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Smart lights vs smart switches

AstraMonti

Hello,

I will be changing lights and switches and I am kinda debating on where to choose smart lights or switches.

I am more inclined to go with smart switches although I am going to lose the control of each bulb, which frankly i don't think i would use much.

Apart from sonoff, is there any other widely accepted and (fairly) cheap option out there that works with google home?

Thank you.

Edit: Before someone says, why not both, cost, cost is the answer.

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wexfordman2

AstraMonti wrote: »

Hello,

I will be changing lights and switches and I am kinda debating on where to choose smart lights or switches.

I am more inclined to go with smart switches although I am going to lose the control of each bulb, which frankly i don't think i would use much.

Apart from sonoff, is there any other widely accepted and (fairly) cheap option out there that works with google home?

Thank you.

Edit: Before someone says, why not both, cost, cost is the answer.

Are you re wiring ?

AstraMonti

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Are you re wiring ?

Not completely no, but changing all switches and adding some lights.

wexfordman2

AstraMonti wrote: »

Not completely no, but changing all switches and adding some lights.

Ok,

First off, if you can, I would go for a wired solution rather than wireless options.

Secondly, if you are rewiring, I would absolutely pit a cat5 cable to your light switches, and a neutral (can go into this later, but it gives you shedoada of options, and is cheap to do).

Thirdly, a golden rule with your solution, whatver it is, make sure it is two way, ie manual activation of the light switch will update the status of your light to the app/controlller/hub.

I am not sure if sonoff is 2way

AstraMonti

Thank you, the cost of rewiring is out of budget at the moment unfortunately. I am not too worried about the wifi, as it's going to be a mesh system so I am not expecting to have any signal holes around the place.

Thanks for the 2way tip, I wasn't aware that it didn't update. Can you suggest any other brands for switches?

Personally I'm of the opinion that Smart bulbs like Hue are preferable to smart switches. Gives you far more options then simple on/off and they are well worth it IMO.

The only downside of Hue IMO is if you really want traditional looking switches with them. They don't currently have a solution to that, though it is supposed to get sorted in a few months time as they are partnering with a few well known switch manufacturers to build a nice solution.

For options for Smart Switches, check out LightwaveRF switches. In particular their newer two way gen2 gear. Though it isn't cheap.

For putting a module behind a switch, then Fibaro Z-wave modules are well regarded. They have options both if you have Neutral and if not. You will need to pair them with a Z-wave hub like SmartThings.

wexfordman2

AstraMonti wrote: »

Thank you, the cost of rewiring is out of budget at the moment unfortunately. I am not too worried about the wifi, as it's going to be a mesh system so I am not expecting to have any signal holes around the place.

Thanks for the 2way tip, I wasn't aware that it didn't update. Can you suggest any other brands for switches?

Hi Astra

I think bk covered the smart switch options for wireless, eg z wave fibaro etc.

As your not re-wiring, it's irrelevant, but the cat5 to the wall switch was for lighting control not for wifi.

I'm planning to implement a solution this weekend where I can control a few hue lamps from my wall switch, as I have cat5 cable to it, will update once I have it done, think people will find it interesting.

On your WiFi mesh network, again, if you can go for wired backbone it will be much better, and also, take every opportunity you can to wire Ethernet to tv points etc, always.

AstraMonti

Thanks bk.

If I have this correctly, i am going to need around 35-40 bulbs. And these philips hue ones look like they cost about 50euro per pair
On the other hand, I am looking at about 15-18 switches maybe, at an average price of 25euro each (sonoff price). The price difference is about half for the switches. It's not a huge deal breaker, but going with the philips would mean extra money for compatible switches as well.

AstraMonti wrote: »

Thanks bk.

If I have this correctly, i am going to need around 35-40 bulbs. And these philips hue ones look like they cost about 50euro per pair
On the other hand, I am looking at about 15-18 switches maybe, at an average price of 25euro each (sonoff price). The price difference is about half for the switches. It's not a huge deal breaker, but going with the philips would mean extra money for compatible switches as well.

VERY IMPORTANT: Read the bit at the end about Sonoff switches and neutral.

Yes, with that many bulbs you'll need to do the maths.

However I'm not sure if sonoff is a good enough solution for this. I think it might be on the cheap side if you want reliable lighting, I remember them being down quiet a bit a few times, maybe others with experience of it can comment.

The good quality options like Fibaro and LightwaveRF are a lot more expensive then sonoff, so then the price difference is much less, if at all.

Of course something to think of, if you go Hue, you don't need to buy all the bulbs at the same time. You can do it over a few years, buying bulbs during sales. Which is what many of us have done. That may or may not suit you.

As you say though, the switch situation is not ideal for Hue at the moment. Though to be honest, once you buy into the Hue addiction, you soon realise your rarely use switches any more! It is all about motion sensors and routines and voice control.

BTW Those Sonoff switches, I just remembered what the problem with them is! They require neutral at the switch. Most older Irish homes don't have a neutral wire at the switch. You need to check all your switches to make sure they do. And BTW just because one does, doesn't mean they all do, it might be 50/50 as it is in my place.

BTW just to add wexfordman2's advice about running as much ethernet cable as you can and using it for your wifi access points and TV's, etc. is spot on.

If you can run lots of ethernet, you won't regret it.

Wireless Mesh is an oversold technology and only ok. Multiple wireless access points connected by Ethernet is much better. If you have to go down the Mesh route, then I'd recommend a triband solution like Netgear Orbi.

slayerking

With the smart bulbs also, one downside is price if you have alot of bulbs in a light fixture (or also if like me, you prefer having control over what bulbs you use - like how they look in the fixture e.g. using filament bulbs) but another one is that if someone switches off the light at the switch, your bulb is no longer smart - its offline.

SonOff are pretty good as they are cheap, but they require a neutral wire at the switch. As they are wifi switches, you can see the status in the app and it reflects what state the switch is in (i.e. if someone switches it on, and you open the app, you can see its on). Its wifi also, so no hub needed.

If you discover that your switches dont have neutrals, another option is Livolo. These are RF based. They have multiple gang/way switches so you can configure them in many ways (e.g. having a single light controlled from two different switches). They are relatively cheap also and look nice. To make them smart however, you'd also need an RF bridge, like Broadlink RM pro. This can learn any RF/IR code so you can control via the app, you can then set up scenes and also integrate with Google home then if desired.

Pros/cons to all solutions so its depending on what you want

AstraMonti

Guys I hear you about the ethernet ( I am in IT, we speak the same language

). The house is an 80s building with concrete walls, so it's very hard to run new cables without "destroying" part of the walls (no budget for that). I am trying to organize the ethernet for the key parts (NAS, htpc etc) but for the rest I am going to have to rely on the wifi.

As for the neutral, I would have to check this, not sure if there is one, usually there are two cables going on the light switches, right?

slayerking wrote: »

With the smart bulbs also, one downside is price if you have alot of bulbs in a light fixture (or also if like me, you prefer having control over what bulbs you use - like how they look in the fixture e.g. using filament bulbs) but another one is that if someone switches off the light at the switch, your bulb is no longer smart - its offline.

Yes, if you like unusual bulbs like filaments, then Hue is not suitable. However another way to look at it is that Hue can also be used for direction, using different coulours for splash of colour, etc. allows for fantastic, ever changing, decoration options. I find people are super impressed with the results.

As for the offline problem, I find in reality it just isn't. You quickly get use to never touching the light switch again and forget about it. You forget about light swithces completely with Hue IME

Also there are various solutions to covering the light switch.

Of course this issue should be solved completely soon with the upcoming Hue Switch partnership.

AstraMonti wrote: »

Guys I hear you about the ethernet ( I am in IT, we speak the same language ). The house is an 80s building with concrete walls, so it's very hard to run new cables without "destroying" part of the walls (no budget for that). I am trying to organize the ethernet for the key parts (NAS, htpc etc) but for the rest I am going to have to rely on the wifi.

Any chance you can run ethernet to the ceiling of a few rooms, using the attic or ceilings as a route? You can then place wireless access points like Ubiquiti sell on the ceiling, which is actually the ideal location for them.

Ethernet then running back to a central location where your broadband is, along with a switch, etc.

Would give you far better wireless performance then mesh wifi.

AstraMonti wrote: »

As for the neutral, I would have to check this, not sure if there is one, usually there are two cables going on the light switches, right?

Yes, two wire is normal here, Sonoff needs 3 wires, which is less common (but is there sometimes). See here for lots of info:

https://www.vesternet.com/resources/application-notes/apnt-23/

slayerking

bk wrote: »

As for the offline problem, I find in reality it just isn't. You quickly get use to never touching the light switch again and forget about it. You forget about light swithces completely with Hue IME

Also there are various solutions to covering the light switch.

I wasnt really speaking for myself getting used to not using the switches, I mostly use google home/schedules/sensors to control the lights tbh and the odd time the switch itself when its practical.
Speaking more about visitors to the house or if you live with non techy types that just want to use switches or are used to them. The switches are pretty idiot proof.

wexfordman2

slayerking wrote: »

With the smart bulbs also, one downside is price if you have alot of bulbs in a light fixture (or also if like me, you prefer having control over what bulbs you use - like how they look in the fixture e.g. using filament bulbs) but another one is that if someone switches off the light at the switch, your bulb is no longer smart - its offline.

SonOff are pretty good as they are cheap, but they require a neutral wire at the switch. As they are wifi switches, you can see the status in the app and it reflects what state the switch is in (i.e. if someone switches it on, and you open the app, you can see its on). Its wifi also, so no hub needed.

If you discover that your switches dont have neutrals, another option is Livolo. These are RF based. They have multiple gang/way switches so you can configure them in many ways (e.g. having a single light controlled from two different switches). They are relatively cheap also and look nice. To make them smart however, you'd also need an RF bridge, like Broadlink RM pro. This can learn any RF/IR code so you can control via the app, you can then set up scenes and also integrate with Google home then if desired.

Pros/cons to all solutions so its depending on what you want

Good to know the sonoff are 2 way, I wasn't sure tbh. So, does sonoff send a atauts update when it is manually activated, or does the app poll it's status when you first open it ?

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Yes, if you like unusual bulbs like filaments, then Hue is not suitable. However another way to look at it is that Hue can also be used for direction, using different coulours for splash of colour, etc. allows for fantastic, ever changing, decoration options. I find people are super impressed with the results.

As for the offline problem, I find in reality it just isn't. You quickly get use to never touching the light switch again and forget about it. You forget about light swithces completely with Hue IME

Also there are various solutions to covering the light switch.

Of course this issue should be solved completely soon with the upcoming Hue Switch partnership.

Any chance you can run ethernet to the ceiling of a few rooms, using the attic or ceilings as a route? You can then place wireless access points like Ubiquiti sell on the ceiling, which is actually the ideal location for them.

Ethernet then running back to a central location where your broadband is, along with a switch, etc.

Would give you far better wireless performance then mesh wifi.

Yes, two wire is normal here, Sonoff needs 3 wires, which is less common (but is there sometimes). See here for lots of info:

https://www.vesternet.com/resources/application-notes/apnt-23/

Perhaps consider a mixture, if I was in a situation like the op's and couldn't rewire, I would be going for smart switches (fibaro type) and use some hue colour bulbs in lamps etc for effect/colour etc.

slayerking wrote: »

I wasnt really speaking for myself getting used to not using the switches, I mostly use google home/schedules/sensors to control the lights tbh and the odd time the switch itself when its practical.
Speaking more about visitors to the house or if you live with non techy types that just want to use switches or are used to them. The switches are pretty idiot proof.

I use the Hue switch above the light switches and just cover the light switches. Grandparents, baby sitters seem to have no problems at all using that. Haven't gotten any complaints.

And of course the real light switch still works for them if they do use it. Only slightly annoying you having to reset it after getting home. Depends on how often you have people like this around.

Depending which cover you use it might look better or worse, depends on your taste. The molds that cover the switch with the actual Hue Switch are probably the best in terms of looks, but they are all the most expensive. I just use less then €2 plug cover from China, do the job fine and don't even notice them now.

Of course Hue will have switches too in a few months, so that should solve the problem for people who feel strongly about it.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Perhaps consider a mixture, if I was in a situation like the op's and couldn't rewire, I would be going for smart switches (fibaro type) and use some hue colour bulbs in lamps etc for effect/colour etc.

Absolutely, even if you get smart switches, no problem adding Hue lights later if you want. Only thing the switch might have been a waste then, but so be it.

I will say though, that there is a real value in having White Ambiance in every room I find. Colour is nice to have, but I could take or leave it, but I wouldn't be without white ambiance now.

AstraMonti

Good morning guys, thanks for your valuable insight.
So if the house does not have a neutral available, the sonoff are a no go. What other options are available that don't break the bank?

AstraMonti wrote: »

Good morning guys, thanks for your valuable insight.
So if the house does not have a neutral available, the sonoff are a no go. What other options are available that don't break the bank?

The only solutions that have an option not to use neutral are the Fibaro modules or LightwaveRF, but they are both on the more expensive end of things.

Actually I forgot about the Xiaomi switch, I think you can get a version that doesn't require neutral, I think this is it, but you'd need to double check:

https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_625774.html?wid=1433363#goodsDetail

You need to use it with a SmartThings hub, requires a bit of configuring of that.

If money is tight, perhaps just put in cheap standard switches and LED lights for now. Put Hue bulbs where you can for now and then you can do room by room based on priority what you need. You could also later replace the switches with the new Hue ones once they come out.

wexfordman2

AstraMonti wrote: »

Good morning guys, thanks for your valuable insight.
So if the house does not have a neutral available, the sonoff are a no go. What other options are available that don't break the bank?

I think most, if not all of the solutions that don't require a neutral are dimmable switches as well, I can't recall seeing one that is not dimmable, and I recall from my days using x10 the logic was than with no neutral, you had to have a low trickle of current flowing through all the time if there was no neutral.

slayerking

AstraMonti wrote: »

Good morning guys, thanks for your valuable insight.
So if the house does not have a neutral available, the sonoff are a no go. What other options are available that don't break the bank?

Livolo also are an option. No neutral required. They are RF switches, so you can control them via an RF remote. In order to make them smart, you can use an RF Bridge to WiFi like broadlink RM pro (about 40 quid and also bridges IR to WiFi so can control TV and other IR stuff). Integrates with Google home also.
The downside to the RF (vs sonoff WiFi ones) is that its not possible to see the current state the switch is in. E.g if its on, you can't tell via an app. You can just send commands to toggle a gang. Or turn a gang off.
They are nice looking switches also, nice subtle glow off them.

If you are going to consider one way options, Energenie is another option. Though personally I feel one way isn't great for reliability. I'd aim for two way gear if you can.

paulbok

Don't forget there are hue compatible switches coming out later this year which should be worth keeping an eye on, if you can hold on till then of course.

superleedsdub

I have been using a combination of Fibaro dimmer 2 modules with smartthings ( I have the fibaro home centre light but smartthings is far more customisable) for over a year now with no issues. The hardest thing I found with them was finding room in the back box behind the switch. I use retractive switches that I got from a local electrical wholesaler.

For me, the benefits of this are better than hue as it costs far less and you still retain the smart capabilities no matter if the switch is on or off. For example, in my living room I have one module installed behind a single switch, I have 12 LED downlighters in that room. Currently based on amazon pricing it costs £44 for a fibaro dimmer module and £36 for a twinpack of white gu10 hue bulbs. I`m not looking for colour bulbs personally.

I`d also look at smartthings with any of the options you go for, loads of fun to be had customising your setup

Metric Tensor

Bit late to the party on this one. I posted about my own Fibaro Dimmer 2 module previously. It may be of some help:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105790836&postcount=45

Still only have the one but I'm very happy with it and have since added Fibaro switches to my Central Heating set up too. I will be adding to my lighting ones as time progresses.

realitykeeper

I gave up chasing technology a long time ago so IOT is out of the question. I prefer to save for things that don`t go out of date or depreciate. Such things are recorded in deeds that are usually stored in some dusty old notary`s office, or with a solicitor but not online so therefore they are unhackable.

Metric Tensor

A perfect fit for this forum so!

realitykeeper wrote: »

I gave up chasing technology a long time ago so IOT is out of the question. I prefer to save for things that don`t go out of date or depreciate. Such things are recorded in deeds that are usually stored in some dusty old notary`s office, or with a solicitor but not online so therefore they are unhackable.

Until the dusty old office burns down in a fire due to the lack of modern fire prevention, monitoring and control technology

Actually a massive amount of deeds and paper records were lost all throughout Europe during the world wars.

paulbok

bk wrote: »

Until the dusty old office burns down in a fire due to the lack of modern fire prevention, monitoring and control technology

Actually a massive amount of deeds and paper records were lost all throughout Europe during the world wars.

And all the census records during the Irish civil war.
If they only had Nest protect.
"there is smoke in the 4 courts, the alarm may sound, the alarm is loud.":D

realitykeeper

bk wrote: »

Until the dusty old office burns down in a fire due to the lack of modern fire prevention, monitoring and control technology

Actually a massive amount of deeds and paper records were lost all throughout Europe during the world wars.

The first wave of a modern day world war is likely to be a cyber attack or perhaps a nuclear explosion in space designed to destroy all ungrounded electronics. So electronic wealth is more vulnerable in the early stages of war.

The high horse brigade

realitykeeper wrote: »

The first wave of a modern day world war is likely to be a cyber attack or perhaps a nuclear explosion in space designed to destroy all ungrounded electronics. So electronic wealth is more vulnerable in the early stages of war.