bk wrote: » Huh, if the power goes down, Siemens will continue to work as a standard bells and lights alarm and will make lots of noise. You will also get a notification in the app that your system is offline (quick polling). Why don't you tell us what happens when HKC's service was down a few days ago? Or what if a burglar uses a jammer? And HKC's 5 hours polling? No prefect system, all trades offs, but Siemens comms and polling doesn't seem to be anything special.
KoolKid wrote: » I think you need to broaden your horizons before presuming that. The Vanderbilt V2 portal is way ahead of anything there regarding engineer functions. I could rattle off all the functions it has all night but you still wouldn't see it because it's not what you want to use. Even the GSD Portal has more features than HKCs app or Smart link which looks like something from Windows 98.
KoolKid wrote: » I think we have been seeing some nice balance in this thread recently. Is everyone questioning HKC driven by hatred??? There's also a lot of people questioning on the FB page as you know. Will you be accusing all them of hatred. �� HKC, GSD, Vanderbilt, UTC etc are all just company's not people. I find it strange that you take any criticism of a company so personally and accuse people of hate because they choose to look at alternative options in the market. Anyway I suppose that is just an example of how some people push the product they want to use. As for the free options vs paid.. All those on the free service weren't affected by a second major outage the other day. My phone wasn't hopping all day with irate customers wondering why their alarms were not communicating. I'd say that was scary for some if this happened after an alarm event. Even scarier if it was a monitored system that went without a response. The thing about duel path communication that is being sold to customers is that it's still going through a single path that is the services like Securecom. Anyway, it's good to see all these issues being raised. It gives posters a good view of both sides of the differences between these services.
KoolKid wrote: » For the record I am not I am not commercially aligned with any systems or manufacturer. I have lots of HKC systems installed. I have NEVER stated I don't install them As I have have said over and over there is no system that's perfect for everything. Different options and different features for different customers needs and wants. Imagine a world with only iPhones and no Android. Only Fords and no Mazda. Only Sky and no Virgin Media Only Burger King no McDonald's Choice is great and different people have different tastes wants and needs from a product. If you come up with a brand that suits everyone you will be a billionaire or trillionaire. It seems there is more blindness by love than hate.
kub wrote: » Yes the Siemens system will keep running, I am very familiar with their equipment, I have been using it long before the internet. I am referring specifically to notifications and correct notifications. Free means that if the power is off you will be notified of a Comms issue, so if some low life decides to kick in your front door while the power is off, yes the system will activate, assuming it is set, but with Free you will not be notified of the actual break in.
kub wrote: » Therefore the Comms issue could become a case of boy crying wolf until the unfortunate real event occurs. Personally i would not like to be the installer there when the customer starts pointing fingers as to who is at fault and who the professional should be etc.
kub wrote: » What is this about HKC's 5 hour polling time that is constantly referred to ? Are you guys actually stating that minute 1 is when the comms fails and bang on 5 hours later there is a notification, is it ?
kub wrote: » As you may or may not be aware professional installers, as per En50131 and indeed those of us who are not desperate for work, do what is known as a Risk Assessment. If a potential customer ticks a lot of boxes in the high risk category then the system that will be proposed will address such minor details as polling times etc.
kub wrote: » If there is a chance of GSM blockers being used, then it is not too wise to go with a GSM option, is there ? Obviously in this category, or in any of my own, I would not at all be recommending self notification via by a router only.
kub wrote: » Explain away as been mentioned by others previously about the Free this that and the other and the Evil Demon that is HKC. But I would not, as experience has shown me, people will always choose what is free, I find it is never the best option in reality as the old saying goes, you pay for what you get. And these same people will be the very ones that will sue you if the worst thing happens to them.
KoolKid wrote: » I think we have been seeing some nice balance in this thread recently. Is everyone questioning HKC driven by hatred??? There's also a lot of people questioning on the FB page as you know. Will you be accusing all them of hatred. �� HKC, GSD, Vanderbilt, UTC etc are all just company's not people. I find it strange that you take any criticism of a company so personally and accuse people of hate because they choose to look at alternative options in the market. Anyway I suppose that is just an example of how some people push the product they want to use. As for the free options vs paid.. All those on the free service weren't affected by a second major outage the other day. My phone wasn't hopping all day with irate customers wondering why their alarms were not communicating. I'd say that was scary for some if this happened after an alarm event. Even scarier if it was a monitored system that went without a response. The thing about duel path communication that is being sold to customers is that it's still going through a single path that is the services like Securecom. Anyway, it's good to see all these issues being raised. It gives posters a good view of both sides of the differences between these services.
kub wrote: » Speaking of irate customers, the company you work for must be getting those on a continuous basis so considering the issues with ' one of the manufacturers you always recommend' Would you like to tell us more about GSM failure alerts in the middle of the night and when the electricity goes how the system has to be reconnected to the customers Wifi? At that rate warranty calls must be costing the company you work with an absolute fortune and i suppose customers must be wondering about the quality of the equipment.
bk wrote: » Exactly, you will be notified quickly (about 1 minute) that the system is offline and take action. Call a neighbour to check what is going on (even just ask them can they hear if your alarm is going off) or jump in a car and go home to check on it. That also ignores the fact that you can easily add a GSM module for dual path comms to Siemens and other panels if you so desire it. After all the ideal setup, where money was no obstacle, would be dual path + quick polling. BTW My preferred solution to the power out problem would be IP cameras overlooking your garden and where power comes into your home. Would allow you to check what happened just before the power went out. Was there someone in your garden 30 seconds before then you know what was up. Also has added advantages of helping to secure your garden and car in the drive way and option to talk to callers at the door without opening it or even when out. Helps defeat a very common way many burglaries happen.
bk wrote: » Power outages really aren't that common and you can always double check with a neighbour if it is effecting an entire area or not. I've Logitech Circle cameras for over 2 years now. They have 5 minute polling. They have been offline only once in that time.
bk wrote: » No, but 5 hours or hell even 1 hour isn't even close to being acceptable. Someone could break in and clean out every stick of furniture in that time. That is why the ideal really would be dual path + quick polling + cloud IP cams. [QUOTE\] The average domestic burglary takes only 2 to 3 minutes, polling does not matter, it is the capability of the alarm system to activate and notify, is what matters. A properly professionally installed system will complete this task. bk wrote: » I'm genuinely shocked that you thinking polling times is a minor detail :eek: I'm aware that only the higher EN grades require 1 minute polling, as would typically used by a jewellery store and that grade 2 as is usually used in homes only needs 5 hour polling. But that is what I mean by sticking dogmatically to a standard, while falling behind where the rest of the market is going. I've a SmartThings hub that cost €60 and a Logitech Circle for €70 that have 5 minute or less polling. And a close to €1,000 professionally installed system can only do 5 hours shows that there is something seriously wrong. Quick and frequent polling is cheap and easy to do when your comms path is over wired broadband. I can see why you would want much less frequent polling over GSM channels due to high data charges of mobile services. But that is why it is better to use wifi/broadband as the primary path. With GSM just an infrequently used backup channel. You can then do frequent, cheap and easy polling. It helps cover all attack vectors. [QUOTE\] As i have already mentioned this is a Home Security Forum, therefore as this is an Irish site and as it is in the EU then we comply with EN standards. That EN standard is EN50131 and I have my doubts that people in SmartThings or Logitech worry much about having to comply with that particular standard. Again it is the capacity of the system to transmit signals in the event of an activation is what matters, not polling. Polling ticks boxes but they will not tell you your home is being broken into. I am surprised actually you brought standards into this, does that Yale toy alarm system which you mentioned you were installing earlier in this thread comply with EN50131? bk wrote: » GSM blockers aren't expensive, they are cheap and easy to come by. If someone is willing to cut your power, then it is as easy for them to have one in their pocket and then quick polling becomes important. [QUOTE\] You are aware I trust that this is a public forum and anyone could have read that? Is there any other pointers you would like to give thieves ? As a matter of fact what becomes important in that eventuality is the Risk Assessment component of EN50131 and the system as installed should reflect that and therefore if they are going to all that trouble, then any properly professionally installed system would still be capable of transmitting signals from that premises. bk wrote: » Seriously, clam down! No one is calling HKC evil!! If HKC and installers cared so much about their customers, then why for years were they selling systems with simple voice or text dialers over PSTN, with zero polling and charging €150 per year for monitoring? A simple snip of the phone cable and the monitoring station would know no better. Yet installers were still quiet happy to sell those sort of systems and take €150 a year off people, without telling them of the glaring security hole that every burglar knew. Still loads of systems like that all over the country. In fact both my two sisters and parents systems are like that! And yes these are HKC systems installed by PSA registered folks. As is my HKC system, which was installed by a PSA folk. It was installed with no monitoring, no external bell box and the panel placed directly 1m above the keypad in the hall near the door :rolleyes: So don't start with me about risk assessment nonsense. [QUOTE\] Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much. Sorry but i am laughing at your comment about HKC for years selling systems that could only send voice and text over PSTN diallers, look I don't know how old you are but I trust you are aware that broadband was not around always. Now with regard to guys cutting phone lines, well here again, homes of people which made this a possibility had systems installed that reflected the risk and even if the phone line was cut, then the systems were still capable of transmitting alarm signals. With regard to your own system, well here you are now bitching about it, it is a pity you did not take that up with the installer at the time. Can you remember what you payed for it? Should you have any issues, just get onto his certification body, you will find their details on the cert he gave you, or did he ? If you have any issues about Risk Assessments and find them nonsense, then please lets not discuss standards any more. That was what was all was available on low risk systems at the time. There was no such thing as polling, no broadband and no Wifi either and we all managed grand too. bk wrote: » Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine. The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house. My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems. GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money. Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want. Cloud IP cams storage for a little more. Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it. And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past. Afte rall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us. And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US. Do you think that everything in the US is cool and that we always copy it? Not exactly a Utopian society and God knows they have their own problems. Are you aware that we are one of the few countries in the world that still use inertia shock sensors in domestic alarm systems? I hope that we do not go down that road of contacts and beams as the way forward. I know my domestic customers rather have their alarms switched on while they are in their homes and can move around unrestricted within, meanwhile should some low life decide to attempt to break into their homes the system will activate before said low life even gains access. As for the lots of people just going for basic systems without notification, well it is not better than our society is getting, it is worse and I for one educate my own customers to go for some notification option and they do so we do not really fit systems anymore without some form of notification. Again, you are aware that the crappy single path PSTN was as good as you could get pre broadband and mobile phones ? Well other than radio communicators of course and i bet you did not know that we could set all these units up for test calls with alarm monitoring centres back then? But as per my mention already about polling and indeed test calls, these are not the things that matter when the break in occurs. So to put us back on topic, I hope also that HKC go down the route of integrating with home automation etc, at least then they will probably be the only ones with systems that may comply with EN50131. Rather than computer nerds designing security systems.
bk wrote: » I'm genuinely shocked that you thinking polling times is a minor detail :eek: I'm aware that only the higher EN grades require 1 minute polling, as would typically used by a jewellery store and that grade 2 as is usually used in homes only needs 5 hour polling. But that is what I mean by sticking dogmatically to a standard, while falling behind where the rest of the market is going. I've a SmartThings hub that cost €60 and a Logitech Circle for €70 that have 5 minute or less polling. And a close to €1,000 professionally installed system can only do 5 hours shows that there is something seriously wrong. Quick and frequent polling is cheap and easy to do when your comms path is over wired broadband. I can see why you would want much less frequent polling over GSM channels due to high data charges of mobile services. But that is why it is better to use wifi/broadband as the primary path. With GSM just an infrequently used backup channel. You can then do frequent, cheap and easy polling. It helps cover all attack vectors. [QUOTE\] As i have already mentioned this is a Home Security Forum, therefore as this is an Irish site and as it is in the EU then we comply with EN standards. That EN standard is EN50131 and I have my doubts that people in SmartThings or Logitech worry much about having to comply with that particular standard. Again it is the capacity of the system to transmit signals in the event of an activation is what matters, not polling. Polling ticks boxes but they will not tell you your home is being broken into. I am surprised actually you brought standards into this, does that Yale toy alarm system which you mentioned you were installing earlier in this thread comply with EN50131? bk wrote: » GSM blockers aren't expensive, they are cheap and easy to come by. If someone is willing to cut your power, then it is as easy for them to have one in their pocket and then quick polling becomes important. [QUOTE\] You are aware I trust that this is a public forum and anyone could have read that? Is there any other pointers you would like to give thieves ? As a matter of fact what becomes important in that eventuality is the Risk Assessment component of EN50131 and the system as installed should reflect that and therefore if they are going to all that trouble, then any properly professionally installed system would still be capable of transmitting signals from that premises. bk wrote: » Seriously, clam down! No one is calling HKC evil!! If HKC and installers cared so much about their customers, then why for years were they selling systems with simple voice or text dialers over PSTN, with zero polling and charging €150 per year for monitoring? A simple snip of the phone cable and the monitoring station would know no better. Yet installers were still quiet happy to sell those sort of systems and take €150 a year off people, without telling them of the glaring security hole that every burglar knew. Still loads of systems like that all over the country. In fact both my two sisters and parents systems are like that! And yes these are HKC systems installed by PSA registered folks. As is my HKC system, which was installed by a PSA folk. It was installed with no monitoring, no external bell box and the panel placed directly 1m above the keypad in the hall near the door :rolleyes: So don't start with me about risk assessment nonsense. [QUOTE\] Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much. Sorry but i am laughing at your comment about HKC for years selling systems that could only send voice and text over PSTN diallers, look I don't know how old you are but I trust you are aware that broadband was not around always. Now with regard to guys cutting phone lines, well here again, homes of people which made this a possibility had systems installed that reflected the risk and even if the phone line was cut, then the systems were still capable of transmitting alarm signals. With regard to your own system, well here you are now bitching about it, it is a pity you did not take that up with the installer at the time. Can you remember what you payed for it? Should you have any issues, just get onto his certification body, you will find their details on the cert he gave you, or did he ? If you have any issues about Risk Assessments and find them nonsense, then please lets not discuss standards any more. That was what was all was available on low risk systems at the time. There was no such thing as polling, no broadband and no Wifi either and we all managed grand too. bk wrote: » Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine. The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house. My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems. GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money. Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want. Cloud IP cams storage for a little more. Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it. And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past. Afte rall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us. And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US. Do you think that everything in the US is cool and that we always copy it? Not exactly a Utopian society and God knows they have their own problems. Are you aware that we are one of the few countries in the world that still use inertia shock sensors in domestic alarm systems? I hope that we do not go down that road of contacts and beams as the way forward. I know my domestic customers rather have their alarms switched on while they are in their homes and can move around unrestricted within, meanwhile should some low life decide to attempt to break into their homes the system will activate before said low life even gains access. As for the lots of people just going for basic systems without notification, well it is not better than our society is getting, it is worse and I for one educate my own customers to go for some notification option and they do so we do not really fit systems anymore without some form of notification. Again, you are aware that the crappy single path PSTN was as good as you could get pre broadband and mobile phones ? Well other than radio communicators of course and i bet you did not know that we could set all these units up for test calls with alarm monitoring centres back then? But as per my mention already about polling and indeed test calls, these are not the things that matter when the break in occurs. So to put us back on topic, I hope also that HKC go down the route of integrating with home automation etc, at least then they will probably be the only ones with systems that may comply with EN50131. Rather than computer nerds designing security systems.
bk wrote: » GSM blockers aren't expensive, they are cheap and easy to come by. If someone is willing to cut your power, then it is as easy for them to have one in their pocket and then quick polling becomes important. [QUOTE\] You are aware I trust that this is a public forum and anyone could have read that? Is there any other pointers you would like to give thieves ? As a matter of fact what becomes important in that eventuality is the Risk Assessment component of EN50131 and the system as installed should reflect that and therefore if they are going to all that trouble, then any properly professionally installed system would still be capable of transmitting signals from that premises. bk wrote: » Seriously, clam down! No one is calling HKC evil!! If HKC and installers cared so much about their customers, then why for years were they selling systems with simple voice or text dialers over PSTN, with zero polling and charging €150 per year for monitoring? A simple snip of the phone cable and the monitoring station would know no better. Yet installers were still quiet happy to sell those sort of systems and take €150 a year off people, without telling them of the glaring security hole that every burglar knew. Still loads of systems like that all over the country. In fact both my two sisters and parents systems are like that! And yes these are HKC systems installed by PSA registered folks. As is my HKC system, which was installed by a PSA folk. It was installed with no monitoring, no external bell box and the panel placed directly 1m above the keypad in the hall near the door :rolleyes: So don't start with me about risk assessment nonsense. [QUOTE\] Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much. Sorry but i am laughing at your comment about HKC for years selling systems that could only send voice and text over PSTN diallers, look I don't know how old you are but I trust you are aware that broadband was not around always. Now with regard to guys cutting phone lines, well here again, homes of people which made this a possibility had systems installed that reflected the risk and even if the phone line was cut, then the systems were still capable of transmitting alarm signals. With regard to your own system, well here you are now bitching about it, it is a pity you did not take that up with the installer at the time. Can you remember what you payed for it? Should you have any issues, just get onto his certification body, you will find their details on the cert he gave you, or did he ? If you have any issues about Risk Assessments and find them nonsense, then please lets not discuss standards any more. That was what was all was available on low risk systems at the time. There was no such thing as polling, no broadband and no Wifi either and we all managed grand too. bk wrote: » Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine. The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house. My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems. GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money. Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want. Cloud IP cams storage for a little more. Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it. And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past. Afte rall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us. And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US. Do you think that everything in the US is cool and that we always copy it? Not exactly a Utopian society and God knows they have their own problems. Are you aware that we are one of the few countries in the world that still use inertia shock sensors in domestic alarm systems? I hope that we do not go down that road of contacts and beams as the way forward. I know my domestic customers rather have their alarms switched on while they are in their homes and can move around unrestricted within, meanwhile should some low life decide to attempt to break into their homes the system will activate before said low life even gains access. As for the lots of people just going for basic systems without notification, well it is not better than our society is getting, it is worse and I for one educate my own customers to go for some notification option and they do so we do not really fit systems anymore without some form of notification. Again, you are aware that the crappy single path PSTN was as good as you could get pre broadband and mobile phones ? Well other than radio communicators of course and i bet you did not know that we could set all these units up for test calls with alarm monitoring centres back then? But as per my mention already about polling and indeed test calls, these are not the things that matter when the break in occurs. So to put us back on topic, I hope also that HKC go down the route of integrating with home automation etc, at least then they will probably be the only ones with systems that may comply with EN50131. Rather than computer nerds designing security systems.
bk wrote: » Seriously, clam down! No one is calling HKC evil!! If HKC and installers cared so much about their customers, then why for years were they selling systems with simple voice or text dialers over PSTN, with zero polling and charging €150 per year for monitoring? A simple snip of the phone cable and the monitoring station would know no better. Yet installers were still quiet happy to sell those sort of systems and take €150 a year off people, without telling them of the glaring security hole that every burglar knew. Still loads of systems like that all over the country. In fact both my two sisters and parents systems are like that! And yes these are HKC systems installed by PSA registered folks. As is my HKC system, which was installed by a PSA folk. It was installed with no monitoring, no external bell box and the panel placed directly 1m above the keypad in the hall near the door :rolleyes: So don't start with me about risk assessment nonsense. [QUOTE\] Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much. Sorry but i am laughing at your comment about HKC for years selling systems that could only send voice and text over PSTN diallers, look I don't know how old you are but I trust you are aware that broadband was not around always. Now with regard to guys cutting phone lines, well here again, homes of people which made this a possibility had systems installed that reflected the risk and even if the phone line was cut, then the systems were still capable of transmitting alarm signals. With regard to your own system, well here you are now bitching about it, it is a pity you did not take that up with the installer at the time. Can you remember what you payed for it? Should you have any issues, just get onto his certification body, you will find their details on the cert he gave you, or did he ? If you have any issues about Risk Assessments and find them nonsense, then please lets not discuss standards any more. That was what was all was available on low risk systems at the time. There was no such thing as polling, no broadband and no Wifi either and we all managed grand too. bk wrote: » Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine. The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house. My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems. GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money. Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want. Cloud IP cams storage for a little more. Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it. And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past. Afte rall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us. And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US. Do you think that everything in the US is cool and that we always copy it? Not exactly a Utopian society and God knows they have their own problems. Are you aware that we are one of the few countries in the world that still use inertia shock sensors in domestic alarm systems? I hope that we do not go down that road of contacts and beams as the way forward. I know my domestic customers rather have their alarms switched on while they are in their homes and can move around unrestricted within, meanwhile should some low life decide to attempt to break into their homes the system will activate before said low life even gains access. As for the lots of people just going for basic systems without notification, well it is not better than our society is getting, it is worse and I for one educate my own customers to go for some notification option and they do so we do not really fit systems anymore without some form of notification. Again, you are aware that the crappy single path PSTN was as good as you could get pre broadband and mobile phones ? Well other than radio communicators of course and i bet you did not know that we could set all these units up for test calls with alarm monitoring centres back then? But as per my mention already about polling and indeed test calls, these are not the things that matter when the break in occurs. So to put us back on topic, I hope also that HKC go down the route of integrating with home automation etc, at least then they will probably be the only ones with systems that may comply with EN50131. Rather than computer nerds designing security systems.
bk wrote: » Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine. The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house. My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems. GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money. Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want. Cloud IP cams storage for a little more. Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it. And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past. Afte rall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us. And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US.
KoolKid wrote: » No issues with that or with customers. Baffling why you are constantly more concerned with attacking me personally when you get upset because some people disagree with your option on a particular manufacturer. Anyway as you are so interested in the company I work for we have1000s of happy customers with the system they wanted. No issues with comms as ours have IP back up also. Speaking of comms problems.. As an installer I would be more concerned when people's apps and monitoring goes down for many hours with no explanation. A break in there or a panic alarm not received would get you more than an irate customer. That would be more likely to get you sued as you mentioned earlier.
kub wrote: » The HKC system as i have already mentioned ticks all boxes with regard to domestic installations and that has World GPRS and back up Wifi / Lan on the one unit for notification. So in a situation of a power cut here HKC would win hands down as no one would need to panic and jump into a car or disturb a neighbor because if there was a burglary during a power cut the system would still be working as normal and would have the capability to transmit Intruder signals.
kub wrote: » You cannot just say that about power outages, as i am writing this I have the ESB power App open on my phone. It is a calm day and we have: Power cuts in: Cong, 39 customers affected. Claregalway, 11 customers affected. Birr, 31 customers affected. Ballinderry, 87 customers affected Finea, 24 customers affected. Grange (by Sutton ), 59 customers affected. Sallynoggin Road, 2058 customers affected. Kyletaun, 20 customers affected. Goresbridge, 41 customers affected. Graigue, 103 customers affected. So is that a couple of hundred people there who have free notification and worried about whether or not their alarms might be activating. Hopefully a lot of them have some payed for options and have peace of mind.
kub wrote: » That is why the ideal really would be dual path + quick polling + cloud IP cams.
kub wrote: » Polling ticks boxes but they will not tell you your home is being broken into.
kub wrote: » Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much.
kub wrote: » Well see, i take exception at your constant ' one trick pony' comment. HKC are head and shoulders above any other manufacturer for domestic Intruder alarm systems in this country. End of story.
kub wrote: » Now just to get your facts right there, during the week there were intermittent faults, not a full break down that lasted hours, so lets keep the facts right please. There is very interesting technical experience available to us as you are only too aware on the FB page.
kub wrote: » Guys are straight and tell it as it is, I know an installer personally who had a terrible ordeal with one of the manufacturers you recommend, so much so he is not using them anymore. Oh and this guy knows this game inside out so he is far from inexperienced.
KoolKid wrote: » Ticks all the boxs in your opinion, obviousally because that's the one you want to sell the customer along with recurring subscriptions. As you can see from reading through some threads that is not everyone's opinion.People have the right to choose & be offered choice no matter what product or service they are purchasing. You are constantly making promotional post about how perfect this HKC equipment & service is.How reliable this duel path service is & how useless everything else is. Where were all these people left during the week when the service was totally down for many hours? What notification would they have got?
KoolKid wrote: » Again , how many 100s of people were in the same boat when Securecom was down? Also not for the 1st time as I am sure you are aware. Speaking as an installer to be perfectly honest all this whole power fail threat is a fudge to sell the service & product to the customer you want to sell. In almost 30 years in the industry I have only once seen power being cut in an attempted break in. I have never had a single customer broken into during a power cut. Still amazes me how all of a sudden all those systems we were installing for all those years are suddenly useless. Voice dialler USLESSS, Text Dialler USELESS (Yet HKC were happily selling that feature for years)
KoolKid wrote: » If quick polling is ideal then I presume you find 5 hours unacceptable, It will tell you more than being notified of a total comms failure 5 hours later.
KoolKid wrote: » So again someone who doesn't agree with your opinion of one particular brand hates that company.? Its a business, a brand, not a person. Why do you constantly take it all so personal. I don't hate anyone or anything. I just don't agree with your view of one company.
KoolKid wrote: » The FB page also tells a different story than that. The explanation.. Oh yes. A network problem? As they are international SIM & are backed up by IP it must have been every mobile network & every broadband provider. Amazing, not one of our monitoring customers on International sims got any comms down.Neither did any of them on their free broadband service. You don't always get what you pay for I guess
KoolKid wrote: » If you go through installers you will find someone who has had terrible experiences with any brand you can think of. In fact that would be true about just about any product or service. Have a look over the Talk To forums.People have issues with different providers every day. Do you see those who think those company's are great attacking everyone else & claiming hatred. People here are simply giving opinions & comparing options. Some good information for all the end users here hopefully.
kub wrote: » Not just in my opinion but in that of hundreds of installers in this country, they must be doing something right when you consider their market share and the fact that a respected multinational has taken over HKC.
kub wrote: » If people have, as you mentioned, the right to choose & be offered choice no matter what product or service, then how come you only ever mention Vanderbilt and GSD in your replies to people who come on here looking for information on new installations.
kub wrote: » Surely you can see it is you are the one who is guilty there, i mean why is it that you do not mention as an option the manufacturer with the biggest market share? Instead you actually warn people off,
kub wrote: » In none of those posts as i have quoted there, did you advise anyone as to the shortcomings of these Free options in the event of a power cut. That is not very professional of you, neither is it fair to people who do not know any better.
kub wrote: » Before you bring in your usual bull about polling times, these things do not have anything to do with actually reporting alarm activations which are not possible with Free in the event of a power cut. Which we had today an ordinary day, calm weather and almost 2,500 premises, were without electricity at that time today when i checked the ESB power App, when one of your buddies mistakenly mentioned that power cuts were a rear occurrence.
kub wrote: » I know that you are somehow limited as to HKC and Securecomm, but Securecomm was not down at all at anytime this week.
kub wrote: » To be fair to HKC they saw an Eircom service at the time that was not really being utilised by consumers and they introduced Text diallers which did not cost people anything other than retaining their land lines.
kub wrote: » Oh that old peach again, As i have previously mentioned your Free = No Notification of Alarm activation in the event of a power cut. With the HKC option, you do of course get notified, not only of the Mains failure but of any subsequent alarm activation while the power is off.
kub wrote: » So if that is the case, how come you never ever say anything positive about HKC ? I don't take it personal at all KoolKid, it is your good self that is portraying your issues with HKC.
kub wrote: » Are you sure you don't hate anyone or anything?
kub wrote: » Interesting all the same though how you cannot you cannot agree with the success of HKC, their market share and indeed their success.
kub wrote: » See with your around here you are not really giving end users all options that are available to them, you only ever mention 2 manufacturers as portrayed earlier.
KoolKid wrote: » It is also the opinion of hundreds more who choose to use other systems.
KoolKid wrote: » You mean as opposed to offing just 1 system and constantly posting sounding like a commercial break for that brand. If people choose to want any system I will install it for them. As BK said earlier some do not offer that choice. Many don't even inform customers of the options available.
KoolKid wrote: » I would advice people of the options & how some systems would tie them to subscriptions for the life of the system if they want to continue to use their apps. Those are the facts of it. When it comes to Phonewatch you warn people off in the same way from getting tied into something. The difference is you sell one & you don't like the other. Which by the was also has a large market share. Funny that.
KoolKid wrote: » People are well aware of the differences and are able to choose for themselves. Yet again you seem more concerned about attacking me /my business practices than anything else. Your agenda is pretty clear to all at this stange.
KoolKid wrote: » Amazing how something that HKCs offing is so poor at is irrelevant.
KoolKid wrote: » But yet lots of peoples HKC alarms were. Thats very concerning don't you think.
KoolKid wrote: » But did you not notify customers of how useless this service was as it relied on a single pair of wires coming from your house & you wouldn't get any notifications if the line was down?
KoolKid wrote: » Free will notify you of the broadband being down. Also of a smash & grab scenario if the connection goes down after an alarm event or entry start.
KoolKid wrote: » So why do you get so aggressive when anyone says anything bad about HKC. You also constantly feel the need to come at me personally about who I work for & my work practices. I have said so . No whether you want to believe me or not is up to you. If you don't I'm sure you would have no problem calling me a liar.
KoolKid wrote: » I have never said they weren't successful.Do they feel the need to be told their loved.:) In all forms of business there are successful company's out there. But there is no company, no matter how successful, that is right for everyone.
KoolKid wrote: » Again as opposed to promoting the one all the time. They have all ready go the information about HKC & they are looking for alternatives. In work,Thats because in most cases they are calling me because their installers refuse to sell them what they want or they left their previous installer for not giving them all the information.Likewise they have had some quotes and were wary of the company because they were only pushing the one product. I would be the same, no matter what product or service I was pricing to be honest. You have never been on a site survey with me. HKC is regularly discussed as an option, but usually the customer hasn't been given all the facts to make up their mind.
KoolKid wrote: » All the way through this thread it reads the same. You like one system, some other posters like different options. Thats life. Why not just accept peoples different opinions instead of getting aggressive, personal & trying to undermine everything you don't agree with.
KoolKid wrote: » As usual you really are going over the same things over and over and over.
KoolKid wrote: » I am not getting into these picky rows you seem intent on having with everyone who disagrees with you.
KoolKid wrote: » If people want free optionthat's up to them. They are coming on here and elsewhere and doing their research. Your whole sales pitch on selling ongoing charges is what if a power cut, what if a power cut what if a power cut. What if the service goes down? What if someone uses a jammer and cuts the power.?
KoolKid wrote: » As I have said, no system does it all. I'm not going to pretend it does. I'm not on here to advertise.
KoolKid wrote: » What have Siemens and GSD got over HKC? They have free or paid for options so you are not tied to subscriptions for the life of your alarm. Siemens Vanderbilt is far superior with their connectivity options and integration. I ll also admit they are not perfect and there are some great solutions out there that do more. They both have their own options for GSM back up that you crave so much, again without locking you to subscriptions for the life of the system. They both have muct faster polling times in the event of all comms being lost. Siemens Vanderbilt can be lower than a minute. GSD can be 5 minutes and still cheaper than HKCs 5 hours or 90 minutes.
KoolKid wrote: » These are the facts of it. I'm sure plenty have got some good information from some good posts and opinions here from a number of different posters. No doubt you will be back on the attack. I'm not getting into any personal attacking here so I'm out of this thread. All the best. KK
2011 wrote: » 4) Sorry BK but I wouldn't accept a present of a Yale alarm IMHO any alarm that will not accept inertia shock sensors is pretty useless (this is also the opinion of most professional alarm installers). From what you say the app sounds good, but I simply don't rate these systems.
bk wrote: » I agree with almost everything you say. Just on this:
My ideal system would be a hybrid of a HKC and Yale system. The shocks and PIR's of HKC, perhaps with updated encryption and new Z-Wave chipset, damn impressive, with the Yale app and notifications and some other hardware features that I like from it, the hub etc.
On the shocks, the shocks of my HKC 812 didn't work anyway. I suspect because of how thick my window frames and glass is. The Glass is laminated security glass (and internally bedded), you would need to take a sledgehammer to get through it. This shows the importance of designing things to be "secure by default" and that really physical security is more important then electronic.
My Yale system is a big upgrade from my HKC 812 panel. I now have comms and instant notifications and remote control, which I didn't have with the 812 and I now have a nice bright yellow bell box out front which I didn't have with the "professionally" installed HKC 812 system.
2011 wrote: » Agreed. This is not typical of windows fitted to domestic installations though.
2011 wrote: » I would describe your Yale alarm as having some important features that the old HKC didn't have, however that does not mean that it is anything like the quality of the dated HKC it is replacing. When I see a Yale bellbox I instantly conclude that an amateur has installed low quality, budget alarm that constantly generates false alarms in a half ar$ed attempt to "protect" a home :D More often than not I am correct on this. I take your point entirely that "professionally" installed HKC 812 system should have had a bellbox. Like you I am disappointed by the standard of install of so many "professionally" installed alarm systems.
bk wrote: » Hopefully the same concepts will eventually come here too.
BTW I've already got my Yale working with SmartThings, Google Home voice control, IFTTT, routines, etc.
A person breaking into my "amateur" install is going to be greeted by a cacophony of multiple loud sirens, flashing lights in every room, etc.
As for your comment on "budget", the savings I made over a HKC system, would allow me to buy a half dozen CCTV cameras and nice new ABS anti-bump lock from the front door and still have change left over for a bunch of other security enhancements around my home.
2011 wrote: » All nice things that every modern alarm should have in my opinion, but these features are more about convince, fun and entertainment than about security.
bk wrote: » On this point. I believe security systems need to be convenient and easy to use and yes perhaps even fun to be useful. A problem I see with alarm systems amongst my family and friends is that in reality they aren't really using them much, if at all. Maybe use them when they head out, but rarely if ever used when at home, even at night. Making a system more convenient and easy to use usually leads to people using it more often and of course an alarm system is only protecting you if actually used. For instance I've now worked my Yale system into my goodnight routine. I say "Hey Google, Goodnight" and: - My TV turns off - Lights turn off (after 60 seconds) - Heating switches off - Security cameras turns on And now, my Yale Alarm arms. I hadn't bothered to use my old HKC system overnight in years. Now my Yale is an easy and convenient part of my nightly routine and thus more secure. Another example of this is where the new Nest Alarm Systems notices when the home is empty and you haven't armed the alarm, it sends you a notification saying it looks like you forgot to arm the alarm and would you like to arm it. Brilliant and simple convenience IMO. Another example of where this is going in the long term is IP cameras that are running all the time and use facial recognition and AI to differentiate between people who are supposed to be there and a stranger. All without needing to arm/disarm/etc. Basically constant security monitoring with little effort. Of course an installer might not care about the above, he just wants to bang a box in, get paid and be on his way. But for those interested in actual useful security I think these sort of conveniences and even fun are important to actually make it work.
kub wrote: » See you saying something and arming your alarm does not comply with standards, that has to be done by a User code on a Keypad or on a Fob Keypad.
On a serious note and unless someone can convince me other wise, convenience and security are not bed fellows.
2011 wrote: So what?
