you work hard at it. It's not ideal, but if you don't like it at all, then at least it might help steer your career direction.

As someone who is studying Engineering in college, and did Accounting for Leaving Cert, I would have benefited much more from Chemistry and if I were making my choices again today, I would pick Chemistry over Accounting even though I did very well in the Leaving Cert Accounting exam.

Anecdotally, I would say that Accounting can be quite troublesome at times, but it is ultimately a fairly repetitive subject and it is easy to do well if you've practised your questions. They are always adding small changes to papers though to keep people on their toes, but not to any significant degree when I was doing it back in 2015.

I have heard that Economics is fairly straightforward, has a short course, and has good choice in the exam. It could be a good choice for you.

I didn't do Chemistry in school but I have encountered it in college. I believe that it can be a tough subject but generally people who love it do well. Ultimately, you will need to work hard at any subject though.

If you are doing eight subjects, dropping to OL for one or two might reduce the workload a bit. I don't know you and your ability, but I don't know how much I would base my decision on a TY test. You could always try HL English for a bit and drop if it's too difficult and/or too much work. I would probably try to do at least 7 HL subjects unless you are very confident in 6.

c_f_p99

You're definitely right about that TY test;) Ultimately, I might go Chemistry as maybe Economics is something better done as a hobby. Definitely was overexaggerating how bad my English was. BUT I do have serious, and I mean serious issues with timing. I mean the whole reason I did badly in the test was because I only got 40% of it done! Something to improve on over the years, I guess.

spurious

If you like Irish and enjoy it, the 40% for the oral is a hard one to get past. It really is extraordinarily generous and compared to the work you would have to put in for a guaranteed 35-40% on the English HL paper and considering your timing issues, it's a no-brainer.

It's not impossible to do all HL, even I did that back in the Dark Ages, but if you are very confident in your other subjects, you could drop one to OL. I would say (like A97) stick with the HL English for a while and see how it goes. Make sure you do not have the same timing issues in other LC subjects which have essay answers.

I wouldn't mind the JC results. In some subjects 70% of candidates get an A or B. Go with what interests you, or you enjoy.

That 40% irish oral is a game changer I think.

hasdanta

I'm after finishing my first year of TCD Science, and the chemistry modules were by far the hardest. I was a pretty decent Chemistry student (H2 in mocks, dropped to H3 in the LC) and I still found the modules very challenging. I managed to pass them but both chemistry modules were the lowest scores I got in my results (although I didn't really start studying them until like 3 weeks before the exams started). I always felt bad for people that never did chemistry in the LC because if I was finding it difficult with previous experience, I could only imagine how some with no experience may have struggled. Some content of the LC course is covered in college, but they cover certain topics in 2-3 lectures that probably would've taken anywhere from 8-12 classes during the LC. So basically, my recommendation for you would be to definitely do Chemistry if you think there is a possibility of you doing anything science based in the future.

c_f_p99

I've officially decided against Accounting. One last thing to ask, is Economics or Chemistry essay based? Or, more importantly, are the marking schemes for any of the two subjects weird, annoying and/or convoluted? I'm worried that Economics could be so opinionated that it may cause unnecessary hassle in comparison to Chemistry. I love expressing opinions on economic matters normally, but in exam conditions? I'm not so sure after JC English.

rk2301

I don’t have any experience with Economics but Chemistry is definitely not essay based. It’s mostly one sentence answers and short paragraphs/bullet points. The subject has a bit of a reputation for being difficult but with some practice it is very doable. The marking scheme can be harsh at times as you’re expected to know definitions word for word. Also there is a lot of material to learn off but most of the time you have to apply it to questions rather than just regurgitate it onto the page. I would say this makes it a more enjoyable and interesting subject for me. If you enjoy maths you’ll probably like chemistry because there are lots of calculation based questions. Overall it’s one of my favourite subjects and I’d recommend it it to anyone! Having said that, do the subject that you feel like you’ll enjoy the most. The grades will come naturally after that!

c_f_p99

Well regurgitating information onto a page is exactly what I don't need in a subject, so that's clear for Chemistry. I absolutely don't mind a bit of essay writing as long as it's more information-based (eg. History) with some opinions regarding the content. I actually like that. My main concern is whether I have enough background knowledge regarding Chemistry. I often read the Economist and am interested in the states of national and global economies. If this is what Economics is about I'd definitely be up for it. But Chemistry really does seem interesting. I am genuinely interested in it, particularly in atomic and nuclear chemistry. But I don't have any proper background knowledge other than snippets of extra information on the atom. Which do you think I'd be better prepared for and why?

rainbowtrout

c_f_p99 wrote: »

Well regurgitating information onto a page is exactly what I don't need in a subject, so that's clear for Chemistry. I absolutely don't mind a bit of essay writing as long as it's more information-based (eg. History) with some opinions regarding the content. I actually like that. My main concern is whether I have enough background knowledge regarding Chemistry. I often read the Economist and am interested in the states of national and global economies. If this is what Economics is about I'd definitely be up for it. But Chemistry really does seem interesting. I am genuinely interested in it, particularly in atomic and nuclear chemistry. But I don't have any proper background knowledge other than snippets of extra information on the atom. Which do you think I'd be better prepared for and why?

You're not required to have any background done on the subjects aside from what you did for JC, and you'll be exactly the same position as anyone else taking either subject. Why would you think you'd be better prepared for either one?

c_f_p99

I was just curious about it, I guess. I'm not doing these things specifically for the LC and I certainly wouldn't want to either, if that's what you're wondering about. I suppose I'm just weighing the possible benefits of my circumstances. You'll always be better prepared for one thing rather than another. I'm just hoping that I'll make good choices, like any other experience.

UnknownEntity

c_f_p99 wrote:

I've officially decided against Accounting. One last thing to ask, is Economics or Chemistry essay based? Or, more importantly, are the marking schemes for any of the two subjects weird, annoying and/or convoluted? I'm worried that Economics could be so opinionated that it may cause unnecessary hassle in comparison to Chemistry. I love expressing opinions on economic matters normally, but in exam conditions? I'm not so sure after JC English.

Personally I found Chemistry to be very enjoyable, it was one of my subjects for my LC this year. Do not be mistaken though, be prepared to put long and hard hours into it if you want to get the top grades, there's a lot of very specific material on the course that can take some time to get used to. It's the kind of stuff they put on exams to separate grades.

Economics is very essay based, the answers have to be very detailed and explained properly. Chemistry is different, short but VERY precise answers where one or two words can cost you marks.

Anonymouspeep

If you like chemistry and think you would be good at it then definitely pick it . I dropped it 3 months in to fifth year and am majorly regretting it now as I've obtained enough leaving cert points to do any course really but i can't choose dentistry , vet etc due to my lack of chemistry !

c_f_p99

Unknown Entity. When you say essay-based do you mean that answers would be usually much longer than 1.5-2 A4 pages, like History and English? Anything that requires me to write in a similar manner to English is an instant no-no for me.

UnknownEntity

c_f_p99 wrote: »

Unknown Entity. When you say essay-based do you mean that answers would be usually much longer than 1.5-2 A4 pages, like History and English? Anything that requires me to write in a similar manner to English is an instant no-no for me.

Cant really compare with English because the questions in it are worth a lot more marks than the average question in Economics. But to give you a general idea, a long question in economics was around 1.5 to 2 pages in total for me.

c_f_p99

Okay, so I've just looked at an Economics paper and really, everything is all broken down really nicely, just how I'd like it. Single questions don't seem to go beyond 25 marks (which is one and two thirds of a page?). And even they seem to be rare. Unless there's some annoying quirks with the marking scheme, the questions seem to be quite nice. Now I'm only concerned about the timing. This has proved a disaster with English, but has never been a problem with any other subject. Are there huge time constraints in the exam?

UnknownEntity

c_f_p99 wrote:

Okay, so I've just looked at an Economics paper and really, everything is all broken down really nicely, just how I'd like it. Single questions don't seem to go beyond 25 marks (which is one and two thirds of a page?). And even they seem to be rare. Unless there's some annoying quirks with the marking scheme, the questions seem to be quite nice. Now I'm only concerned about the timing. This has proved a disaster with English, but has never been a problem with any other subject. Are there huge time constraints in the exam?

I finished at the very last second in the exam back in June. Meanwhile, had no time issues with ANY other subject so make of that what you will.

c_f_p99

That scares me a little. But I just sort of realised that the reason I tend to do badly timewise in English is because I'm a REALLY slow reader and am rubbish at structuring essays. It's actually nothing to do with being a slow writer. In fact, I actually tend to be one of the first to finish exams like Geography and History. And having a little look at the paper, I can honestly do some of the questions now and scrape a H6. Meanwhile with Chemistry, that wouldn't be the case, although I know they are different kinds of subjects.

I suppose I'm more worried about having to think of different essay structures for different questions than having to write fast. I don't mind opinionated questions as long as they are not long and relate to your knowledge of the syllabus content (and perhaps keeping up to date with economic situations in a BROAD context).

Sorry for the long post there, I know it's getting tiring, but I do need to decide soon.

Oh yeah, and NO learning off essays!!! I can't stand it!

randylonghorn

c_f_p99 wrote: »

Oh yeah, and NO learning off essays!!! I can't stand it!

And it often backfires anyway, when people just parrot off the rote-learned answer without really looking at how the question has been tweaked / what it actually asks!

I would definitely say that approaching an Economics paper would have a lot more in common with how you might approach a History or Geography paper than it would with how you might approach an English paper.

c_f_p99

Back to the OL thing, I'm definitely not doing OL Irish, it's honestly way too easy and higher seems very manageable. I've also gone to an Irish course over the summer as I had literally nothing to do. So I'll probably take both at HL. I'm just wondering though, why very few voted for OL English? Is there some kind of fetish against it. I mean, it's hardly any different from any other subject at OL and practically no courses require it at HL (I mean, very few ENGLISH courses require it at HL for crying out loud!). Seriously though, would it put at a disadvantage in other ways (such as employment and Masters/PHD opportunities) if I were to drop it some time (probably next year) to OL?

rainbowtrout

c_f_p99 wrote: »

Back to the OL thing, I'm definitely not doing OL Irish, it's honestly way too easy and higher seems very manageable. I've also gone to an Irish course over the summer as I had literally nothing to do. So I'll probably take both at HL. I'm just wondering though, why very few voted for OL English? Is there some kind of fetish against it. I mean, it's hardly any different from any other subject at OL and practically no courses require it at HL (I mean, very few ENGLISH courses require it at HL for crying out loud!). Seriously though, would it put at a disadvantage in other ways (such as employment and Masters/PHD opportunities) if I were to drop it some time (probably next year) to OL?

If you're looking to do a Masters/PhD they're gonna be looking at your degree, not your LC results.

c_f_p99

O.K. But I have heard of cases where people can get rejected by employers due to Leaving cert results if there are too many applicants with a similar degree. I know this sounds really silly, but I've just heard from so many people that if your points aren't high enough and if you did foundation subjects (which I won't be doing) it would put you at a big disadvantage. But many people also regard OL English in the same way as they'd regard a foundation subject and they also say that doing that would also put one at a disadvantage. Would it really put me at a disadvantage?

In other words, I'd like to know the potential risks of me doing OL English.

UnknownEntity

c_f_p99 wrote:

In other words, I'd like to know the potential risks of me doing OL English.

Don't know of any risks but I did my LC this year and did OL because the workload for HL is ridiculous for a subject I was never going to count.

That saved time got my 613 and trinity medicine so...... no regrets so far whatsoever.

c_f_p99

How bad is it? I despised the studied literature at Junior Cert not so much because of the texts, but the quotes and the the way you have to implement them into the answer. I just couldn't come up with a set way of answering them without it seeming clumsy. In fact, that same problem exists with every aspect of English for me, but the added stress of learning quotes made that part almost unbearable at times.

I really hope that there isn't a major emphasis on quotes for the LC. I really hate them!

UnknownEntity

c_f_p99 wrote:

How bad is it? I despised the studied literature at Junior Cert not so much because of the texts, but the quotes and the the way you have to implement them into the answer. I just couldn't come up with a set way of answering them without it seeming clumsy. In fact, that same problem exists with every aspect of English for me, but the added stress of learning quotes made that part almost unbearable at times.

c_f_p99 wrote:

I really hope that there isn't a major emphasis on quotes for the LC. I really hate them!

I'm not the guy to answer this but I had very similar problems to you. I had no problems learning everything but applying them in such a way that I could get a H1 was near to impossible. The amount of work needed did not correlate to the points I was getting so I dropped.

One thing I can say though, my God is there an emphasis on quotes...

randylonghorn

c_f_p99 wrote: »

O.K. But I have heard of cases where people can get rejected by employers due to Leaving cert results if there are too many applicants with a similar degree. I know this sounds really silly, but I've just heard from so many people that if your points aren't high enough and if you did foundation subjects (which I won't be doing) it would put you at a big disadvantage. But many people also regard OL English in the same way as they'd regard a foundation subject and they also say that doing that would also put one at a disadvantage. Would it really put me at a disadvantage?

In other words, I'd like to know the potential risks of me doing OL English.

Few enough tbh, I've sat on a fair few interview panels as an extern, and while I've certainly known employers glance at LC results and in particular at Maths and English, they would be looking to see a decent pass rather than whether OL or HL.

What can happen occasionally where there's 400 applicants for 2 jobs is that HR people can come up with some fairly arbitrary cut-offs just to screen out as many as possible at the initial stage, but there's not much point stressing overly about that at this stage, you might never encounter it.

RBT is right when she says that when applying for postgrad, LC results are irrelevant.

c_f_p99 wrote: »

I really hope that there isn't a major emphasis on quotes for the LC. I really hate them!

Record them, play them when out for a walk or doing chores or whatever, you might only be half-listening but if you do it often enough they'll sink in anyway eventually.

It was never my strongest point either tbh, understanding something was fine but my brain doesn't "do" rote learning. Hell, I can barely remember my own telephone number!!

c_f_p99

Everything's sorted. I've decided to do Economics as I'm more interested in it and because there is just as high a probability of me going into a Business-like degree as a science-like degree. To give you some perspective, I'm the kinda guy who'd read articles concerning the national budget and would look up information on the kinds of ways organisations gain money and how it's managed. Stuff like bonds, investments that sort of thing.

I'll try and start anew with English (for the third time lol!). My problems are the fact that I read practically zero novels (one book this year), although I read a lot of informative articles online and subscribe to the Economist. But no short stories or fan-fic whatsoever. So while I may have solid grammar and know quite a lot of technical vocabulary, my writing fleuncy is atrocious and haven't written a single passage, paragraph or essay since the JC. I'm worried that I'll be really behind because of this. And it's a pity since I have plenty of ideas to work with.

That all been said, thank you very much for all your help. I wouldn't have been able to come to this conclusion without you.

c_f_p99

Well, now that I'm in 6th year, do I regret the choice? Well, I like the subject a little more than at JC, but I still hate it. Poetry is an absolute nightmare and the only poets I like are Dickenson and Frost (but Frost's unlikely to appear). However, I ended up with a H2 in the mocks? How?! I swear that I'd have gotten a H6 if I were lucky. I only knew 3 poems in total (seriously), never once opened a book for Comparative (never did an essay before either, I forgot that you actually had to compare the texts midway through my essay) and only Hamlet (my single text) was somewhat passable. Unseen was a load of gibberish. I got lucky in Paper 1, though, to be fair. But I seriously didn't deserve the grade.

I do, however, regret Economics. Such a boring pile of crap. So much crap to learn, unbelievably harsh marking schemes and the course has a LOT of learning off. Little to no logic whatsoever in the subject: even English is clearer in how you answer questions. I mostly read the Economist and absolutely nothing in that is relevant to the subject whatsoever. It definitely made the subject seem more interesting than the LC course. Micro and Macro are both pretty crap: Micro is ridiculously boring with the nastiest marking scheme I've ever come across, Macro is (slightly) less harshly marked, but the questions can be pretty unpredictable and outlandishly tough at times. A joke of a syllabus: 2.5 pages of waffle, giving you little direction as to what needs to be learner, the document is seriously useless and most of the stuff that comes up in the exam aren't mentioned at all. I've also no clue how to improve on it. Trying to get a H1 in it is a serious act of frustration that is simply unmatched by any other subject. I don't know what Chemistry is like, but it sure must be way better than this!

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

If you like Irish and enjoy it, the 40% for the oral is a hard one to get past. It really is extraordinarily generous and compared to the work you would have to put in for a guaranteed 35-40% on the English HL paper and considering your timing issues, it's a no-brainer.

It's not impossible to do all HL, even I did that back in the Dark Ages, but if you are very confident in your other subjects, you could drop one to OL. I would say (like A97) stick with the HL English for a while and see how it goes. Make sure you do not have the same timing issues in other LC subjects which have essay answers.

I wouldn't mind the JC results. In some subjects 70% of candidates get an A or B. Go with what interests you, or you enjoy.

That 40% irish oral is a game changer I think.

:pac::pac::pac:

Spurious predicting the fall out of LC 2020 almost two years in advance.:D

c_f_p99

rainbowtrout wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

Spurious predicting the fall out of LC 2020 almost two years in advance.:D

Yeah, though me doing Music is even better! Free 50%!

Pity that the rest of the exam isn't easy to do well in. I had thought composing would be ridiculously easy like the JC (like not something you have to study for) but oh god, I couldn't have been more wrong. It's comically difficult together high marks in this section, even if it seems really easy.

rainbowtrout

So I believe from hearing the music teacher talk about it at school.

c_f_p99

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So I believe from hearing the music teacher talk about it at school.

From my teacher, I've heard that the average mark for the melody is 15/40, a H7/ Grade E! Nobody had ever gotten above 36 in it. I mean, even English isn't that ridiculous. The listening paper also has a stupid unseen listening that is impossible prepare to prepare for and an annoying Irish Music essay that is a crazy amount of work for 2.5% of your grade! Some topics in that make me want to pull my hair out. It's still probably nothing compared to Art History though. The rest is grand, even easy though.